D&D: Alright, enough is enough!

[Captain_Bleach]

Greetings, fellow gamers! I am Captain Bleach, and I was intrigued by some board member's insight on the rules of many RPGs. Well, it was mostly K and Frank Trollman that caught my attention. They are good writers.

Okay, so I plan on getting some new players for D&D, and I have a couple of old-time players with me, and a few problems:
Here are the players, and what I will call them by to not use their real names:

Rulesmaster-This guy has played 3rd edition since it came out, and he has participated in thousands of Living Greyhawk adventures and played a high-level character of almost every class. He pretty much knows more about the rules than the flavor, and he admits that spell casters as they are could rule any D&D campaign setting without even trying.

Casual- This guy prefers on-the-go, quick design characters, and as such, NEVER plays spell casters. he will always have fun as long as there is a fun, full-throttle adventure to have, regardless of the genre, and his character gets to kick some Evil butt, or the occasional Good or Neutral, whoever ticks him off first.

Role-Over-Roll-Player- This person enjoys the thrill of the probability of the dice, but loves making detailed, three-dimensional characters who are never stale or dry. He prefers Bards, Rogues, and other skill-users.

WotC Loremaster: He deserved his name in that he can keep up to date with many of the first-party books, and pretty much ALL of his D&D books are published by Wizards of the Coast. The third-party books that he looks at are owned by me.

Okay, so Rulesmaster and Loremaster are currently playing spell casters, and Loremaster always plays spell casters, while Casual and Role-Player are playing a Barbarian and Fighter. Now, I have played with these guys for quite some time, and we are now at high (20th) level, but we still have several adventures to go. It has become readily apparent that the spell casters (A Wizard/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus, played by Rulesmaster, and a Conjurer/Alienist/Thaumaturgist, played by Loremaster) are quite obviously overshadowing the other characters, a Fighter played by Casual, and a Barbarian played by Role-player. Casual and Role-player say that they are still having fun, even though they are being overshadowed in all aspects, even combat, by the spell casters. Loremaster has resorted heavily to Evard's Black Tentacles to avoid killing the monsters and giving the noncasters enough time to get in some shots. All would be fine and well, but when Rulesmaster or Loremaster cast a spell and use it in some unusual fashion, and I interpret the rules differently than they do, we spend a few minutes at most arguing over what happens. This happens more frequently when they play spell casters than anything else. I also am planning on introducing several new players to D&D, and I do not want them to feel overshadowed if they decide to play anything other than a full caster.

What I want:

1.) When I complete my current campaign, I want to find a rules system (Which does not have to be d20) and/or campaign setting that makes playing non and partial casters as fun as playing full casters.
2.) A design that allows the non and partial casters to not be bested in every way by full casters.
3.) An easily interpreted rules system that will not have minutes-long arguments over what happens whenever somebody does a complicated and/or cinematic action.
Any comments, suggestion, questions, or otherwise are welcome!

[shirak]

You don't ask for much, do you? Welcome and let's give it a shot.

There are several systems that meet your parameters but obviously clash with your hidden assumptions. You want a D&Dish campaign where there are fighters and wizards and monsters around. That is workable but generally requires special measures to be taken.

1) Wushu. I am trying hard to use this for a Hong Kong Wuxia film style campaign but alas my players hate the idea. It is a system that will not solve any of your problems but it will make oneupmanship irrelevant.

2) Frank's S.A.M.E. System. We know you like him. We like him too. And we like this system too despite the fact that the lazy bastard never properly explained it and expects us to come up with questions he can answer. Which a lot of work that we avoid so the system is kinda... lite.




INCREDIBLY HEAVY IRONY, THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS PIECE OF ADVICE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES EVER!!!!!
3) For something different, try From Another Time, Another Land. More commonly known as FATAL


Seriously, don't do that. Here's why you shouldn't.

[Captain_Bleach]

I like the idea of the SAME system, except it is quite... brief.
As for Wushu, my computer upgraded to a version of Microsoft Word that I do not have, so I cannot read the download file.

I have looked at FATAL long before I discovered this board, and I think that it is a flawed system, and I am not talking just about the misogyny and racial stereotypes; there are way too many tables, and the author did not do enough research of "historical accuracy." I do not remember of Kobolds being as numerous as humans in the Middle Ages, let alone existing.

[shirak]

1184276360[/unixtime]]I like the idea of the SAME system, except it is quite... brief.

Hey, I did warn you!

1184276360[/unixtime]]As for Wushu, my computer upgraded to a version of Microsoft Word that I do not have, so I cannot read the download file.

I... cannot parse this sentence. Wushu Open is in rtf format so you can open it with Wordpad. I strongly suggest you install OpenOffice which is free and awesome but that's just me.

1184276360[/unixtime]]I have looked at FATAL long before I discovered this board, and I think that it is a flawed system, and I am not talking just about the misogyny and racial stereotypes; there are way too many tables, and the author did not do enough research of "historical accuracy." I do not remember of Kobolds being as numerous as humans in the Middle Ages, let alone existing.

Dude. Joke.

[Captain_Bleach]

I know that you were joking.

Oh, and if anybody can give me their opinions on any of these alternate rules settings and if they are what I am looking for, please answer:

Iron Heroes (Malhavoc Press)
Arcana Unearthed (Malhavoc Press)
True Sorcery (Green Ronin)
Would any of them help balance noncasters against full casters? Are any of their magic systems efficient?

[Nihlin]

1184280136[/unixtime]]
Iron Heroes (Malhavoc Press)

Good ideas, but it's not finished. Seriously, it's a beta. Mike Mearls and co. have figured out that some things need to scale better, and others need to scale more uniformly, but the system isn't there yet. Additionally, the counter system is potentially clunky (depending on your class), spellcasters don't work (they invariably explode), and you can't really use DnD monsters like you might think you can. I should note that I'm basing this off of reading it myself and listening to play reports from friends, rather than personal play experience.

Arcana Unearthed (Malhavoc Press)

More of a setting than a system overhaul, but it's missing a lot of the most obviously problematic spells from DnD: there are set polymorph forms, the few true save-or-die spells generally require feats (though there are still save-or-sucks), and fewer "steal your shtick" spells that imitate the characteristic abilities of other classes. Also, all full spellcasters are 1/2 BAB, and none of them get any really meaningful class features other than spellcasting. However, the martial classes are still not competitive in terms of tactical options and such. I've played it and enjoy it more than standard DnD, and it's easy to sell to a DnD group.

[Brobdingnagian]

Races Of War


[counturl=76]Dungeonomicon[/counturl]

You probably get where I'm going with this. Voila, the martial classes can now keep up. Thank you Frank and K.

[Rob_Knotts]

1184273636[/unixtime]]1.) When I complete my current campaign, I want to find a rules system (Which does not have to be d20) and/or campaign setting that makes playing non and partial casters as fun as playing full casters.
2.) A design that allows the non and partial casters to not be bested in every way by full casters.
3.) An easily interpreted rules system that will not have minutes-long arguments over what happens whenever somebody does a complicated and/or cinematic action.

My first suggestion would be GURPS. All characters suffer fatigue during combat, don't have the books on hand but I believe it's a base 1 point per round (most characters can stand at least 10 points), and casting spells also incurs fatigue. The fatigue cost for spells operates very much on the TANSTAAFL principle: 1d6 of damage is going to cost 1 fatigue, 9d6 is going to cost 9 fatigue (not to mention require a higher skill level and prerequisite spells). Wearing armour and carrying heavy weapons can fatigue a fighter faster, but a powerful spellcaster can run the risk of knocking himself out in the first round.

On the other hand, and I can't believe I'm saying it, you might try setting up a different kind of D&D game. Some possiblities:

Try limiting the game to only the three core books, no supplements.

Put a 1 month moritoriam on erratta, or just ban outright any errata published after the campaign begins.

Here's the hard part: eliminate the Wizard, Sorceror, and (possibly) the Cleric (I won't touch Druids with a ten-foot pole). Keep classes like the Bard and the Paladin, but leave full-time spellcasting to non-adventuring NPC classes. Don't hesitate to make plenty of scrolls, potions, or magic items available to characters if they really think they'll need it for an adventure, just make it clear that you can't be both an adventurer and a full-time spellcaster.

Spellcasters can't overshadow other adventurers if spellcasters are never adventurers.

Or better yet, give them a copy of Hero 5e Revised and Fantasy Hero, and watch as they lose thier will to live.

[Captain_Bleach]

Here's the hard part: eliminate the Wizard, Sorceror, and (possibly) the Cleric (I won't touch Druids with a ten-foot pool). Keep classes like the Bard and the Paladin, but leave full-time spellcasting to non-adventuring NPC classes. Don't hesitate to make plenty of scrolls, potions, or magic items available to characters if they really think they'll need it for an adventure, just make it clear that you can't be both an adventurer and a full-time spellcaster.

Spellcasters can't overshadow other adventurers if spellcasters are never adventurers.

Loremaster will HATE this. I don't know how appealing he finds the Bard class.
I don't blame him, though. With a spell caster, you can out-damage others, take the rogue's place, and more. When one holds true power in their hands, one will not willingly part with it under most circumstances.

[Captain_Bleach]

1184275200[/unixtime]]You don't ask for much, do you? Welcome and let's give it a shot.

There are several systems that meet your parameters but obviously clash with your hidden assumptions. You want a D&Dish campaign where there are fighters and wizards and monsters around. That is workable but generally requires special measures to be taken.

1) Wushu. I am trying hard to use this for a Hong Kong Wuxia film style campaign but alas my players hate the idea. It is a system that will not solve any of your problems but it will make oneupmanship irrelevant.

Like the way that it looks. I will consider it. I looked at the Wushu Open rules when my computer problem got cleared up.