Fixing Metamagic

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User3
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Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

Let's face it, there are three problems with metamagic in the current rule set:

(1) Using metamagic is generally strictly worse than using a level appropriate spell

(2) If you use a metamagic 'honestly', ie, as you are intended to, its hard to get much bang for your buck

(3) A number of exploits exist (DMM, incantatrix, rods of metamagic, etc...) which are the only 'good' ways to use metamagic.

Hence the fix: Metamagic
Metamagic feats no longer have a slot adjustment. Instead, they have a legal spell level value. Legal spell level values are given as a number with a negative operator (ie, -1). Apply the legal spell level value to the highest spell level you can cast to determine which spell levels you can apply the metamagic feat towards. A spell of higher level than the highest legal spell value cannot have that metamagic feat applied for any reason.

For instance, Quicken Spell could have a negative operator of -4. If your maximum spell level was 7, you could only apply quicken to spells 3rd level or lower. Note that this is the maximum spell level you *can cast*, so if you're a 13th level wizard with a 16 intelligence, your maximum spell level is 6, even though a wizard of your level with intelligence 17 could cast 7th level spells.

When you apply the metamagic feat, it doesn't change the slot the spell occupies. A quickened fireball still takes a 3rd level slot. (Casters *should* be able to throw low-level spells around like candy - and this really isn't where the abuse comes in).

Metamagic spells still must be assigned during preparation. If you prepare a spell with the quickened metamagic feat, you cannot cast it if you do not have a swift action remaining - even if you have a standard action. Spellcasters who do not prepare spells have the best of both worlds - they can choose metamagic to assign on the fly.

Using multiple metamagic feats: To use multiple metamagic feats on the same spell, sum the legal spell level values of all the metamagic feats. So if you wanted to use Quicken (-4) and Empower (-2), you'd sum them to get -6. If your maximum spell level is 7, you'd only be able to Quicken and Empower 1st and 0th level spells - but they'd still occupy 1st and 0th level slots respectively.

Assigning lower level spells to higher slots: A spell counts as its actual spell level, not the slot its in. Preparing a 1st level spell in a 5th level slot is in all ways treated as a 1st level spell, included in the application of metamagic feats.

Metamagic Feats
Most of these are references to the already published feats with a recommended legal spell level value. Some metamagic feats are totally rewritten. Legal spell level values are listed in () after the spell name.

Heighten Spell (-1): When applied to a spell, this makes the spell count as a spell of the highest spell level you are able to cast for the purposes of save DCs only. It still occupies a slot of its actual spell level, and may be further modified by other metamagic as a spell of that actual level.

Silent (-1)*
Still (-1)*
Widen (-1)
Extend (-1)
Enlarge (-1)
Empower (-2)
Repeat (-2)
Maximize (-3)
Twin (-3)
Delay (-3)
Quicken (-4)

Persistent (-3/-6): A persistent spell increases the duration of the spell one or two categories, defined as follows. 1r/level -> 1min/level -> 10min/level -> 1hr/level -> 24 hours. Spells of fixed duration cannot be persisted (this includes duration 1 round). Spells with durations not covered round their duration down to the nearest approximation (anything less than 1r/level cannot be effected). A one duration category increase uses the -3 modifier, a two duration categories increase uses the -6 modifier. Apply the effects of Persistent before the effects of Extend if both are being used.

*I wrote a spellcraft feat that granted these two abilities somewhere on this board - if using it with these rules, treat silent and still abilities as per this rule, but use that feat instead of them being separate feats.

Design Notes: These rules prohibit application of metamagic feats to spells that are too high a level for you - therefore there is no way around this, the metamagic feat simply cannot be applied. Alternate rules for metamagic rods and Divine Metamagic are supplied below.

Metamagic Rods: A metamagic rod allows you to apply a metamagic feat on the fly, even though you didn't apply that metamagic feat during preparation. The spell must still be a legal target for the metamagic feat, just as if you had prepared it using the feat. If you do not know the feat, the rod also gives you the ability to apply the metamagic feat when it is used. It may be used no more than 3/day.

Divine Metamagic: You can expend turning attempts to add, subtract, or change the metamagic feats applied to a spell when you cast it. The final metamagic suite applied to the spell must be a legal combination as if you had prepared it. Removing a metamagic feat requires 1 turning attempt. Adding or changing metamagic effects requires a number of turning attempts = -(1+legal spell level value) (minimum 1) for each metamagic effect added.

Note: legal spell level value is a negative number, so adding 1 to it decreases the magnitude by 1, and applying a negative sign makes it a positive integer.

Note: Do not choose a metamagic feat when you get Divine Metamagic - it works with all your metamagic feats.

Sorcerors
Sorcerors are the kings of metamagic in this paradigm. (1) do not penalize sorceror for quicken - they can use it normally without losing their familiar or burning a feat. (2) Give sorcerors a bonus metamagic feat every 5 levels (5,10,15,20). (3) Every sorceror chooses a theme. This will be spells drawn from one school of spells and one subschool within that school (if the school has subschools), one element, or some other unifying element (last one with DM's approval only). Every time the sorceror gains access to a new spell level he learns one spell from his theme in addition to any other spells he is entitled to. He may treat spells from his theme as one spell level lower for the purposes of applying metamagic feats, but they still require the same spell slot to cast. If a given spell level doesn't have spells for a given theme, you aren't using enough splatbooks... i mean, talk with your DM.

So for instance, a sorceror could choose Fire as a theme. At first level he could choose Burning Hands, at for 2nd level spells he might take scorching ray, etc... When he casts burning hands he treats it as a 0th level spell for the purposes of applying metamagic feats, but it still uses a 1st level slot.

That should be all the fix a sorceror needs, actually.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by AlphaNerd »

Divine Metamagic: You can expend turning attempts to add, subtract, or change the metamagic feats applied to a spell when you cast it. The final metamagic suite applied to the spell must be a legal combination as if you had prepared it. Removing a metamagic feat requires 1 turning attempt. Adding or changing metamagic effects requires a number of turning attempts = -(1+legal spell level value) (minimum 1) for each metamagic effect added.

Note: legal spell level value is a negative number, so adding 1 to it decreases the magnitude by 1, and applying a negative sign makes it a positive integer.

Note: Do not choose a metamagic feat when you get Divine Metamagic - it works with all your metamagic feats.


Why decrease the magnitude for divine metamagic? Is that part of some grand conversion from metamagic spell slots to turning attempts (which I guess are limited by CHA bonus). Or, is it an attempt to make the (-2 or higher) ones cheaper? Can you abuse nightsticks(?) this way (or does that take a standard action to use)?

Also, would these be available in campaign? What about those evocation spells?
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

It doesn't make the metamagic cheaper. They just cost fewer turning attempts than their legal spell level value (unless that's -1). The spell + metamagic must still be legal as usual.

The spell damage increasers/multipliers were assigned LSLVs based upon the new evocation spell paradigm. I'm not totally convinced the above is balanced yet, but I think its better than what we currently have.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

Honestly I don't see why magic needs a powerup. So - with the heighten spell feat all of my spells now have have my highest spell level save DC. All of my buffs would have extend on them - just because. I am not seeing any real need for this kind of pure extra oomph to spellcasters - I mean, don't we agree they already have pure ultimate power?
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1177111681[/unixtime]]Honestly I don't see why magic needs a powerup. So - with the heighten spell feat all of my spells now have have my highest spell level save DC. All of my buffs would have extend on them - just because. I am not seeing any real need for this kind of pure extra oomph to spellcasters - I mean, don't we agree they already have pure ultimate power?


Its not just a power-up

(1) It prevents all the cheesy ways to increase metamagic beyond you highest level slots.

(2) It makes metamagic useful when its not being cheesed. (Lets face it, metamagic rarely gets used unless you have DMM or a rod or other cheese).

(3) You don't "automatically" have that stuff. If you have sufficiently many metamagic options, you will run into choices. Ie, if you heighten everything, you won't be able to quicken your max spell level -4 level spells.

Now, are the numbers necessarily right? No. I'm willing to consider pushing those around. Ie, maybe extend should be (-2) instead of (-1). Perfectly plausible. Distinguish comments on specific balance vs. comments on the general system. Certainly the above is better than the ways rods and DMM and similar function with current meta-magic rules?
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

This looks pretty good. You should be able to walk around doing level-appropriate things.

Sculpt Spell is about the only awesome metamagic feat not on there. Should it just be a +1?
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

I can see simple quick fix rules - no metamagiking your spells over level 9, no DMM.

Thus putting MM back into it's original "intended" place.

As far as "is MM not used enough" - well, with your system, heighten is just a necessary feat. Might as well just change the spell DC's to 10 + highest level spell instead of 10 + spell level.

in my last campaign I had a high level druid and I used my 3 metamagic feats often - energy sub (electric), born 3 thunders, and extend spell. I used those feats every day to prepare spells (or augment them)

I guess my argument is simply this - a better fix would be to ban the abuses rather than power up the whole system, because spellcasters already have enough going for them. serioulsy - imagine if all of your fireballs every day were DC 19+ instead of DC 13+ - let alone your hold monsters / dominates / baleful polymorphs....
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by AlphaNerd »

Frankly, abusing metamagic is no fun. At least to me. However, it'd still be nice to have it be used/useful.

I think that "free" metamagic is a plausible way to make things useful. I do have a comment though -- perhaps the best approach is a mixed one. Something like Quicken/Persistant/Twin? probably deserves both a spell-level adjustment and some free level-capped metamagic.

Also, if you want Heighten to not be an automatic feat choice, how about simply writing:
Heighten Spell (-1): Increase the DC by 1. This stacks with itself. Then there's a reasonable choice to be had, and you can still fill in spells with higher DCs if you've got levels leftover.

Also, if you think that a higher DC on fireball is a problem, you're wrong.[1] Because there should be a spell out there that is better than fireball *and* has a higher save DC (at a higher level, of course). That's seriously how spells work. Sure, mages have a limited supply of spells, but realistically, they don't, either because they have scrolls[2], or because they sleep when they're done.



[1] And not just because fireball isn't a great spell.
[2] Or wands, or staves, or whatever.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by Cielingcat »

Heighten is not a problem. Really. If the DCs on your spells are the same as they were 2 levels ago, you might as well not even have them. Higher level spells are better because they do better things; no one uses Wail of the Banshee over Finger of Death because the former has a DC 2 points higher, they use it because it affects multiple targets. Honestly, spells should just have a DC of 10+1/2 HD+modifier
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by AlphaNerd »

Is there any reason (flavor excluded) why you prevent someone from casting a spell if they don't have a high enough stat. I mean, surely the spell DCs and bonus spells are (in general) a big enough reason to go for the biggest spellcasting stat you can. Why shaft the dude with a low stat even more?
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Cielingcat at [unixtime wrote:1177116099[/unixtime]]Honestly, spells should just have a DC of 10+1/2 HD+modifier


That + CL=CR would be my two quick fixes to the magic system.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by RandomCasualty »

Metamagic is basically another tool to hose evokers. The only spells that are really worth it to cast metamagic straight up on are direct damage. A twinned empowered scorching ray is better than a single polar ray.

Aside from that, metamagic doesn't have much of a place in the game. Most of the metamagic that's applied to buffs is stuff that breaks the game, like persistent spell. If you ask me, we don't even want to deal with that crap.

So I'd say just abolish metamagic altogether and come up with some better evocations so the evokers don't need a pile of feats and magic items to do anything useful.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

Ok, honestly some metamagic spells just aren't good enough to be a feat. Other meta-magic feats are fine. Ergo:

Subtle Magic
Be vehwy vehwy quiet, I'm wehrking magic. (This is a skill feat that scales with ranks in Spellcraft).

Benefit: You gain the ability to cast silent spells. (As the silent spell feat except it uses the OP metamagic rules and has a LSLV of -1)

4 ranks: You gain the ability to cast stilled spells. (As still spell feat, except with a LSLV of -1).

9 ranks: Eschew Materials (as the feat)

14 ranks: You can apply both the silent and still spell abilities to a single spell for a combined total LSLV of -1. If used separately, they still retain a LSLV of -1 each.

19 ranks: You can make a spell stilled without having prepared it stilled ahead of time by making a concentration check (DC 30 + 2xSpell Level). You may ignore the LSLV when you do so (and therefore even apply still to your highest level spells, or when you've already applied as much metamagic as you can). You may use this ability up to casting attribute modifier times per day - a use is only used when you use it successfully.

Master of Shaping
I can bend space with but a twitch of my fingers! Oops...
...Dude, you torched my cow! (this is a skill feat that scales with ranks in Knowledge (Arcana))

Benefit: You gain access to the Enlarge Spell ability. It has a LSLV of -1.

4 ranks: You gain access to the Widen Spell ability. It has a LSLV of -1.

9 ranks: You gain access to the Sculpt Spell ability. It has a LSLV of -2.

14 ranks: You can choose up to a number of 5'x5' squares equal to your casting attribute modifier in the area of an instantaneous spell. Those squares are wholly unaffected by the spell, and creatures fully contained by them suffer no effects and need make no saves. (If volume matters, choose 5'x5'x5' cubes with a little wiggle - a medium creature should be considered to occupy one cube, a large (tall) creature is considered 2 cubes tall, etc...).

19 ranks: You can both Enlarge and Widen a spell for a total LSLV of -1. If you use a one of these abilities individually, it still retains its normal -1 LSLV.

Needs no help
The following metamagic abilities are feats in their own right, and don't need any help from spiffy multi-ability feats:

Extend
Quicken
Persist
Heighten

Probably ok
The following metamagic abilities are decent and can probably be left on their own.

Twin
Repeat
Delay
Empower
Maximize

Metamagic not covered
I need to go through my books at some point.

Note on LSLVs
I'm happy with most of the LSLVs i'm using, but some of them might need some adjustments. In particular, Extend, Twin, and Repeat may need to be increased slightly. If anyone has thoughts on balance it would be appreciated.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Looks good. Stops people from abusing the Meta-Magic system and keeps it intact.

I do wonder about that massive-ass concentration check you have at the end of the first feat, though. I mean, I know it's fairly well common-place for people to have cracked out skill checks at that point, but that's pretty much why the skill system is bad. I don't know if anyone recalls the skill system fix I put up a while ago, but even if some considered it generous, it was balanced because it had a set cap on all skills, so nothing could be cracked to ungodlyness.

Anyway, in a game that uses the current skill system, that check is fine and perhaps actually too easy to make. In a game with a level-appropriate set cap on skills, it would be too hard to make. Just something to consider.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by Endovior »

Well, if you're fvcking with the skill system, you'll need to adjust a lot of DCs, anyways. Don't expect that the people making new stuff adjust it to fit your alterations, because the curse of the system is that most everything is geared towards Core.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by Crissa »

The DCs shouldn't be any different for the messed with skill system - it's more I'm looking for a simpler system that makes characters do appropriate things than trying to completely revamp the execution of it.

Personally I don't care how the numbers get from the book to your page, the d20 stuff is all what the numbers do once they're on your page.

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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

I'm making the same assumptions Iaimeki did, actually.

By the time you have 19 ranks in spellcraft you could also have 19 ranks in concentration. Assuming +4 from con (really low at that level), that's +23 right there, which means auto-stilling on demand for a level 1 spell requires a 9. If you max out your magic item to +10 (from Iaimeki's thread), you're at +33, and can hit a level 9 spell with a 15. And this gets easier as you gain more ranks (and con). Its designed to be useable when you first get it, and to actually get better over time.

And applying it to a level 1 spell is just as good as to a level 9 spell, because it ignores LSLV, which means you get a '9th' point of metamagic on the spell, as opposed to 8 (assuming you have 9th level spells).
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by JonSetanta »

I suggest that instead of messing with how MM works "vertically", consider "horizontally":
Give the option to use an amount of spell levels equal to the MM adjustment rather than increase the level of the spell, or rather a combination of the 2 options.
QUicken would be possible at Sorcerer 1 but require most of their L1 spell they have to cast in a day (5).
L0 spells would count as half a spell level.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

This looks like a good place for this.

Augment Summoning [Metamagic]
Laugh will you? Ah, but my pets aren't the push-overs you're used to. (Augment Summoning is a metamagic feat that scales with the highest level spell you can cast).

Benefit: Casting Conjuration (Summoning) spells is a standard action for you.

1st: Any creature you call or summon gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution.

3rd: If you use a Conjuration (Summoning) effect to summon a creature in a non-combat situation, you may come to an arrangement with the creature(s). Whenever you summon that type of creature you may choose for the same individual to reappear. All such creatures receive maximum hp per HD, and you may give them magical gear that they will re-appear with when you summon them again. The conditions of this arrangement are the magical augmentation (max hp) and you must give each such creature one magical item. You may end any such deal by taking all such magical items from them. (If magical items have been destroyed during the duration such that they have no magical items from you, you may still summon the same creatures, but must provide them with magical items before your next summoning ends or the arrangement is ended).

6th: Whenever you summon creatures you may lose a prepared spell as a free action to have that spell apply to those creatures. Ignore the range of the spell, but the creatures must otherwise be legal targets.

8th: Whenever you cast a summon monster spell you double the number of creatures summoned.

Master Conjurer [skill]
You have a Pit Fiend on speed dial. (Master Conjurer is a skill feat which scales with ranks in Knowledge (The Planes)).

Benefit: If you do not have a familiar, you can gain the services of a minor outsider. You may choose any SMI monster with the Celestial or Fiendish template, or an animal of similar power with any of the Celestial, Fiendish, or Pseudonatural templates applied. Calling such a creature requires 10 minutes, and it serves you faithfully until slain or dismissed. You may call a new creature no more frequently than 1/week, and calling a new creature dismisses any creature you called previously, if they are still in your service.

If you have a familiar, it gains your choice of the Celestial, Fiendish, or Pseudonatural templates. Your familiar advances based on character level, not wizard level.

4 ranks: You double the area or volume of material you create with a Conjuration (Creation) effect.

9 ranks: You call an outsider cohort. Choose any Outsider with a CR at least 2 less than your character level. Your cohort levels when you do. You may dismiss your cohort at any time, but it permanently ends the arrangement. Calling a new cohort involves a ritual that takes 1 hour and the cohort arrives in 1 week.

14 ranks: You experience reduced error in arriving when using a Conjuration (Teleportation) effect. For all such effects, roll twice and take the better result.

Additionally, plane shift is a 5th level spell for you.

19 ranks: Any spell that lets you call an outsider increases by 2 the maximum HD of the outsider imposed by that spell.

Additionally, contact other plane has no risk of insanity when contacting an outsider you have made contact with via a summoning or calling effect. (You may choose to contact such an outsider when casting the spell).
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1177303065[/unixtime]]I suggest that instead of messing with how MM works "vertically", consider "horizontally":
Give the option to use an amount of spell levels equal to the MM adjustment rather than increase the level of the spell, or rather a combination of the 2 options.
QUicken would be possible at Sorcerer 1 but require most of their L1 spell they have to cast in a day (5).
L0 spells would count as half a spell level.


Again, I doubt you would see all that much metamagic used in such a system (though it would be more than present). It also allows things like Persistent to be cheesed, which is bad. My fix is still the only one which prevents the application of metamagic at level-inappropriate times.

Frankly, spells much lower than your maximum spell level should be able to be metamagicked fairly freely at no real cost - they're not especially good spells anymore. Spells near your maximum spell level should not be able to be monkeyed with that much, because they were already (in theory) balanced as written for the level of play you're at.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1177304423[/unixtime]]4 ranks: You double the area or volume of material you create with a Conjuration (Creation) effect.


Hmm, if only I'd created her before taking this feat.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by User3 »

Draco_Argentum at [unixtime wrote:1177318726[/unixtime]]
Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1177304423[/unixtime]]4 ranks: You double the area or volume of material you create with a Conjuration (Creation) effect.


Hmm, if only I'd created her before taking this feat.


Buh?

By the way, i would appreciate any balance suggestions - i know i'm playing with fire by giving Wizards more nice things.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by MrWaeseL »

Draco_Argentum at [unixtime wrote:1177318726[/unixtime]]
Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1177304423[/unixtime]]4 ranks: You double the area or volume of material you create with a Conjuration (Creation) effect.


Hmm, if only I'd created her before taking this feat.


You're into fat chicks?
Draco_Argentum
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by Draco_Argentum »

I said before, Lobsterface.
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Re: Fixing Metamagic

Post by Fwib »

Squirreloid, If your [Metamagic] feat makes no adjustment to the spell-slot, or has an LSLV of zero, or whatever, you ought to specify, I think.
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