Cheese Updates, 3.5

[Jack_Lurch]

This was written in 3e. In 3.5 there would, of course, have to be a major readjustment.

Would you mind giving us a rundown of the 3.5 cleric archer, and perhaps your druid builds, adjusted for 3.5 as well?

Thanks.

-Jack

[Username17]

It's in a transition period right now - I'm just going through the Complete Warrior now. Or rather, I'm not going through it because all of my final exams are on Monday. Time spent updating the cheese (and it's gotten really complicated now - the new Druid builds have gotten no less than 6 new infinite power loops out of the Shapechange revision alone) would be better spent reviewing Biochemistry notes until Monday night, I think.

-Username17

[Jack_Lurch]

I completely understand. I should be studying for finals myself instead of reading a message board or three.

-Jack

[Ramnza]

Likewise. In fact I'm putting off studying right now. I have two finals tomorrow and one on Wed. This is the first time I can really take a good look at the board...might feel differently tomorrow though when I look at the test.

Anyhow, I can't wait to see this. I love druids. In fact I play one right now.

Good luck on finals guys.

[Username17]

OK, this isn't even close to done - but I'm running out of time before my next final. Here's an example of what a Druid looks like after manipulating the stuff in the Book of Exalted Deeds. I haven't really done the spells yet, and I'm steering away from the infinite power loops - so the numbers may look extremely low right now.

Poverty Druid v. 3.5
This character is going to made without reference to magical equipment at all - and thus is going to take advantage of the Book of Exalted Deed’s Vow of Poverty cheese. This is very convenient, as it doesn’t need to answer the question of what items from 3e source books do with respect to 3.5 rules.

Neutral Good Human Druid 20

Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph’s Kiss (b), Intuitive Attack (b), Touch of Golden Ice (b), Sanctify Natural Attack (b), Exalted Wildshape (b), Celestial Companion (b), Animal Friendship (b), Purify Spell-like Ability (b), Exalted Spell Resistance (b), Vow of Obedience (b), Natural Spell, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Speaking Wildshape, Multiattack, Extra Wildshape
(Combat Form has Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Blind Fighting, Snatch, and of course - Quicken Spell-like Ability).

Special Abilities:
Celestial Triceratops companion (has 18 hit dice)
Nature Sense
Wild Empathy +28
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Nature’s Lure
Venom Immunity
A Thousand Faces
Timeless Body
Wild Shape: Tiny to Huge Animal or Plant: 8/day
Wild Shape: Small to Huge Elemental: 4/day
+10 Exalted Bonus to AC
Endure Elements
Exalted Strike: +5 Enhancement Bonus, Good Aligned attacks
Does not need to eat, drink, or breathe
+3 Deflection Bonus to AC
+3 Resistance Bonus to all Saves
Stat Enhancement Bonuses: +8 Wisdom, +6 Strength, +4 Constitution, +2 Dexterity
Natural Armor Increase +2
Mind Shielding
DR 5/magic
DR 10/evil
Energy Resistance 15 to Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Sonic.
Continually under the influence of Freedom of Movement
Fast Healing: 1 point/3 minutes; Subdual heals at 2 points per five rounds.
Continuously benefits from True Seeing

Combat Form also has:
Constrict (2d8 + 37 damage + Golden Ice + 1/1d4 against evil/outsiders)
Crush (DC 30 inflicts Constriction Damage and Golden Ice while pinning)
Disease (DC 30)
DR 15/ Good and Silver
Improved Grab
Poison (DC 30)
Regeneration 5 (good and silver, or good spells)
See in Darkness
Frightful Presence (DC 24)
Suggestion DC 17
Immunity: Sleep, Acid, Cold, Fire, Poison
Blindsense: 60 feet.
obscuring mist
fog cloud
water breathing
control water
ice storm
cone of cold
acid fog
horrid wilting
elemental swarm
plane shift
DR 10/Magic
Smite Evil
Fear Aura DC 24
Telepathy 100 ft.
SR 32 (36 against Evil creatures)

Stats: Note: I decided to use Default Array on this character (the initial applications of which are the first set of numbers) because it really sincerely doesn’t make a damn bit of difference and it’s the most restrictive stat generation system available. Obviously, an actual character would have proportionately higher stats. The alternate stat line is for the combat form detailed below:
Str: 10 (43)
Dex: 13 (29)
Con: 8 (31)
Int: 14 (19)
Wis: 15 (32)
Cha: 12 (18)

Combat Form AC: 52 (+30 Natural +10 Exalted -1 Size, +3 Deflection)
Atacks: 2 Claws +33 (2d8+20 plus snatch plus constriction and Golden Ice +1d4 against evil), 2 Wings +31 (2d6+13 and Golden Ice +1d4 against evil), Tail Slap (2d8+13 plus Improved Grab and Constriction and Golden Ice +1d4 against evil) Bite +31 (4d6+13 plus poison plus disease and Golden Ice +1d4 against evil)
Golden Ice DC is 24.

Grapple Bonus +44

So with a full attack, she can potentially inflict Golden Ice 9 times - and Constrict Damage 3 times. This is obviously more of an ability damage character - as she can easily inflict 9d6 of Dexterity damage in a single round.

Spells/day (all can be cast a free action): (I’ll fill these out later, I’m running short on time)
1st: 8:
2nd: 8: Barkskin
3rd: 8:
4th: 7:
5th: 7:
6th: 6:
7th: 6:
8th: 5:
9th: 5:Shapechange! Like 5 times.

Equipment: She is actually forbidden from accumulating equipment, so she has nothing to do with her potential rewards than accumulate Inherent Bonuses - so at this point she has a +5 bonus to each stat.

Wildshaping: Here’s the fun part, there’s no reason for her to ever be in her “normal” form - so she never is. In her basic Combat Form she is a Half-Water Elemental Celestial Adult Green Dragon (which oddly enough, is legal, despite the fact that you can’t do that sort of thing with any of the other form of transmutation effects), but then she immediately enhances that further by using the Shapechange to become a Pit Fiend.

Now, when she wants to emphasize her role as a spellcaster, she becomes an Immoth, which has the ability to prepare any spell she knows as an Ice Rune which can be triggered as a Free Action. There’s no time limit on that - so she just does that every single morning before becoming her “normal” forms.

Just walking around, it seems to be most advantageous to be a Half-Air Elemental Exalted Marilith - I simply don’t see the downside to that. Note, I’m using the Shapechange “fix” that reduces the hit die limit to 20 - and voluntarily avoiding any of the creatures (like Balors and Chronotyrin) which are inherently infinite loops - as I regard that as invalidating the cheese.

-Username17

[fbmf]

OK, this isn't even close to done - but I'm running out of time before my next final.

Emphasis mine.

That, ladies and gentlemen, is dedication.

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

Heh. It was the Genetics Final. It started at 40, and it's 5:20 and I am back in my room. I feel pretty good about that one - since I only needed an 86 to get a 90% on the class, I have a lot of leeway.

Not nearly so on the Biochem Final. I for some reason completely forgot how Adenine was put together and had to reverse engineer it on the back of my test from first principles. I felt like such a retard. Oh well, hopefully I'll get the B I need to not have to retake this course in Med School.

-Username17

[fbmf]

Wildshaping: Here’s the fun part, there’s no reason for her to ever be in her “normal” form - so she never is. In her basic Combat Form she is a Half-Water Elemental Celestial Adult Green Dragon (which oddly enough, is legal, despite the fact that you can’t do that sort of thing with any of the other form of transmutation effects), but then she immediately enhances that further by using the Shapechange to become a Pit Fiend.

Didn't they change the errata on the Shifter so assuming templates is no longer possible?

Game On,
fbmf

PS - Good luck with your finals.

[Jack_Lurch]

I for some reason completely forgot how Adenine was put together

Yeah, I hate it when that happens. Its a bitch.

I'm a Journalism major. These are problems I don't have.

Thanks for the Druid build, though, and good luck on the rest of your finals.

-Jack

[Username17]

Didn't they change the errata on the Shifter so assuming templates is no longer possible?

Not exactly. They changed it so that only Elemental Wildshape and Polymorph Any Object can change into Templated Forms.

And Consecrated Wildshape lets you slap the Celestial Template on things. It might as well be called "You have Smite Evil Now."

BTW - since you keep PrC abilities if you lose acces to the prereqs - and you can take the class if you sometimes meet the prereqs - and Elemental Wildshape gives you feats - A druid with Elemental Wildshape actual qualifies for just about any PrC ever printed. Even obscure ones that require access to domains you don't have.

Interesting note: as of the latest FAQ answer on this (which is still official, but was written for 3rd edition), any ability not defined as Ex, Su, or Sp is natural - and thus a 15th level Wizard can permanently gain the ability to cast spells as a 16th level Druid by using Polymorph Any Object. More extreme examples are, of course, available, by transforming into creatures with more impressive or applicable natural spellcaster (such as Ethergaunts).

-Username17

[Count Arioch the 28th]

My god.

You hear that sound? that's my former respect for Andy Collins plummeting after reading how insanely easy it is to do something that rediculous. None of that SHOULD work, but it does, by the RAW.

I used to think the guy had some good ideas, but that's only because they were mine first, a lot of them were anyway. But that? Well, it actually looks a lot like something I would have designed myself, to be honest, except that I'm not getting paid for it, and I acknowledge that I suck.

Oh, and good luck on your finals, but to be honest, someone who thinks they're a retard for not remembering how to make Adenine probably doesn't have too much to worry about.

(Considering that I'm a ecology major/chem minor, I might be going through Biochem at some point myself.)

[fbmf]

Golden Ice DC is 24.

Why is it ten points higher than garden variety Golden Ice?

Game On,
fbmf

[Username17]

Why is it ten points higher than garden variety Golden Ice?

Because it is now a supernatural ability of a creature and therefore governed by those rules.

Similarly, if you advance a Wyven up some hit dice the DC will rise accordingly - despite the fact that it is still using "Wyvern Venom" in its stinger.

-Username17

[Jack_Lurch]

How about an update of the Archer Cleric?

Other than the GMW nerfs and using Quicken instead of Persistant Spell, what else needs changing?

-Jack

[Username17]

Why would you need to use Quicken instead of Persistent?

Persistent is still official in 3.5!

3.5 is supposedly "back compatible" with 3rd edition rules. That is to say, anything that you can find in a 3rd edition rulebook you can still use - unless it has itself been updated into 3.5 rules in which case the newer version takes precedence.

So Spell Focus only provides a measily +1 to Save DCs, but Spellcasting Prodigy still gives you a whole +2 to your spellcasting stat (which, among other things, adds +1 to the save DC of every spell you ever cast from any school). Which means, oddly enough, that everything which didn't make it into 3.5 because it was overpowered is still exactly the same (and often slightly better -relatively speaking - as the overall power level except for abusive tricks took a nose dive in 3.5).

Be that as it may, here are the big rules things to keep track of for the Archer Cleric:

* The Archer Cleric now benefits from carrying a sling as a back-up weapon, as ranged sunders with adamantine sling bullets practically always work against everything (except Adamantine Swords).

* Arrows no longer have their enhancement bonus stack with bow enhancement bonuses for damage or to-hit bonuses. Therefore all Archer Clerics should invest in Arrows of Defending - as this allows the Cleric to utilize the enhancement bonus from one greater magic weapon for the to-hit and damage bonus, and the other to armor class. In fact, since it stacks with all other bonuses (including that of other defending arrows fired that round), and the bonus lasts until next turn, this is a handy way to get +30 AC in unnamed, stackable bonuses (assuming, of course, that you are using Haste Armor backed up by Magic Vestment, which you are because you are not stupid).

* Cleric Archers can now benefit from having a higher strength from Polymorph any Object - as bows are no longer capped at any strength modifier, and Divine Power no longer caps your strength at 18. The obvious choice, of course, is to become a Solar or an Elemental Weird as their "spells" ability is of course a "special attack" which is neither Supernatural nor Spell-like (and the Weird's elemental pool restriction is a special quality that you don't even get).

* Barkskin now cumulates with the natural armor bonus granted by Poly Any Object.

* You can jack up your caster level to levels which are... very high. Since the only real use a spellcaster level over 20 has is to kill things with Holy Word - you are now free to squander up to 3 caster levels on classes that give you other abilities and still achieve maximum whupass at 20th level. Of course, the Hospitaler and such are still official, so it probably doesn't matter much.

* Tower Shields no longer give a +10 AC bonus, but instead give only a +4 AC bonus. They also no longer stack with other animated shields (total AC loss of -13).

* Haste no longer gives a +4 AC bonus, but instead gives only +1. However it also gives to-hit and save bonuses now.

* If you are willing to be evil, you can be a cleric archer without ever being a "Cleric" at all. A Wizard 5/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 1/ MyTh 10/ Hospitaler 1/ Contemplative 1/ Master of Shrouds 1, for example, has a Wizard caster level of 16, and an Ur-Priest caster level of 22. In addition, she has no less than 5 domains (of which 3, are, unfortunately, Death, Evil, and Protection), and a Prestige Domain. She has proficiency in every martial weapon, so the War Domain is not strictly speaking a necessity.

Other than that - it's pretty much the same. The weapon sizes are much more open to abuse and of course GMW grows much slower (unless you use Karma Beads, in which case it grows as fast as you want it to).

In total, the Cleric Archer is about 2 or 3 points of attack bonus behind, but has gained 22 points of armor class and does 5.5 more points of damage per hit. And that's before we get into Ur-Priest crazy-land.

-Username17

[fbmf]

Frank,

One of your druid builds on Nifty mentions enhanced wild shape. Where is that from?

Game On,
fbmf

[Thoth_Amon]

I am guessing here, but he does list this source in things he uses in that build:

Dragon Magazine: Masters of the Wild Supplement

TA

EDIT I am not sure I have that one so I need to go see before I could be more definitive.

[Username17]

Yeppers, that's the origin of that particular spell.

It comes from the fact that there are no clear guidelines of what makes things "Epic". Becoming a Beast with Wildshape, for example, was available as an Epic Feat - or as the result of a single casting of a 4th level spell (which since it was a divine spell - everyone knew anyway).

The cost disparity of these two methods cannot be overstated.

-Username17

[Username17]

The Caster Level Loophole Characters:

Ciqueda, Master of Darkness

Books used: Core, BoVD, FRCS (Monsters of Faerun, Unapproachable East), OA, Skip Hates Sorcerers.

Ciqueda began her career as a Rogue, and quickly took on the study of the Dark Arts. This character relies upon the unique mechanic of “Spell Conversion” - which allows a character to trade any spellcaster levels in towards a single class - combined with the spell level stacking abilities of the Ur Priest and the True Necromancer to gain a Maho Tsukai caster level much higher than her actual character level. By picking levels for trade-in from many different spellcasting classes, the character ends up with a spell list in her Maho Tsukai class that is extremely large. And since Maho Tsukais cast spells spontaneously - this gives the character a phenominal amount of versatility.

Second, the character benefits tremendously from the fact that a PrC - once qualified for - does not actually need to be qualified for subsequently. Thus, a single casting of PaO (1,200 gp) can allow a character to qualify for absolutely any racially based PrC. In this case, the class in question is “Beholder Mage” - chosen for the fact that it has no prereqs at all save that you have a specific race under your belt - which in turn can be acquired by the previously mentioned dubious technique of polymorphing.

Level Progression:
1 Rogue
2 Ranger
3 Ranger
4 Beholder Mage
5 Beholder Mage
6 Ur-Priest
7 Ur-Priest
8 MyTh
9 MyTh
10 MyTh
11 Nar Demon Binder
12 MyTh
13 MyTh
14 MyTh
15 MyTh
16 MyTh
17 MyTh
18 MyTh
19 True Necromancer
20 Maho Tsukai

The character, just before acquiring the Maho Tsukai class, has a Beholder Mage caster level of 11, and a Nar Demon Binder caster level equal to 3 plus her Ur-Priest Caster Level, which is in turn equal to 12 plus half all her other caster levels combined. In total, this puts her Nar Demonbinder caster level at 40, and her Ur-Priest caster level at 37. When she takes a level of Maho Tsukai she trades in the entirety of her Nar Demonbinder caster progression and her Ur-Priest caster progression together, as well as a single level of Beholder Mage - resulting in a Maho Tsukai caster level of seventy eight.

Of perhaps more interest is the fact that she is now able to cast any of the spells she knew in her combined spellcasting classes spontaneously with her Maho Tsukai caster progression. Which since she in fact knew the entirety of the Cleric list (as well as a not inconsiderable packet of Nar Demonbinder and Wizard spells) - this entitles her to cast virtually any spell at any time.

Here’s the fun part - her save DC for her spells is now 10 + her Taint Score + Spell Level. She can also voluntarily raise her Taint Score by one every single time she casts a spell. Now, she suffers a Wisdom Penalty of half her Taint Score - so her Taint Score shouldn’t ever get more than twice her wisdom minus 4 or so. Note that unlike other Maho Tsukai - she can actually spontaneously cast Heal or Remove Disease. This means that she can regulate her Taint Score with great precision. So since she began life with a Wisdom of 16, and now presumably has a Wisdom of about 27, she will probably want to play it conservatively and maintain a Taint score of about 40.

So the DC of her grease spell is 52. And her caster level is 78. So you can’t really make saves against her and she goes through spell resistance like it was made of wax paper.

-Username17

[Jack_Lurch]

Second, the character benefits tremendously from the fact that a PrC - once
qualified for - does not actually need to be qualified for subsequently.

Where is the specific wording for this? I looked in the 3.5 DMG, but I
can't seem to find it.

And what the hell is a Mao Tsukai or whatever?

-Jack

EDIT: Fixed quote tags

[Username17]

Where is the specific wording for this? I looked in the 3.5 DMG, but I can't seem to find it.

What you are actually looking for is what the rules say that prereqs actually do. Looking for what is says they don't do is fruitless, of course, because they can't and won't address that in any complete manner.

If a character cannot meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, the character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

That's what prereqs do. They determine whether or not you can, in fact, take the first level of a Prestige Class. They don't make your abilities go away if you stop meeting them - they don't call you up on the phone and reject your application for the second level - they just determine whether or not you can take the first level.

And what the hell is a Mao Tsukai or whatever?

It's an Oriental Adventures prestige class that inevitably sends you down a route of dark power and madness. It is only balanced under the assumption that the only magical classes available are Sorcerer or Shugenja (both of which are asstastic anyway), as it gets a lot of spells per day and transfers over all spells known from previous classes to the Maho Tsukai spells known list.

It's broken even in conjuction with the Shaman - which is normally avoided because you can't be a Shaman in Rokugan and Maho Tsukais are practitioners of the blood speakers - a Rokugani cult. Bust out with some Planescape or Spelljammer - and you get the explosive insanity that is the character detailed above.

-Username17

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I was under the impression that if your taint ever got to 10 or higher, your character got taken away from you to the pits of Fu Leng and turned into a near mindless slave-creature?

[Username17]

Not exactly. When you reach a taint of 10 you have to go off and become trained as a Maho Bujin or Maho Tsukai - a period where you are not in control of your character and become evil.

However, if you are already a Maho Tsukai - this doesn't happen (it also wouldn't happen if you were already a Maho Bujin, except that this process is a prerequsite for becoming a Maho Bujin, so it can't come up).

The only limit to the taint of a Maho Tsukai is that their Wisdom is reduced by half of their Taint score, and when their Wisdom hits zero they pass out and don't wake up.

Although come to think of it - a Maho Tsukai can actually take a level of Maho Bujin by travelling to the festering pit - and then gain the Crimson Road ability where they gain iterative attacks at every 3 BAB instead of every 5 - and then cast Divine Power and totally have a grip of attacks...

-Username17

[Oberoni]

That ascetic druid is some hot, hot stuff.

Sounds fun, versatile, and powerful.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1073582705[/unixtime]]
Although come to think of it - a Maho Tsukai can actually take a level of Maho Bujin by travelling to the festering pit - and then gain the Crimson Road ability where they gain iterative attacks at every 3 BAB instead of every 5 - and then cast Divine Power and totally have a grip of attacks...

-Username17

Ouch.