Look at this bullshit closet troll!

[Sir Neil]

Our 9th level party cut through a wall in Tome of Horrors and found this fucker hiding behind the wall. The monk and paladin died from stupidity before I could get line of effect and bypass him with grease, Kyle's Green Tentacles, and DM pity.

MUTANT FOUR-ARMED GARGOYLE CR 11
CE Large humanoid (earth)
Init -1; Senses Listen +12, Spot +12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
AC 21, touch 8, flat-footed 21
hp 199 (21 HD); DR 10/—
Fort +17, Ref +5, Will +6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee 4 claws +24 (2d8+10) and
bite +22 (2d6+5) and
gore +22 (2d6+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +15; Grp +29
Atk Options rend, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great
Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder,
Power Attack
Special Actions freeze, skills
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 30, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10
Feats Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great
Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder,
Multiattack, Power Attack
Skills Listen +12, Spot +12, Hide +9*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rend (Ex) If the four-armed mutant gargoyle
hits with two or more claw attacks, it briefly
latches onto the opponent’s body and tears
the flesh. This attack automatically deals an
extra 2d8+20 points of damage.
Freeze (Ex) A gargoyle can hold itself so still it
appears to be a statue. An observer must
succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice the
gargoyle is really alive.
Skills Gargoyles have a +2 racial bonus on Hide,
Listen, and Spot checks. *The Hide bonus
increases by +8 when a gargoyle is concealed
against a background of stone

[Josh_Kablack]

Ugh, say hello to 100+ points of damage per round in melee on a critter with passable ambush chances. That's ugly for a lvl 9 party.

Of course, the last time I played a level 9 character, that group would have scouted the entire dungeon with Arcane Eye, then had someone scouting with Invisibility, then sent a summoned monster, Major Image or Hyponotic Pattern in where they even suspected a ambush, and after that, maybe we would have sent a cohort in to check it out, and then Teleported back to town as soon as a monster killed the cohort. Sadly, monsters like this just go to show that not using such game-slowing tactics is a major error.

On the upside:

humanoid (earth)

Best target ever for Charm Person

[Catharz]

Almost as bad as the giant crab

[erik]

I dunno.

That's nasty, true, but it's CR 11 as well. There's worse stuff to face at CR 11 that aren't even dragons. A dread wraith could almost as quickly do in a party, and could also get the drop on them. A pair of colossal animated chains or rugs would be a hoot (grapple, constrict, crushes the entire party). A Hezrou could have waded on in, nauseating party members while throwing down weakening blasphemies (and paralyzing any 8th level characters around).

So yah, that gargoyle isn't too out of line.

With a will save of +6 and ref of +5, it is easy fodder for a wizard. Now if the gargoyle waits to take out the wizard first, and then proceeds to wail on the party, that's a bad day. This encounter as described sounds more like as Neil says, dying from stupidity.

If you're cutting through a wall in a dungeon, expect a nasty ambush on the other side. They've usually received enough warning to prepare a warm welcome.

The humanoid subtype on it is either an error (as gargoyles are monstrous humanoids) or a stupid alteration intended for balance (so that it is even more vulnerable to will save spells... of course no party should expect this since gargoyles are normally immune to charm person, hold person, etc.).

[User3]

Also, since it was an ambush situation, the EL would be 13. That's 4 higher than the PCs level, so it's no surprise that a PC or two got dropped by this thing.

What I have to ask is, where is the Improved Grab? This guy cries out for it!

And you want a serious closet troll? Colossal Monstrous Scorpion...

[josephbt]

There's worse stuff to face at CR 11 that aren't even dragons. A dread wraith could almost as quickly do in a party, and could also get the drop on them. A pair of colossal animated chains or rugs would be a hoot (grapple, constrict, crushes the entire party).

Err, dread wraiths, shmread wraiths. You get a save against their CON drain. And their dmg is 2d6. Whatever. And if they try to use Spring Attack, they get offd with readied actions.
Colossal objects on the other hand have been the demise of party characters more than once. Damn carpets with Imp grab and Constrict and Suffocation. Ditto for chains.

[erik]

1168703663[/unixtime]]
Err, dread wraiths, shmread wraiths. You get a save against their CON drain. And their dmg is 2d6. Whatever. And if they try to use Spring Attack, they get offd with readied actions.

DC 25 Fort is nothing to sneeze at for many characters, and Dread Wraiths have 17 Int, so guerilla tactics wherein they take out the less hardy-looking party members first isn't totally out of line.

I will grant that the last one I fought was a beefed up version that got 5 HP back for each point of Con it drained. That was a bitch, and probably colors my expectations of them some.

[Cielingcat]

1168679514[/unixtime]]Almost as bad as the giant crab

And with DR 10/-, you can barely even hit the weak point for massive damage.

On the bright side, it's hiding skills aren't ridiculously high for it's CR. On the dark side, it moves faster than you. It also flies, so you can't just rape it with ranged attacks.

Remember that if it was a Monstrous Humanoid, it would have a BAB 6 points higher. Since it's attacks are calculated for a BAB of +15 instead of +21, we have to assume they did that on purpose.

[josephbt]

Yeah, now that i think of it, i remember some pretty high rolls being made against those wraiths. Still, mine didn't heal abnormal amounts of HPs.

[Nytmare]

Of course, the last time I played a level 9 character, that group would have scouted the entire dungeon with Arcane Eye, then had someone scouting with Invisibility, then sent a summoned monster, Major Image or Hyponotic Pattern in where they even suspected a ambush, and after that, maybe we would have sent a cohort in to check it out, and then Teleported back to town as soon as a monster killed the cohort.

That might be the dumbest idea I've ever heard in my entire life.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Mind explaining why you think that's dumb?

Saying something is dumb is easy, I can do that. For example:

"Nytemare's post is the dumbest post in this thread"

That's easy. But to give REASONS shy something is dumb? Harder.

For example: "Nytemare's post doesn't really contain any information that would further a debate, and instead decides to just slam someone pointlessly"


You see, I actually had to think about what I was saying that time. Much harder.

[Nytmare]

Mind explaining why you think that's dumb?

Sorry, that's my way of saying hi to Josh. I would have been the Major Image and/or the Hypnotic Pattern in his example.

Now, following in the footsteps of my previous example, I'll say that your post is the dumbest idea I've ever heard in my entire life.

[Catharz]

[MrWaeseL]

I think this is shaping up to be the dumbest thread ever.

Image deleted - fbmf
DURRR

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Enough sniping at one another.
[/TGFBS]

[Endovior]

It's hardly dumb to use Scry-and-Die against random dungeon inhabitants... if you have the means, why not use them? It's a viable tactic to ambush and slay absolutely every enemy you ever meet, and fortune favors the paranoid in practice.

Of course, most people I know find that a horribly boring way to play... hence the 'dumb' remarks, unless I miss my guess completely. Being that cautious is TIME-CONSUMING, and that makes the game less fun. However, it IS the best way to defeat your enemies. Indeed, the best strategies for doing anything are typically the least fun; the very process of employing a 'best strategy' is one that negates spontaneity and adventure in favor of predictable, straightforward progress... which is comparatively more boring, and thus less fun.

For reference (since the concept is similar), here's the best (and, by connotation, least fun) strategy for looting a dungeon.

The stupidest PC, and therefore the least likely to detect anything, is placed on guard.
The bodies are piled in a corner. They'll be looted last.
Every stick of furniture in the room is checked for secret compartments, then for magic. If any are found, they are dealt with. After that, every item, no matter how innocuous, is smashed to tiny splinters, and the splinters examined. They are then thrown out of the room to get them out of the way.
(Sidenote: Yes, all this takes a while. But what's time to a munchkin? If the DM tells them they are getting hungry, the munchkins can point out that the room is full of almost-nutritious monster corpses awaiting only the cleric's purify food and drink spell. If wandering monsters appear, their experience points, bodies, and loot go into the pile. We don't see a problem here, and neither should the DM; if this is handled properly, the munchkins may spend the whole session in one room.)
Heavier items are given the same treatment. Anything that can be smashed is. Anything that cannot be smashed will have to prove it. The trash is thrown out of the room. any carpeting or wood flooring is ripped up as carefully as possible and the back checked for maps or writing. It is them torn to bits, and the bits examined for hidden items, and so on until bare rock is reached. If earth floor is reached, it is systematically dug up to a depth of a foot, more if the slightest sign of a previous disturbance is detected. Everything removed is thrown out of the room.
Likewise, any wall coverings are removed as carefully as possible, and treated in the same way.
The thief checks every square foot of the bare floor, and every square foot of bare wall, and every square foot of ceiling for hidden compartments. If necessary (and it will be, if he's a halfling), he is hoisted on another PC's shoulders to do so.
The wizard checks every square foot of floor, and every square foot of wall, and every square foot of the ceiling for magic. If necessary, he is likewise hoisted on another PC's shoulders.
The dwarf conducts a similar check for hidden doors, slanted floors, and anything else that dwarves can detect in the current edition of the rules.
Now the room is, in theory, completely swept. Time to attend to the bodies. First the weapons are checked, and checked again, for magic, and the character with the highest applicable skill determines whether any of the weapons have nonmagical bonuses. If experimentation is necessary, there are bodies handy. Any jewel on a weapon is examined very carefully in case it may be a switch, a latch to a hidden compartment, or the handle of a removable blade or other item. Otherwise-ordinary weapons that have jewels or precious-metal are stripped for easier carrying unless the party's burden is currently very light.
Then jewelry is given the same treatment. All jewelry is treated as treasure and carried along undamaged, even if it seems to be base metal and no magic can be detected, because it is very light, and you never know...
(Sidenote: If anybody has speak with dead, the intelligent monsters in the body pile can be asked for suggestions as to which room should be visited next. Be sure to cross-examine them both as to the loot that can be gained, and the challenge rating of the inhabitants.)
Then the clothing and armor is removed and examined. Individual items are checked for magic and then for hidden writing. Anything not magical gets the tear-to-bits treatment. However, being bloody and therefore likely to attract vermin, the clothing is not thrown outside unless the door guard is bored and wants to pick up some cheap XP.
The hair and fur of the naked corpses is combed carefully. Vermin are discarded, hidden treasure is kept. Tattoos are examined very carefully and subjected to detect magic. If it seems advisable, they are added to the treasure heap.
If the monsters possess useful or valuable fur or body parts - the wizard should again be consulted - these body parts are now removed. The investigation of the corpses now proceeds to their interior. Intelligent monsters are suspected of having swallowed treasure or otherwise secreted it about their person. Unintelligent monsters are suspected of having swallowed treasure-laden victims. In either case, the entire gastrointestinal tract of each corpse must be thoroughly investigated. The party will have, of course, brought along a small strainer for this purpose.
The rest of the monster should then be cut into bits small enough that no internal hiding place will be missed. The offal is thrown into the corner, rather then outside the room, unless the party is specifically trying to attract monsters.
The room has now been thoroughly searched; it's a bare cube of rock containing nothing but a pile of bloody meat and - if the munchkins are having a good day - a pile of treasure. Throughout the process, all items found will have been placed in a pile where everyone can see them and nothing can find its way into the wrong pocket before division of the spoils.
The party now apportions the goods. Magical or otherwise empowered devices are given to the munchkin who can use them best or needs them the most; this may lead to bitter argument or negotiation. Very valuable or portable items are divided as evenly as possible by value, so that in the event of panicked flight, everyone will have a worthwhile pocketful of treasure. Mysterious but fairly light stuff (eg; arcane tattoos flayed from dead wizards) is divided amongst the munchkins as well, but only to carry, not to own... it will be examined by experts once the surface is reached. Heavier loot is not divided, but simply piled onto the party's hirelings or pack beasts; to be cashed in and divided later.
On to the next room!

[Nytmare]

I was being sarcastic. I was in the group. I was one of the three extremely cautious, unheroic, and greedy mages who spent all their time coming up with ways to avoid any kind of real conflict.

I was one of the people who sat through 8 months of people telling us that a party of wizards in "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" was stupid and that it would never work. That you couldn't have a party in that game that wasn't fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue and that it was in fact, "the dumbest idea they had ever heard in their entire life."

I was also the person who mistakenly believed that Kablack would have been one of the first people to see my post and would have responded in his time-tested and mother approved snarky fashion.

[Josh_Kablack]

Hi Dave!!

You're Wrong!!

I was one of the three extremely cautious, unheroic, and greedy mages who spent all their time coming up with ways to avoid any kind of real conflict.

There were four, you're forgetting about "Yellow" MacGregor