I win, biatch.

[Username17]

Thank goodness for the Blighter! Blighters can worship Boccob if they want, and get a 5th level spell slot to sacrifice at Blighter level 5. That means that the UMD DC to use a Tome of Ancient Lore is only 25.

You can use that trick for all kinds of things, especially if you are an Artificer or Warlock. While a Wizard would not be able to cast Wish until level 17, a Sublime Chord could theoretically do it at level 9. That would still be at least character level 15 under normal circumstances - but UMD actually only cares about how many class levels you need of the relevent class. So does the minimum caster level for magic items.

Then you can use the UMD result to mimic a relevant caster level and cast your spells at normal caster level.

So to encapsulate: the cost to make a Staff of Blasphemy at minimum (Ur Priest) caster level is 18,375 gp and 1470 xp. The Use Magic Device DC to kill Hextor with it is 88.

-Username17

[User3]

1103229043[/unixtime]]Yes it does. There is, unfortunately, no way to cast Sniper's Eye without having a spellbook with Sniper's Eye in it.

However, you do get a spellbook of your own, like a Wizard, and therefore get 20 bonus spells off of any arcane spell list on your personal list - which should get you most of the stuff you really need.

-Username17

(Bolding emphasis is mine) --- What is Frank talking about here? 20 bonus spells for the Chamelon? That does not jibe with the description of the Chameleon's text.

[Username17]

What is Frank talking about here? 20 bonus spells for the Chamelon?

You prepare and cast these spells just as a wizard does, including the use of a spellbook

Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook
...
Spells Gained at a New Level: Wizard's peform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character gains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. These two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast.

Now, you could argue that the use of a spellbook as a wizard does not entitle her to learn spells into her spellbook as a wizard - but that's an extremely weak case. If you use a spellbook as a wizard, that's in all ways like a wizard - and that means you get two free spells every level. That's part of the rules for "arcane magical writings", not just part of the Wizard class.

And while it does say "wizard this" and "wizard that" - it does so for the entire Arcane Magical Writings section. Similarly, the section on Spontaneous Casters refers specifically to Sorcerers and Bards - and not to Warmages or Shugenja. Wizards are the only class in the basic book that requires the use of arcane magical writings.

No, the only thing that would even slightly bolster the case for Chameleons not getting their own spellbook is this passage:

chameleons often use stolen or borrowed spellbooks

But:

1> That's essentially flavor text.
and
2> That doesn't say they exclusively use stolen or borrowed spellbooks - as they would be forced to do if they were somehow exempt from the normal rules of spell acquisition.

-Username17

[Wrenfield]

Just to note, the PGtF, FRCS, and Magic of Faerun books all have some pretty darn good Domain spells and "Initiate" spells that are only available to people who choose certain domains or feats.

They are worth taking for the Chameleon, since these spells are often costed on the cheap to give back to those who made the character resource investment.

Look at spells like Battletide (PGtF), Thornspray (PGtF), and Spider Curse (FRCS).

[User3]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH oh boy. You guys rule.

Keep up the good work...I am always up for a laugh

[Oberoni]

So anyways, the Chameleon does seem to be rather fun. Anyone have any nice build ideas? I don't mean über-cheese that can kill gods by 20th level or anything--just some fun and effective builds that you think play off the Chameleon's strengths.

[Username17]

So you don't mean taking the feats of Infernal Pact and Wealth and then reassigning the Chameleon Bonus feat to "Magic Item" in order to get charged items out of hell every day?

Or recasting Curse of Lycanthropy on yourself like fifty times so that you simultaneously have Epic feats and have an ECL of like 14?

Basically, the book wants you to walk in there as a Bard. Alternately, you could walk in as a Rogue/Caster. Either way you can pump up the crazy when you eventually jump out into a caster PrC. While Chameleon forbids you from using the Chameleon casting to qualify for things - it doesn't forbid you from using the caster levels blandished upon you by classes like Blood Magus to add to your Chameleon Casting. Also, you can bypass those stupid feat requirements by switching your feat into part of the prereqs of a class and then pulling them out once you have the first level.

Making long range plans is hard, because eventually you are going to hit the wall where you run out of Blood Magusing to take, and your Chameleon class features don't qualify you for anything you want. But that's so far distant (as in, it's pretty easy to arrange this sort of thing all the way up to 20th level) that in casual play you don't care. Seriously, while "this build is gefuct at level 32", you don't care.

-Username17

[User3]

1106032920[/unixtime]]So anyways, the Chameleon does seem to be rather fun. Anyone have any nice build ideas? I don't mean über-cheese that can kill gods by 20th level or anything--just some fun and effective builds that you think play off the Chameleon's strengths.

Illumian
Artificer [Ebr] 5/Ardent dilettante [Pln] 1/Chameleon [RoD] 7
1:Art 1 |-----------|+0 |0/0/2|1d6
5:Art 5 |-----------|+3 |1/1/4|5d6
6:Art 5/AD 1 |------|+3 |1/3/4|5d6+1d8
7:Art 5/AD 1/Cham 1 |+3 |1/3/4|5d6+2d8
13:Art 5/AD 1/Cham 7|+8 |3/5/6|5d6+8d8

Feats~ 1(Level: Able learner [PGtF], Artificer: Scribe scroll), 2(Artificer: Brew potion), 3(Level: Extraordinary artisan, Artificer: Craft wonderous item), 4(Artificer: Legendary artisan), 5(Artificer: Craft arms and armor), 6(Level: OPEN), 8(Chameleon: ANY), 9(Level:OPEN), 12(Level:OPEN).

Sigils: Krau and Uur (Caster level +1 up to CL, Dex & Dex skill checks +1, UurKrau runeword: Dex for spells/day).

Infusions: 1:3+/2:3+/3:1+.


Either that or go Human and take Mercantile background [PGtF].

Ya, I just can't get over this build. It has some possible cheese, but is mainly just really versatile.

[User3]

Why Ardent Dilettante? Just for the skills access with Able Learner? Bleh ...

I don't see how this build can rock..

[Username17]

Yeah, I agree. Taking a level of "+1 to Listen Checks" just so that you can spend your skill points however you want is seriously no big deal.

-Username17

[User3]

1106177848[/unixtime]]Yeah, I agree. Taking a level of "+1 to Listen Checks" just so that you can spend your skill points however you want is seriously no big deal.

-Username17

[User3]

Should have been more clear, sorry.

Able learner = Cross class skills cost 1 skill point for 1 rank.

Ardent dilettante =
1) +1 Listen, Search, Sense motive, & Spot +1 competence (like, no magic item stacking).
2) Bardic lore.
3) A class skill list that includes every skill ever. Which is what lets you qualify (as an Artificer) for Chameleon.
4) Oh ya, and no entry requirements to speak of (although there are advancement requirements).

[User3]

1106257248[/unixtime]]Should have been more clear, sorry.

Able learner = Cross class skills cost 1 skill point for 1 rank.

Ardent dilettante =
1) +1 Listen, Search, Sense motive, & Spot +1 competence (like, no magic item stacking).
2) Bardic lore.
3) A class skill list that includes every skill ever. Which is what lets you qualify (as an Artificer) for Chameleon.
4) Oh ya, and no entry requirements to speak of (although there are advancement requirements).

Still, your build does not look strong at all compared to other 13th level primary specllasters. For a 5th party member, it looks good. But hell, so is a Bard.

i just dont see this build fulfilling the need of one of the iconic roles for a party of four.

[User3]

1106259522[/unixtime]]Still, your build does not look strong at all compared to other 13th level primary specllasters. For a 5th party member, it looks good. But hell, so is a Bard.

i just dont see this build fulfilling the need of one of the iconic roles for a party of four.

It get Lesser planar binding and Planar binding at same levels as the wizard (9th and 11th).
Plus Trapfinding (with Wieldskill and Divine insight at level 7), great item creation, Hunter's mercy (level 7), good skill ranks in great skills (UMD, Autohypnosis), and artificer Infusions up to level 3 (Personal weapon augmentation, Skill enhancement, Spell storing item, Metamagic item, Power surge, and Supress requirement). And a bunch of other stuff that you may or may not feel is worthwhile.

If you aren't impressed by Artificer and Rogue builds, I guess this build may not be impressive either (It is basically both with spells to replace most scrolls).

[User3]

Oh my Diety in the Heavens..

Sometimes I wonder about the people that play D&D.

I've read through the class. You people are interpreting the Chameleon class FAR too loosely.

First off, it's more than obvious that you can only mimic the BEGINNING CLASSES. No prestige classes here. Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Mage, Paladin, and Sorceror ONLY. These are the only classes who's features you can imitate.

Second, you are not gaining CLASS FEATURES! You are MIMICKING SOME of the class abilities to forward your versatility. This means you get none of the class features that you are not emulating. You do NOT get 2 free spells per level as a mage. You do NOT gain any domains or domain spells as a cleric.

This class is versatile as heck, and ideal for people who love versatility, like myself, but do not mistake yourself. You will never be as powerful as a full version of any of the classes.

[Username17]

First off, it's more than obvious that you can only mimic the BEGINNING CLASSES. No prestige classes here. Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Mage, Paladin, and Sorceror ONLY. These are the only classes who's features you can imitate.

No. That isn't what it says at all. You don't even get to mimic classes at all. You just get to choose which "focus" you have and get exactly the abilities the class says that you get, nothing more.

However, the Arcane Focus says:

You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen form the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class.

You don't get the ability to mimic a Sorcerer at anything, you just get to prepare and cast spells from any arcane spellcasting class. Any class means any class. Duskblade? Demonologist? Sure, whatever.

The Chameleon can do both more and less than copying any core class. His abilities to get the actual abilities of the core classes is restricted to what the class says it does. But he also has the explicit ability to copy spellcasting from non-core classes - so long as he uses that spellcasting like a Wizard or a Druid.

:shrug:

-Username17

[Book]

2 of the most popular build methodologies for Chameleons are:

1. Maximizing that Ability Boon class ability to cram as many stacking benefits onto that final +6 Comp. Bonus to the given stat. This includes other stat-synergized feats and classes/PrCs in the other 10 levels of your 20 level build.

2. When choosing Chameleon spellcaster options, be sure to select (or get a spellbook full of) spells from selected class/PrC spell lists that have comparatively lower levels than traditional users of that spell. For example, there's a PrC out there that lets you cast Charm Monster as a 2nd level spell (instead of the traditional 4th level spell as listed on the Sorc/Wiz list). A higher level Chameleon casting a bunch of these type of spells gets a lot of bang for the buck.

[Josh_Kablack]

I've read through the class. You people are interpreting the Chameleon class FAR too loosely.

What parts of the following direct quotes are you suggesting are being misinterpreted:

"You gain the ability to prepare and cast arcane spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any arcane spellcasting class" ,
"You gain the ability to prepare and cast divine spells, which may be chosen from the spell list of any divine spellcasting class."
and "Your caster level is equal to twice your class level" ?

How can you possibly understand those differently than I do?

I mean those three right there are enough for me to classify this class as broken and disallow it in any game I ever run, and are pretty good evidence that the authors weren't considering the implications of their work, but I don't see how you can claim they say other than what they say?

First off, it's more than obvious that you can only mimic the BEGINNING CLASSES.
No prestige classes here. Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Mage, Paladin, and Sorceror ONLY. These are the only classes who's features you can imitate.

What are you even talking about?
You get a set list of exactly five class features you can imitate under Mimic Class Feature. Nobody here ever disputed that. However, under Aptitude Focus, you'll note that the Arcane Focus and Divine Focus contain wording (quoted above) that allow a chameleon to pick and choose off of the spell list of **any** Arcane or Divine spellcasting class. Note the totally lack of restrictions on that. You can pick and choose lists from any class, be it Core, Base, or Prestige - because that's what "any" means when there are no other restrictions listed. And while you totally do not get domains, you totally can cast any clerical domain spell from level 1-6, because any those spells are on a the list of a Divine Spellcasting class. So you don't really care that you don't get domains or domain spells, because you can choose to prepare spells off of any domain list that is in your game.

I agree with you, it's pretty bad, and it's probably not design intent, but that's how the class is currently written. If you want to houserule it into sanity, I'm with you all the way, but don't pretend that the class description says things it doesn't.

[The_Matthew]

1106173174[/unixtime]]

1106032920[/unixtime]]So anyways, the Chameleon does seem to be rather fun. Anyone have any nice build ideas? I don't mean über-cheese that can kill gods by 20th level or anything--just some fun and effective builds that you think play off the Chameleon's strengths.

Illumian
Artificer [Ebr] 5/Ardent dilettante [Pln] 1/Chameleon [RoD] 7
1:Art 1 |-----------|+0 |0/0/2|1d6
5:Art 5 |-----------|+3 |1/1/4|5d6
6:Art 5/AD 1 |------|+3 |1/3/4|5d6+1d8
7:Art 5/AD 1/Cham 1 |+3 |1/3/4|5d6+2d8
13:Art 5/AD 1/Cham 7|+8 |3/5/6|5d6+8d8

Feats~ 1(Level: Able learner [PGtF], Artificer: Scribe scroll), 2(Artificer: Brew potion), 3(Level: Extraordinary artisan, Artificer: Craft wonderous item), 4(Artificer: Legendary artisan), 5(Artificer: Craft arms and armor), 6(Level: OPEN), 8(Chameleon: ANY), 9(Level:OPEN), 12(Level:OPEN).

Sigils: Krau and Uur (Caster level +1 up to CL, Dex & Dex skill checks +1, UurKrau runeword: Dex for spells/day).

Infusions: 1:3+/2:3+/3:1+.


Either that or go Human and take Mercantile background [PGtF].

Ya, I just can't get over this build. It has some possible cheese, but is mainly just really versatile.

One problem with this build: You can't have Able Learner as an Illuman, well and can't be a chameleon.

[Neeek]

1147987832[/unixtime]]

One problem with this build: You can't have Able Learner as an Illuman, well and can't be a chameleon.

Well, you can. It just requires a flaw to get Human Hertiage.

[The_Matthew]

Which is a wasted flaw, since you could instead use it for perfect multiweapon fighting or some such crazy thing...

[Neeek]

Upon further consideration of my grappling sorcerer, I've concluded I'd be better off going Psychic Warrior(with a level in Trickery/Planning Cleric to qualify for the Cham and to Divine Persist DP later) into Chameleon. I lost track of my grapple bonus at +30 at 8th level without polymorphing. I'm going to have to total it all up.

[Username17]

Illumians have the human subtype and count as Human for the purposes of qualifying for things. If for some reason that's important to you.

-Username17

[User3]

Just thought I'd say, in retrospect you were totally right in dropping the AD level, provided there is a way to qualify for Chameleon as an Artificer 5 without it.

[Lago_AM3P]

Any possible way to abuse lycantrophy with this build to get epic-level feats?