How Strong Are D&D Characters Compared to Real Superheroes?

[Lago_AM3P]

So we were just chatting, right, and of course the subject came up about superheroes and D&D and whatnot and how it strains disbelief with how frickin' powerful PCs become.

Okay, say you have a party of 20th level PCs of various classes. In your opinion, properly equipped and min-maxxed to the core of everything except for their character class choices (which will lead to some inherently suboptimal choices, like the fighter, but whatever): Who is the strongest superhero or villain one of these PCs could hand their asses to? We're avoiding infinite power loops here or spells that break when abusing tertiary rules (like simacrulum or blasphemy), but using broken spells that have a cap like SOME shapechange forms, like something 'harmless' such as a golem or using shades is okay. I know the criteria is weird and arbitrary so, don't use it if you feel like it.

A 20th level...

Fighter
Cleric
Druid
Wizard
Rogue
Bard
Monk

And now, for the edge-case combinations. We're getting into real cheese here.

Vow of Poverty Druid
Any kind of super-PrCed warrior character of chaotic alignment (e.g. Fighter/Barbarian/Exotic Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserker)
The same, but of lawful alignment
Frank's Maho Tsukai

And regardless of your conclusion, do you think that this is a bad thing for the game? The super-powering up of PCs, that is.

[RandomCasualty]

Super powerful is OK so long as you can still roleplay and describe it. Wolverine or Professor X is incredibly powerful, but we can easily see them doing their thing, and we know generally what they'd do in a certain situation, so they're OK.

As for the matchups.

For a wizard/cleric: I'd say... probably Magneto, Spiderman (easily), the X-men. A wizard could beat superman possibly, so long as superman didn't use super speed and burned him with a good will save spell. D&D characters really have no counter for superspeed. They could maybe take Juggernaut too, but he'd give them a very tough fight. The hulk may be beatable too... but only through magic, probably some kind of plane shift trap or imprisonment spell. The main thing with the hulk is that he'd pulverize anyone he hit, but things like improved invis would ultimately be his downfall.

A 20th level fighter or wildshaped druid: could probably whip most of the X-men and some of theother lesser heroes, but any of the big bashers like Hulk, Superman or Juggernaut would pound this guy into the dirt. Even a frenzied berserker wouldn't do very well. The juggernaut is unstoppable, superman can fly away from him, and the hulk is way better at combat frenzy then he can ever hope to be.

20th level rogue: He'd be big on stealth. Possibly able to kill hulk if he ambushed him as Banner. Definitely able to take on most of the X-men. He'd have trouble against Spiderman however because of the spider sense. If he had kryptonite, he could possibly get it close enough to Superman to beat him, but it'd be tough to get by his super senses. Against Juggernaut it is pretty much a lost cause.

[Username17]

Fighter A 20th level Fighter right out of the box will hand Iceman or Spider Man his ass. Wolverine, Batman, Juggernaut or Green Lantern will take him out, however.
Cleric A 20th level Cleric can go a whuppin and a whompin on the Flash or the John Stewart Green Lantern.
Druid A 20th level Druid can own the Martian Manhunter or Superman from either the Max Fleischer or recent cartoons.
Rogue The Rogue can get a flawless takedown on Magneto or Professor X.
Wizard The Wizard can beat the entire Brotherhood of Evil Mutants at the same time. He can also take on the entire Injustice League - but while he can face off against Superman, Green Lantern, and the Martian Manhunter at the same frickin time - The Flash or Batman will take him down almost imediately. It's very odd.
Bard A 20th level Bard can defeat Jean Grey, but loses to Professor X. Or you can trick him out to where he fights and wins against Wonder Woman (although he will never be able to compete against the Flash).
Monk A 20th level Monk can take out Batman or Spiderman, but can't even hurt Juggernaut or Martian Manhunter before they fold him up and put him in the garbage can.

Vow of Poverty Druid There is very little difference from a Vow of Poverty Druid and a Druid with exactly the right equipment - unless you take advantage of the fact that the VoP druid can benefit from expendable equipment used in the past - in which case the 20th level Druid can take on the entire Justice League at once and expect to win.

Tooled Up Chaos Warrior: A tooled up Chaos Warrior can take out Wolverine, Juggernaut, or Batman.

Tooled up Lawful Warrior: This character is basically indistinguishable from Wonderwoman. Still probably loses to Batman, but is now able to take out Wolverine, Juggernaut, or Green Lantern.

The over the top Maho Tsukai This bizzare build can take on just about anyone. The only heroes or villains I can even think of who has a chance is Bat Man. Seriously every single other character gets wadded up and thrown out. Even Superman and the Silver Surfer, everybody.

I think it's fine that PCs eventually become superheroes. Ancient Heroes were the super heroes of their day. People discussed Beowulf in exactly the same fan boy terms as we discuss Spider Man.

Some of the ancient heroes [i[are[/i] the super heroes of our day - such as Thor and Smax. So the fact that a game dedicated to making ancient heroes shoud eventually make people indistinguishable from super heroes is only to be expected.

The only problem I have is that Druids can beat up Superman and Fighters can't.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

What is the Maho Tsakai exactly anyway? I'm not familiar with it...

[Username17]

It is a PrC that casts a lot like a Sorcerer. But you can trade other spellcasting levels into Maho Tsukai. Then, any spells you could cast out of the previous class(es) are now bonus spells the Maho Tsukai knows, and the amount of spells per day and spell levels available are determined by the new caster level, not by your class level.

So you make one of those absurd multiclassed, feedback loop caster level generation builds with large numbers of spells known and about 5 different classes all with large caster levels. Then you trade all of it into Maho Tsukai and then you have a single class which has a huge pile of 9th level spell slots, can cast any spell on several lists spontaneously, and has a caster level in the triple digits.

-Username17

[MrWaeseL]

Why could Batman take on the magic users?

[Username17]

Because the disable device DC of Force Cage is 32.

Mechanically, Wizards get their butts handed to them by people who use Batman tactics - so I figure that "Batman" probably hands them the butt.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

I think you really overrate batman... in a straight up fight he's screwed, and when not in a straight up fight, scry/teleport easily beats him.

[fbmf]

1082391627[/unixtime]]I think you really overrate batman... in a straight up fight he's screwed, and when not in a straight up fight, scry/teleport easily beats him.

He's mastered 11 different martial arts forms, but in a straight up fight he is screwed?

Game On,
fbmf

[Boulie_98]

So he's the equal of a 20th level Monk... way to go batman

[Username17]

So he's the equal of a 20th level Monk...

And has enough Disable Device and such to take apart any spell effect a wizard feels the need to use.

And as such... Batman owns a 20th level Wizard.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1082391989[/unixtime]]
He's mastered 11 different martial arts forms, but in a straight up fight he is screwed?

No magical gear. No spell buffs. He's a high level monk who doesn't even have abundant step or SR. Sure he's got some gadgets but so what? Unless you're talking about him using the bat plane to fire missiles at the person, he's really just a rich high level monk without any magical items and a lot of knowledge skills.

Any kind of DR shreds him, forcecage beats him, gate beats him, antilife shell beats him, even just a fighter in +5 full plate, with a +5 sword and good stat enhancing gear would give him a hell of a fight. A rogue with good stealth gear could sneak up on him, because again, batman doesnt' have any magical enhancements.

When it comes down to it, he's just a normal man who fights normal men for the most part. The joker is just a man... nothing special really, and he gives batman some trouble sometimes along with his low level street punk goons. What could batman do against threats that normal characters face in a stand up fight. A dragon? A balor? A pit fiend? Batman is so screwed here it's not funny. He may beat them after comimng back from a tactical retreat... but straight up, he has no chance. 20th level cahracters take these kind of encounters straight up. It's why they're better than batman.

Batman, he's good, but he can't handle CR 20 threats like a 20th level character can.

[Username17]

Any kind of DR shreds him, forcecage beats him, gate beats him, antilife shell beats him,

I don't know if you've watched any Batman: The Animated Series, or read any Batman comics, but this just isn't true.

1. Batman has elaborate plans for just about everything (read: The Dark Knight Returns to watch him chew through some DR good and proper).

2. Batman has elaborate plans for everything (the disable device DC of Forcecage is only 32 - and for a man with BatLube on his belt that's not a difficult DC at all).

3. Batman has ranged weapons (antilife shell has absolutely no effect on a batarang or grapple gun, and batman is perfectly able to delay his action until you start casting spells to hose you).

4. Did I mention that Batman has elaborate plans for everything? (The Disable Device DC for a gate assassination is 34, whoopdefrickin do).

Yeah, wizards are impressive. They can waste just about the entire justice league. And a Fighter actually can just walk over and smack Batman down. But Batman specializes in countergimmicks - which means that Wizards basically can't touch him.

A wizard fighting batman is like a wizard fighting a 12th level warrior in an antimagic field. All of your powers mean precisely dick and you have a d4 hit points per level and a BAB of +10.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1082406034[/unixtime]]
1. Batman has elaborate plans for just about everything (read: The Dark Knight Returns to watch him chew through some DR good and proper).

Planning is great when you've got some idea of what you're up against. If we assume both parties knew what they were up agaisnt and had time to research, batman would have been scried and died long before he finished the first week of research.

2. Batman has elaborate plans for everything (the disable device DC of Forcecage is only 32 - and for a man with BatLube on his belt that's not a difficult DC at all).

This is a forcecage trap that hasn't been triggered yet. I don't think you can actualyl disable an existing spell effect this way, as it is "not a device" for purposes of the skill.

3. Batman has ranged weapons (antilife shell has absolutely no effect on a batarang or grapple gun, and batman is perfectly able to delay his action until you start casting spells to hose you).

Yeah, I'm sure the non magical batarang doing 1d4 + str damage is going to disrupt the concentration of a 20th level wizard. It'll be lucky if it dents his stoneskin. If I was the wizard and some guy threw a boomerang at me to try to disrupt one of my spells, I think I'd use my next standard action laughing at him, because really if the best he's got is a nonmagical boomerang, then I might as well just save the spells and pull out a crossbow.

4. Did I mention that Batman has elaborate plans for everything? (The Disable Device DC for a gate assassination is 34, whoopdefrickin do).

Don't see how you can disable that. It takes an action to disable it (even if you allow disabling spell effects, which is a real stretch anyway), and by the time it's hit him, batman is already under the control of the caster. Its instantaneous. So unless he somehow readies an action to beat a gate assassination 24/7, he's hosed because once he's under the control of the caster, he can't disable it.

So even if you do allow that rule that disable device can do that, it still doesnt' mean a thing.

But Batman specializes in countergimmicks - which means that Wizards basically can't touch him.

Oh, and what does he do against scry and die? or a wizard that plane shifts? I mean batman can't even get to the negative energy plane on his own, let alone find someone there.

You assume that there's someway that science can beat magic, and given earth's level of science for the batman comics, I'd probably say it can't.

Batman is a genius, I'll give him that... but beating 9th level spells is a bit much.

A wizard fighting batman is like a wizard fighting a 12th level warrior in an antimagic field. All of your powers mean precisely dick and you have a d4 hit points per level and a BAB of +10.

Have I said you seriously overrate this guy yet?

[Username17]

This is a forcecage trap that hasn't been triggered yet. I don't think you can actualyl disable an existing spell effect this way, as it is "not a device" for purposes of the skill.

You sure can. That's how you remove Fire Trap or Exploding Runes or Glyphs of Warding or whatever...

Force Cage can only be removed by Disintegration, Teleport, or Disable Device (short of Epic stuff anyway). That means that it completely owns anyone other than a high level Wizard or Rogue. Batman is a high level Rogue, so he is "not owned" by Forcecage.

-Username17

[Desdan_Mervolam]

There is no way Batman is a 20th level Monk, with or without SR or Abundant Step. Batman is a 20th level Rogue who specializes in unarmed combat. His biggest focus is skills and since I'm sure Batman's worked his intelligence into the low-mid 20's in D&D terms, he has ALOT of skills. The rogue's fighting style also fits very well. While it's probably true that Batman would lose to a comparably-leveled fighter class in a straight up, all things being equal fight, when have you ever seen Batman fight that way? Batman has never been afraid to horribly PIMP an opponent's weaknesses in battle (Dark Knight Returns is a perfect example).

And yes, not being able to make those computer use and gather info checks to find out about his target seriously hurts him, but that rarely keeps him out for long, witness any story that introduces a new villian to the Rogues Gallery. Batman confronts, realizes he's in over his head, and retreats to scout and spy.

One last thing. It's probably an overstatement to say that Batman has no super-powers, since his abilities would have to be all 16s or better. He'd have to be, to be the Pinnacle of Human Achievement. He'd have stats I wouldn't allow if presented at a table. Being the Pinnacle of Human Achievement IS his superpower.

-Desdan

[Maj]

Don't forget that when comparing a 20th level rogue to a 20th level wizard, the trick is who actually goes first. I'd say that Batman wins just by virtue of the fact that he has a high initiative.

[RandomCasualty]

1082409964[/unixtime]]
And yes, not being able to make those computer use and gather info checks to find out about his target seriously hurts him, but that rarely keeps him out for long, witness any story that introduces a new villian to the Rogues Gallery. Batman confronts, realizes he's in over his head, and retreats to scout and spy.

A wizard pretty much scouts and spies better than batman can ever hope to. The wizard simply teleports away, waits for batman to fall asleep, then slits his throat in the night, and batman can't do a thing about it.

Batman's great in the context of a comic book, where heroes almost never die, and he ends up lucking out. The problem is that that just won't happen against a D&D character. He won't let batman limp away, research his enemy and come back with a plan, and really, even if he did I'm not sure what plan batman is going to come up with.

The problem is that batman's technology just can't fight magic. Battarangs and grapple guns are great for the Joker's cadre of street punks, but this is a whole new level of power... one batman just wouldnt' be ready for.

[Username17]

Battarangs and grapple guns are great for the Joker's cadre of street punks, but this is a whole new level of power... one batman just wouldnt' be ready for.

What?

A Wizard's spells are only good if they actually go off. If you win initiative and have a readied action - the wizard is rather unlikely to get off any spells.

If you full attack with some sneak attacks - the wizard goes down in one round.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1082444056[/unixtime]]
A Wizard's spells are only good if they actually go off. If you win initiative and have a readied action - the wizard is rather unlikely to get off any spells.

If you full attack with some sneak attacks - the wizard goes down in one round.

Frank for someone with your knowledge of the rules I'm honestly surprised you're still fighting this.

Batman has no way of using true seeing, therefore a cloak of displacement beats him, easy. No sneak attack, and now he's got about 18 strength and throwing for 1d4+4 damage per battarang. That won't even penetrate stoneskin, let alone break the concentration of a wizard with 20 ranks in the skill.

[Username17]

Batman has no way of using true seeing, therefore a cloak of displacement beats him, easy.

Right.


-Username17

[skrayper]

These are pretty absurd arguements. Think about it...
Pretty much all superheroes have abilities that cannot be duplicated, or if they can, are to the upteenth degree.

Take Spiderman, for example. Ok, he can bench press 10 tons, he can dodge automatic weapons fire, he can sense when something is about to attack him. Plus, he pretty much has an unlimitted ranged attack/grapple ability with his webshooters. Not to mention he's very smart, and has a lot of will power.

Str: 48, granting him a bonus of +19 to damage
Dex: This one's sticky... however, if we assume that his dex score is at least a full class above his strength (ala the Marvel RPG), then one could grant him a 60 to dex. This gives him a bonus of +25 to AC. More importantly, a +25 to initiative.
Con: Well, it takes a lot for him to get tired. I'd say around a 30.
Int: Established he's pretty friggin' smart. 18-20
Wis: High will save. 20?
Cha: Irrelevant for this exercise.

Ok, his spider-sense makes any confrontation problematic. No rogue is ever going to sneak up on him, and without the sneak attack damage, Spidey would own him. Warriors can't hope to hit him, as Spidey would probably get a +20 to +30 dodge bonus to AC due to the spider sense. This makes sense because when his sense is negated, he's a much easier (but still pretty hard) target to hit. With it, he's nearly impossible to hit. Applies to monks too. Spellcasters have a much better shot at beating Spidey, but good luck finding one that will win initiative on him. He'll simply web up any wizards (stoneskin is irrelevant against grapple attacks), and viola. No more wizard, unless he managed to get a lot of silent/still spells memorized. Even then, Spidey's reflex save against damaging spells is astronimical. Best chance are will save spells, which he'd have a shot against.
Also, as for stealth, few rogues can compete with Spidey in that department. When you add into the equation his spider walking ability, he can take nearly anyone by surprise.

As for Batman... I'd say Batman could take a 20th level wizard, IF he knew he was going to fight one. Pretty safe bet that stoneskin wouldn't be much use against missles and lasers.

[fbmf]

Why lasers? Aren't they energy attacks?

Game On,
fbmf

[Sma]

You´re all missing the point

It would like completely depend on whether Batman was a Ninja or a Pirate.

Sma

[RandomCasualty]

1082552484[/unixtime]]
As for Batman... I'd say Batman could take a 20th level wizard, IF he knew he was going to fight one. Pretty safe bet that stoneskin wouldn't be much use against missles and lasers.

Well yes, batman could win if he had knowledge of his opponent and the wizard didn't, but that's a biased fight. For it to be fair both sides need to be equally aware of each other.

SUre, if the wizard was just in his tower doing miscellaneous things unprepared with spells, and batman snuck up behind him and whacks him with a sneak attack, then sure, batman could win. Sure he could attack the wizards tower with a surprise bomb or missile attack, and the wizard is equally screwed. But this is totally loaded in batman's favor, and if we reversed the positions, batman would be dead the first night to a scry+die attack while he slept in Wayne manor.

But if the wizard knows he's fighting batman and batman knows he's fighting a wizard, then the advantage is clearly in the wizard's favor. Scry and die easily nullifies any chance batman could have. Even on the best stimulants available, batman has to sleep eventually.