shadowrun for a newbie

[josephbt]

it has been mentioned several times that shadowrun is an okay system that uses dice pools. since there are a couple of editions and sometimes the newest aren't the best, i was wondering if anyone could give me some help?
which edition is playable? are there some rules that i should aviod? which books to get or is the core enough? what to look out for concerning annoying stuff?

any re is apreciated

[Username17]

I am a biased source, but I like the 4th edition rules a lot. I like them so much that I learned them inside and out and began writing rules for it and getting them into FanPro's books.

Shadowrun has a different setup from D&D or nWoD as far as books go. The Basic Book has a reasonably playable set of rules for most character types, and a brief rundown of the world, and complete chargen rules and the core game mechanics. It is quite literally sufficient to run the whole game. Then there are Rules Books and Setting Books. The Rules Books are essentially like the D&D Complete series - Street Magic is the "Magic" complete book, and Augmentation is the "Cyberware" complete book (which will probabl be out in February I think. The Setting Books don't really have rules at all - usually stuff isn't even statted.

So if you aren't a Mage or an Adept, you don't need Street Magic. If you aren't playing in Hong Kong you don't need Shadows of Asia. The game is actually playable out of the starter book.

At this point I know way too much about the metaplot, and the ties to the old Earthdawn game (which are no longer being held onto because Earthdawn isn't being developed by the same people). But you really don't need to do that.

The Basic Book and Runner Havens and Google Earth is a good way to start a campaign. Pick a city out ofthat book and go.

-Username17

[Catharz]

1166779418[/unixtime]]
At this point I know way too much about the metaplot, and the ties to the old Earthdawn game (which are no longer being held onto because Earthdawn isn't being developed by the same people). But you really don't need to do that.

Can you expand on that? I have some of the Earthdawn books, but I don't really know enough Shadowrun to see the connection. Is this just something superficial, like how the astral plane works in a similar fashion, or is it deeper?

[Modesitt]

Catharz,

Way deeper. Check out Ancient History's website. Just pick a file and start reading. In a nutshell: They're set in the same world. Earthdawn is the 4th age. Shadowrun is the 6th age.

[Catharz]

Thanks for the link, that's pretty cool. It also partially explains why some of the fantasy elements of Shadowrun seem so disjointed from the setting.

With enough pruning, Earthdawn had the potential to be truely awesome, and I can totally see the benefit of incorporating more of it's magical philosophy into Shadowrun. Just as long as I don't have to see another fucking Windling. Having generic fantasy races is bad enough.

You could definately take the "horrors" thing and run with it if you wanted to make Shadowrun into a darker (i.e. more 'Horror') setting.

Now that I'm on winter break I've been thinking of starting up a short Shadowrun campaign with a few friends of mine. I'm already planning on overhauling the system a bit, especially the metahumanity and magic.

Oh ya, and sorry for hijacking the thread...

[Crissa]

...The concept of Windlings got really old, really quick once playing...

-Crissa

[Username17]

You could definately take the "horrors" thing and run with it if you wanted to make Shadowrun into a darker (i.e. more 'Horror') setting.

Metaplot wise they are sort of dealt with for the moment. Insert crazy-talk:

Mana spikes left over from the Ghost Dance were going to let the Scourge in early on the mana cycle!

Aztechnology, under the direction of Dunkelzahn (who was a board member of that corporation) gave a whole bunch of research grants to a cabal of evil blood mages who created modern cybermancy and attempted to bring the horrors back across the mana spikes. But it turned out to be a setup, because Dunkelzahn took the research data and had all the blood mages shot in the face and made a magical doohickey with the power given off by his own death that shut down the whole mana bridge and also Dunkelzahn came back as a cyberzombie.

So now there's only a few horrors who made it over and the Scourge isn't possible for like a couple of thousand years.

Like I say, I know god damned way too much about the Shadowrun metaplot. When I write shit in, it's relatively minor stuff like the Cola Wars in Southeast Asia (see Street Magic, p. 89).

-Username17

[Catharz]

I should really just go to half-price books and see if they still have all those Shadowrun setting books on the clearance rack.

1166836414[/unixtime]]
Like I say, I know god damned way too much about the Shadowrun metaplot. When I write shit in, it's relatively minor stuff like the Cola Wars in Southeast Asia (see Street Magic, p. 89).

-Username17

The Cola Wars of Southeast Asia. Wow. Is this seriously like Pepsi vs. Bikkle? Because I'm trying to wrap my head around why Awakened mercenaries are being hired for combat missions in Vietnam by cola companies, even if Red really does taste better than Blue.

[Username17]

1166935218[/unixtime]]I should really just go to half-price books and see if they still have all those Shadowrun setting books on the clearance rack.

That's the theory behind making the setting books rules-light. Shadows of Asia was actually written for 3rd edition, but it's still a pretty decent resource for 4th.

The Cola Wars of Southeast Asia. Wow. Is this seriously like Pepsi vs. Bikkle? Because I'm trying to wrap my head around why Awakened mercenaries are being hired for combat missions in Vietnam by cola companies, even if Red really does taste better than Blue.

In 2006, the major cola companies hire tribal chiefs as mercenaries in Southeast Asia and Latin America to enforce monopolies in areas and guaranty a market for their product.

In the dark shadowrun future, they take it a little bit farther in that the corporations are allowed (and expected) to keep their own standing military forces. So now it's not simply a matter of "If you can forcibly prevent people from selling hostile product in a region you can charge more money" - it's "If your army defeats their army in a major battle you can use that fact as the centerpiece of a global ad campaign."

So Coca Cola has various mercenary units and a standing corporate military. But they also have an elite group called the Minute Men - named after the elite partisan forces that won the Revolutionary War. But also named after Minute Maid - the Coca Cola company's juice brand. The elites of the red faction have a name which is designed as a form of branding - their successes are associated with the strength of the brand so they equip the crap out of it.

This group gets a mention in Street Magic, p. 89 if I recall correctly.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

I finally got a chance to really look at SR4 in some detail and I've got some SR4 questions for the SR savvy, mainly about hacking stuff.

OK, you can only access something that's within range of the weakest signal strength, so how is it that you hack people's cybereyes, as they are signal 0 (range 3 meters)?

Do you always have to be within signal range or is it possible to remotely connect by passing your signal through multiple nodes? For instance, is it possible to hack a device by hacking someone's commlink first (which has a better signal rating)? Is it possible to hack someplace from your home several miles away or do you have to always be close enough in signal strength? Does AR or VR make a difference?

What about dead zones? Does a dead zone mean that you can't access your own devices wirelessly?

[Username17]

OK, you can only access something that's within range of the weakest signal strength, so how is it that you hack people's cybereyes, as they are signal 0 (range 3 meters)?

Right. You need to either do it all stealthy in a non-combat situation (like being in the same restaraunt as your victim and giving yourself a back door) or with a retransmitter (either some other device on the other man's person or through a retransmitter that you literally throw into range all Ghost in the Shell 2 style).

What about dead zones? Does a dead zone mean that you can't access your own devices wirelessly?

Dead Zones means no mesh networking is possible. You can't data search info, you can't connect to your home materials or send for your car. But direct communications still work fine.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

Frank, in 4th Ed, did they fix the 'stacking astral barriers in astral barriers' rule?

Also, how exactly would a mage who likes to have buffs or possession running 24/7 (because they used Edge to break the limits of sustaining foci and want to keep their best results) get around problems of being detected or risk having their spells broken by an astral barrier?

Also, what's the legality of running around with sustained spells? Do they have magicians constantly scanning the streets for magicians with a lot of crap on their astral signature and then they file away the astral signature for later? Or what? Actually, how would you be able to hand out details of one person's astral signature to other people? Like say some security mage determined some shadowrunner's astral signature (and nothing else) and wants to relay this information to the rest of the corporate system? How would he or she do this?

Finally, if someone INSISTED in your party on playing a mystic adept focused heavily on buffs and unarmed combat (not me this time srsly) and you couldn't insist on them becoming a magician, what advice would you have for them? And how would I encourage this person to cover their own ass?

[Lago_AM3P]

While we're on the subject, just what the hell does Analyze Device supposed to do? Does it work with cars? Rigging? Swords? Chainsaws? Guns? Figuring out what cyberware someone has on them?

[RandomCasualty]

1167093962[/unixtime]]
Right. You need to either do it all stealthy in a non-combat situation (like being in the same restaraunt as your victim and giving yourself a back door) or with a retransmitter (either some other device on the other man's person or through a retransmitter that you literally throw into range all Ghost in the Shell 2 style).

I'm not sure I understand how retransmitters work in general. Direct hacking seems simple enough, but what matrix actions do you go about to hack through an object? Though obviously, because the TRack action exists, it's possible to connect through multiple nodes and create a path of sorts.

Though reading through the matrix section, I didn't find any part that explains how that works if I wanted to for instance, hack someone's commlink then try to hack his cyberarm through the comlink.

How does that work? Do you have to use VR to do it, or can you do it with AR? How many interconnections can you have? How does it work if you wanted to connect to a node on the other side of the world for instance?

[Username17]

Note: Before I get too far into the Hacking thing, remember that I'm currently not part of the Unwired team so I'm just a guy who's read trhe rulebook talking. So I'll touch on the other issues firster:

Frank, in 4th Ed, did they fix the 'stacking astral barriers in astral barriers' rule?

I don't know what you mean by "fix", do you mean "like a cat"? If so, the answer is "yes".

Wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area of astral space.

There's nothing stopping you from warding an area that happens to be hollow and filling that area up with a new ward - but you actually have to have some physical objects to tether that to so you have to make your architecture into a ganutlet if you want to put an astral gauntlet in. But that's a limitation of real-world design consideratins and the fact that Shadowrun allows people to use actual topology instead of "map squares".

Also, how exactly would a mage who likes to have buffs or possession running 24/7 (because they used Edge to break the limits of sustaining foci and want to keep their best results) get around problems of being detected or risk having their spells broken by an astral barrier?

Aura Masking. Specifically using it to fool wards (Street Magic, p. 124), and getting the advanced metamagic of Extended Masking (Street Magic, p. 60) to cover your spells and foci and such.

Also, what's the legality of running around with sustained spells?

Restricted. That means that you have to convince a corporation or government that you should be allowed to run around with whatever spell it is that you want to run around with. Once you've done that, security contractors will then treat you and your spell as befits their opinion of the organization which issued the certification.

Or you could fake a license from whatever organization you wanted. Licenses can be granted for anything, but of course it's going to be hard to convince the local law enforcement contractor that they should honor your license to have a fire aura going while they are protecting a fireworks factory...

Note also that if you have a license for a spell to be going, a lot of law enforcement units won't know if you use a different spell. Especially if it's in the same category. Your spell is often going to be licensed to you as something batshit like "The Crimson Protection of the Dunkalfar" and noone outside your tradition is even going to know what that means.

Actually, how would you be able to hand out details of one person's astral signature to other people?

Magical; Formulae. You'd have to make some tradition-specific object that described whatever the fvck it was that was important about the aura. There's a Mandala Library in Tibet, but most groups don't even fvcking bother. It's telepathic communication (as from a conjurer to her spirit) or not at all for most folks.

While we're on the subject, just what the hell does Analyze Device supposed to do?

It's supposed to be really lame until it becomes ungodly stupid powerful I think.

Here's the deal: The threshold is the item's OR, and you get a dicepool bonus equal to the amount you exceed that total with your hits on the spell casting test.

But you also get to take a dicepool penalty for sustaining the spell and maybe Drain as well. So if you aren't getting a +3 bonus you literally aren't getting anything at all. But of course, if you are, then it basically turns you into "Awesome Man" who can get a modest to major bonus on absolutely anything.

Finally, if someone INSISTED in your party on playing a mystic adept focused heavily on buffs and unarmed combat (not me this time srsly) and you couldn't insist on them becoming a magician, what advice would you have for them?

Oog. Stick to Adept powers that are not easily replicable with spells. Do not take Killing Hands when you can just cast Shatter. But take Improved Ability because it's awesometastic.

I'm not sure I understand how retransmitters work in general.
...
Though reading through the matrix section, I didn't find any part that explains how that works if I wanted to for instance, hack someone's commlink then try to hack his cyberarm through the comlink.

Ifyou have full access to a node you can be in that node as far as hacking is concerned. You need to have an account on that node before you can hack into another node from it - so hacking a commlink and then a cybereye is a two-step process.

Retransmitting is just how the matrix works normally. You don't have to keep track of slowdown from connecting through multiple retransmitters. So long as every step in the chain is within speaking and hearing range of the next link up and down the chain it's just like you were connecting directly.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

There's nothing stopping you from warding an area that happens to be hollow and filling that area up with a new ward - but you actually have to have some physical objects to tether that to so you have to make your architecture into a ganutlet if you want to put an astral gauntlet in. But that's a limitation of real-world design consideratins and the fact that Shadowrun allows people to use actual topology instead of "map squares"

If that's the case, it seems like the standard skyscraper office building is the perfect topology for making an astral gauntlet, since it's damned hard to enter a top floor through any other means but a staircase or elevator.

However, what kind of secrets/security/danger level are we looking at before a Shadowrunning team encounters that level of pain? What kind of MacGuffin would justify the cost and paranoia of a '10 wards of justice' gauntlet-style painmaze? Like do they have to hold magicians who suddenly broke the laws of magic to allow teleporting or what?

Or you could fake a license from whatever organization you wanted. Licenses can be granted for anything, but of course it's going to be hard to convince the local law enforcement contractor that they should honor your license to have a fire aura going while they are protecting a fireworks factory...

Frank, to your knowledge what would be a good general-purpose excuse for a mage to be running around with non-destructive buffs like combat sense and improved reflexes 24/7 and how would you back it up?

Magical; Formulae. You'd have to make some tradition-specific object that described whatever the fvck it was that was important about the aura. There's a Mandala Library in Tibet, but most groups don't even fvcking bother. It's telepathic communication (as from a conjurer to her spirit) or not at all for most folks.

Well, then how does the game deal with magicians who left behind an astral signature at one point but evaded iRL capture/detection while the trail went cold?

It's supposed to be really lame until it becomes ungodly stupid powerful I think.

Here's the deal: The threshold is the item's OR, and you get a dicepool bonus equal to the amount you exceed that total with your hits on the spell casting test.

But you also get to take a dicepool penalty for sustaining the spell and maybe Drain as well. So if you aren't getting a +3 bonus you literally aren't getting anything at all. But of course, if you are, then it basically turns you into "Awesome Man" who can get a modest to major bonus on absolutely anything.

I suppose a better question is what analyze device /can't/ be used for. Does it work on weapon foci? On regular meat fists? On rope?


Also, unfinished questions from before.

1) Could a magician/mystic adept who focused on unarmed combat gain a bunch of arbitrary attacks by splitting his or her spellcasting dice pool all towards one target? Say they cast 'knockout' at force 1 with a dicepool of 5 die and attacked in a rapid flurry of attacks. They don't really care about the spell landing, they just want to go The World on foes.

2) The Shadowrun advancement system seems to be a little bit unfair. It doesn't reward much extra karma for taking on runs of a higher difficulty but the only way to make the Big Bux for stuff like deltaware is to take on higher-paying jobs. Which will be harder.

So if you wanted to make MegaMages or SuperOtaku, it seems the best thing to do, no matter how powerful you are, is to hang out in the slums and take on runs where the worst thing you'll have to worry about is maybe a stray hellhound or the occasional weak-ass shaman. Street Samurai don't have that luxury. What gives?

3) Unrelated to the above two questions, but how the fuck do I find a deltaware clinic and how do I get in on that shit without it coming back to haunt me?

[Lago_AM3P]

I know this is getting annoying, but I have yet another question. Or two.

Say two characters used Edge to go first. Who actually goes first?

Also, what's the maximum-sized vessel a spirit can possess? Does this change if you're able to summon great form spirits? Also, say I wanted to go Son Goku or Orochimaru on my enemies with weapons? What would you recommend?

[Catharz]

1167434424[/unixtime]]I know this is getting annoying, but I have yet another question. Or two.

Say two characters used Edge to go first. Who actually goes first?

I think it says right there under 'uses for edge.' Something like, 'if two characters both use edge to go first, they roll initiative as normal and the higher one goes first, the lower second.'

[Lago_AM3P]

Okay, confession time.

I didn't really want an answer to the Edge question, I just wanted to bump the thread with a barrage of new unanswered twinky mage questions. That was just a cover to make me look less obsessed.

Is that a crime?

[RandomCasualty]

1167100475[/unixtime]]
Ifyou have full access to a node you can be in that node as far as hacking is concerned. You need to have an account on that node before you can hack into another node from it - so hacking a commlink and then a cybereye is a two-step process.

Retransmitting is just how the matrix works normally. You don't have to keep track of slowdown from connecting through multiple retransmitters. So long as every step in the chain is within speaking and hearing range of the next link up and down the chain it's just like you were connecting directly.

Do you have to maintain connections to each node individually when retransmitting? Like does it count against your maximum number of matrix connections, or can you just connect to the node you actually want to access, like the cybereyes, or do you have to be connected to the cybereyes and the commlink?

[Catharz]

1167451189[/unixtime]]Okay, confession time.

I didn't really want an answer to the Edge question, I just wanted to bump the thread with a barrage of new unanswered twinky mage questions. That was just a cover to make me look less obsessed.

Is that a crime?

Actually, I'd like to see those answered too...

[Lago_AM3P]

More questions of Hatred, Pain, Suffering, and Woe.

Fighting with two weapons. Can this be done with unarmed strikes? If so, what are the benefits?

If someone if fighting with Magic Fingers, what would their reach be for these attacks?

[Catharz]

1167497590[/unixtime]]More questions of Hatred, Pain, Suffering, and Woe.

Fighting with two weapons. Can this be done with unarmed strikes? If so, what are the benefits?

If someone if fighting with Magic Fingers, what would their reach be for these attacks?

Are these real questions, or just stealth bumps?


Anyway, it seems like TWF can be done unarmed, and the benefit is that you get an extra attack (which probably does not outweigh the penalty of splitting your dice pool).

And the reach for magic fingers would be...zero, although you might get a reach of one if you're a troll.

[Lago_AM3P]

No, not a stealth bump. These are questions that didn't get answered before.

Anyway, it seems like TWF can be done unarmed, and the benefit is that you get an extra attack (which probably does not outweigh the penalty of splitting your dice pool)

The people at the Dumpshock Forums seem to have thought otherwise, but, eh.

And the reach for magic fingers would be...zero, although you might get a reach of one if you're a troll.

And just why would you have a reach of zero when attacking someone across the room with this spell?

Why would you have LESS of a reach bonus when attacking someone with fists at 30 feet than attacking someone with a 10 feet reach?

[Modesitt]

Why would you have LESS of a reach bonus when attacking someone with fists at 30 feet than attacking someone with a 10 feet reach?

Because we don't want people to have unlimited bonuses to their melee tests?

Edit: Um. too glib.

Wave your hands and say 'MAGIC' with me. If you want to rationalize it, say it's because magic fingers doesn't give you a big long arm/pole that you can use to interfere with the opponent, it just lets you do stuff from far away in a manner that's no different than just throwing a knife at someone or shooting them with a gun.