The Gaming Den

MOD EDIT: Split from the Touch Attack Thread

If your DM puts any value into what the FAQ/Sage Advice says, what Eagle posted won't work.

FAQ (December 20, 2006 version), page 16 wrote:Can a rogue with skill mastery take 10 on a Use Magic Device check?

No. The rogue’s skill mastery class feature states that “she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.” This only applies to skills that allow a character to take 10 in nonstressful situations; if a skill simply doesn’t allow a character to take 10 under any circumstances (such as Use Magic Device), skill mastery provides no benefit.

I also thought there was a ruling about UMD not allowing you to emulate the ability to cast spells, but I can't find it so it's possible I'm imagining that ruling.

Since his DM is still living in 2e I doubt he has heard of the sage

Whatever:

PHB, p. 51 wrote:When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.

Complete Arcane, p. 8 wrote:When making a Use Magic Device check, a warlock can take 10 even if distracted or threatened.

The Sage can lick my balls. The wording on Skill Mastery is the same as the wording on Deceive Item. So if Skill Mastery doesn't work for UMD, then Deceive Item doesn't work at all, for anything, because it's just Skill Mastery for a single skill: which in turn happens to be UMD.

-Username17

To be honest, i seriously don't care what The Sage wrote. That guy know less about current rules edition than me.
How is that bloody possible? It's what he does. That's his job - to know the rules.
Just take a look at wild shape, awaken, polymorph(the part about your everchanging HDs) or the warlock part of faq. Pure pain, destilled just for you. So basically, what Frank wrote.

Customer Service is even better. You can make them say blatantly contradictory things by leading the questions

Leading the questions? You can do it just by asking them the same exact question multiple times.

Maybe he's saying you can get them to contradict themselves in one long answer? Because I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Oh yeah, they do that too.

and don't you just love it when they quote a page and line, and then when you look there - it's NOT the right page. wtf?

Personally, I'm fond of when they or the Sage quote some rule and then say something that's contrary to what the rule says.

Zherog at [unixtime wrote:1169150303[/unixtime]]If your DM puts any value into what the FAQ/Sage Advice says, what Eagle posted won't work.

FAQ (December 20, 2006 version), page 16 wrote:Can a rogue with skill mastery take 10 on a Use Magic Device check?

No. The rogue’s skill mastery class feature states that “she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.” This only applies to skills that allow a character to take 10 in nonstressful situations; if a skill simply doesn’t allow a character to take 10 under any circumstances (such as Use Magic Device), skill mastery provides no benefit.

I also thought there was a ruling about UMD not allowing you to emulate the ability to cast spells, but I can't find it so it's possible I'm imagining that ruling.

Well, you could just take 4 levels of warlock, but then you automatically have a touchy attack at only 1 lvl of it once per round.

Also, you're not quoting the SRD. >_>

www.d20srd.com wrote:
Skill Mastery

The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

Sure, UMD says that you can't take 10; but Warlocks are able to Take 10 as it is, so if one clas can take 10 at level 4; an other class should be able to do the same at.. level 10.

Zherog at [unixtime wrote:1169150303[/unixtime]]If your DM puts any value into what the FAQ/Sage Advice says, what Eagle posted won't work.

FAQ (December 20, 2006 version), page 16 wrote:Can a rogue with skill mastery take 10 on a Use Magic Device check?

No. The rogue’s skill mastery class feature states that “she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.” This only applies to skills that allow a character to take 10 in nonstressful situations; if a skill simply doesn’t allow a character to take 10 under any circumstances (such as Use Magic Device), skill mastery provides no benefit.

I also thought there was a ruling about UMD not allowing you to emulate the ability to cast spells, but I can't find it so it's possible I'm imagining that ruling.

Well, you could just take 4 levels of warlock, but then you automatically have a touchy attack at only 1 lvl of it once per round.

Also, you're not quoting the SRD. >_>

www.d20srd.com wrote:
Skill Mastery

The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

Sure, UMD says that you can't take 10; but Warlocks are able to Take 10 as it is, so if one clas can take 10 at level 4; an other class should be able to do the same at.. level 10.

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1169332050[/unixtime]] Sure, UMD says that you can't take 10; but Warlocks are able to Take 10 as it is, so if one clas can take 10 at level 4; an other class should be able to do the same at.. level 10.

In Andy's FAQ word, that's covered too.

FAQ (Dec 20, 2006 version), page 17 wrote:
The warlock’s deceive item class feature (Complete Arcane, page 8) allows him to take 10 on Use Magic Device checks “even if distracted or threatened,” but the Use Magic Device skill says you can’t ever take 10, regardless of distraction. Does deceive item also let the warlock ignore this restriction?

This class feature really does two things. First, it allows the warlock to take 10 on Use Magic Device skill checks (a boon all by itself). Second, it allows him to take 10 on such checks even in conditions where that would normally not be possible.

Whether you agree or not (I allow Skill Mastery to apply to UMD), that's what the "official" stance from WotC is on the matter.

And Frank - whether or not the sage licks your nut sac is a personal thing. Whatever floats your boat, man.

Zherog at [unixtime wrote:1169426563[/unixtime]]

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1169332050[/unixtime]] Sure, UMD says that you can't take 10; but Warlocks are able to Take 10 as it is, so if one clas can take 10 at level 4; an other class should be able to do the same at.. level 10.

In Andy's FAQ word, that's covered too.

FAQ (Dec 20, 2006 version), page 17 wrote:
The warlock’s deceive item class feature (Complete Arcane, page 8) allows him to take 10 on Use Magic Device checks “even if distracted or threatened,” but the Use Magic Device skill says you can’t ever take 10, regardless of distraction. Does deceive item also let the warlock ignore this restriction?

This class feature really does two things. First, it allows the warlock to take 10 on Use Magic Device skill checks (a boon all by itself). Second, it allows him to take 10 on such checks even in conditions where that would normally not be possible.

Whether you agree or not (I allow Skill Mastery to apply to UMD), that's what the "official" stance from WotC is on the matter.

And Frank - whether or not the sage licks your nut sac is a personal thing. Whatever floats your boat, man.

We're not disagreeing then.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Andy is the guy who came up with the idea that saving throws will auto-fail on a 1.

Which is cool; until you hit level 10. Then the people who will fail b/c they rolled ones with a lot more frequency b/c they'll have to be making more saves.

Personally, I say doing away with auto-fails is something that just needs to be done. Mostly, b/c if you are awesome enough to still hit on a 1, who cares? The monster's easy enough to kill off.

Plus, increasing randomness only screws one group of people at the gaming table. The ones that many DMs sometimes have to fudge low for in order to keep the campaign from stalling.


So, doing away with auto-fails will keep fighters from losing their effectiveness from more attack actions than the wizard; and will allow the monk or paladin to make their saves more often than anyone else.


What a thread derailment.

So if something says you "may take 10" that loses to a rule that says you "cannot take 10", while if something says that you "can take 10" that wins against the same rule.

Obviously in D&D world, the word "can" is more powerful than the word "may".

Dumb!

-Username17

Skill Mastery (emboldening mine) wrote:...she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so....

But it isn't distraction or stress that prevents you from taking 10 on UMD, it is the fact that you cannot ordinarily take 10 at all with the skill.

Fwib at [unixtime wrote:1169515055[/unixtime]]

Skill Mastery (emboldening mine) wrote:...she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so....

But it isn't distraction or stress that prevents you from taking 10 on UMD, it is the fact that you cannot ordinarily take 10 at all with the skill.

a warlock can take 10 even if distracted or threatened.

What's your fvcking point?

The difference between the two statements is that a Rogue may take 10, and a Warlock can take 10. The statements are otherwise semantically identical.

-Username17

Well, Rogues can ignore distractions with UMD; the same as a Warlock.


So, either Warlocks can't take 10; like the UMD skill saiys.

Or Rogues can take 10 like a Warlock can take 10. I think it's either one, or the other, I don't think you can have both Warlocks allowed, while Rogues aren't.

Afterall, a Rogue could have a Knowlege skill as one of their Take 10 skills, which you can never take 10 with normally.

So, either UMD is exempt from being lumped in with Knowledge Skills (with regards to taking 10), which is said no where that I can recall.

Or it works like other skills that you normally can't take 10 on, but Skill Mastery allows you to bypass that restiction; or UMD is an exception to that, even though it doesn't say so anywhere in an obvious manner.


As for the 'writers' for the game; they have good ideas, but a lot of the time the home games that they run tell you almost eveything about what kind of game that they want to run.

Example: Andy Collins' own game pretty much has a rule that prevents spellcasters from getting full casting progression.

Instead, for every full casting class level, they have to take at least one non or partial casting class level.

So, you get 2nd level spells, at 6th lvl, 3rd at 10, and 5th at lvl 20.


Of course, that's good when the DM can coddle his players with goblins, orcs, magical beasts and maybe some mobs of low-tier outsiders; but as it stands, the D&D world has creatures like Balors, War Trolls, Stone Golems etc. etc. etc. that could face the heroes.

To face down a stone golem, you need more than... 3rd level spells; you need stuff like Acid Fog, and maybe a silent image or magic mouth to keep the Golem in the Acid.

Hell no, you need equal levels of wizard and fighter

The warlock ability is specific to UMD, so when it says 'you can take 10 even if distracted' it means 'you can take 10 (even though UMD doesn't usually let you) and even when distracted', but the rogue ability is more general, so it can be read either way.

Since the specific overrides the general, when the warlock ability specifically says you can take 10 with UMD if you are a 4+th level warlock and the UMD skill says that generally you can't take 10 with UMD, the warlock ability wins.

But when the rogue ability generally says you can take 10, and the UMD specifically says you can't take 10.... there you can disagree on exactly how general and specific things are....

Well, I'm pretty sure that the way the Warlock ability is written is useless. So, it's pretty obvious it is supposed to let the Warlock take 10. So, we can be pretty sure that the author just copied the Rogue Skill Mastery text without thinking about it.

However, I'm pretty sure that you're not supposed to be able to take 10 as a Rogue, because otherwise they would have said "you make take 10 on a certain number of skills of your choice when you otherwise could not." I mean, that would be pretty clear.

I chalk it up to bad writing/editing on the Warlock. I think the difference between "can" and "may" is irrelevant. Their intent is pretty clear in this instance, if their language isn't.

AlphaNerd wrote:Their intent is pretty clear in this instance, if their language isn't.

Sure. It's very very clear. Amazingly fvcking clear.

Eberron, p. 32 wrote:Skill Mastery: At 13th level, an artificer can take 10 when making a Spellcraft or Use Magic Device check, even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so.

The specific overrides the general. If you have an ability that tells you that you can take 10 on a skill, you can fvcking well take 10 on the skill.

-Username17

The specific overrides the general. If you have an ability that tells you that you can take 10 on a skill, you can fvcking well take 10 on the skill.

-Username17

That's what I was trying to say. The warlock and artificer abilities specifically mention UMD, thus overriding the UMD text which says 'you can't take 10 at all', the rogue ability doesn't specifically mention UMD, just the general stress/distraction stuff.

[edit] Also, should we have the UMD/take-10 bit forked into another thread, since it isnt about attack-touchiness?

Fwib wrote:That's what I was trying to say. The warlock and artificer abilities specifically mention UMD, thus overriding the UMD text which says 'you can't take 10 at all', the rogue ability doesn't specifically mention UMD, just the general stress/distraction stuff.

It doesn't matter. Skill Mastery doesn't say that you can take 10 if you are distracted. It says you can take 10 even if distracted. That means that it's a rule that says flat out that you can take 10, and then provides an example of a rule that doesn't beat it.

Since UMD and Knowledge: Nobility are both legal selectable skills for he Skill Mastery ability, and the ability has no limitations or caveats to the statement that you may take 10 with the selected skills - you can damn well take 10 with a selected skill such as UMD or Knowledge: Nobility.

Indeed, so completely is this wording simple and easy to understand that the "Skill Mastery" ability of the Artificer is just the Rogue "Skill Mastery" ability with UMD as a pre-selected skill. The wording is identical, as is the ability name, because it's the same ability.

-Username17

Well, you make a good case - now I will be able to argue the case either way with sincerity

I hope that an opportunity sometime comes up to do so at my DM's table.