Shadowrun Min Max

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User3
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Shadowrun Min Max

Post by User3 »

Anyone got any tips on making a powerful mage in this game? Preference given to cleric archer or utility mages.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Username17 »

Start by learning really a lot of buff spells, and getting a fair amount of starting cred. Get a crap tonne of spell locks/spell sustaining foci (depending upon edition).

You want to key up all the stat buffs, but most importantly you want to start with all physical attributes of 1 and run around with a locked Shapechange into a Great Ape. I suggest being an Orangutan Librarian for theme. This replaces all your physical stats with improved Gorilla stats and you still have thumbs.

Turn on permanent invis, permanent astral static, and a permanent mana barrier. Fight with weapons, not spells.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Spell locks are the key. Amp your reflexes, then kick ass on stuff w/ weapons, the damaging spells aren't necessarily that kewl, and suck up a lot of resources you could blow on other stuff. Depending on the campaign, make sure you have lots of ways to find stuff out.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Lago_AM3P »

So I take it that you really can't make cleric-archer style characters on this game?

I'm both relieved and perturbed.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Username17 »

That is completely incorrect. You can totally make Cleric Archers. The problem is that every spell sustained gives you TN penalties. And while there are some incredibly broken abilities that allow you to sustain a small number of spells with no penalties (Elementals, Improved Concentration, etc.), the basic rules are that if you have even one spell going you are basically out of combat as far as it matters.

And that means that normally you have the choice between having your spells up and being a current active participant in combat. This eliminates the Cleric Archer, but is virtually meaningless to the battlefield control mage or the stealth-caster or the blaster caster (who sucks, as in all games) or the support caster.

But wait! There's still hope. It's called the "Spell Lock". Or it's called the "Spell Sustaining Focus", depending upon which edition you are using. It sustains a single spell at no concentration cost. Indefinately. And there is no limit to how many you can have.

The drawbacks are that you are visible astrally. And your SLs/SSFs can be attacked astrally. If someone hits them with a spell, there is a force comparison between the spell (which is force 6) and the effective force of the locked spell (which is 1), and if the spell wins (which it does) your item and spell (and the karma it cost) is permanently destroyed and the spell grounds out into the physical world and immediate slugs you right in the nuts at full value.

That sounds bad. It is bad. But you can protect yourself. You can layer mana barriers and astral static on that, and then people can basically go fvck themselves when it comes to trying t break through to anything you are wearing.

The drawbacks to that are that it also keeps all your magic in. But since you were planning on having all your spells buff yourself, who cares?

----

It's not a Cleric Archer in the sense of "I get to be a Street Samurai whenever I want, and be better at it." But it is more powerful than anything that a real street samurai would be able to come up with on less than 8 million dollars. And if you are willing to go ape nuts - you can basically have all the druid-fu and still use an assault rifle. It's non-refundable, unlike Druidism or Cleric Archerism - but it is over-the-top nuts.

Our game banned Spell Locks a long time ago.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Well, I caved and got a copy of 4th Ed. I'm slowly starting to learn the system, but let's cut to the chase.

Can anyone recommend me a non-troll melee fighting build that abuses adept/mystic adept/magician/technomancer abilities while still keeping good general utility? I'm not so sure about spell-sustaining foci (the DM will allow them), but then, it appears that a mystic adept wouldn't even need a lot of them.

A character that can punch through blocks of concrete and thin but meaningful layers of metal would be highly desired.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Username17 »

People are considering giving me actual money to min/max 4th edition, so I feel I'm modestly qualified to weigh in on this sort of thing:

Melee combat is all about your Agility to a large extent. Every 2 points of Strength gives you 1 DV on your melee weapons (other than monowhips and the like). But every hit you get on your attack roll also adds 1 to your DV (and you average 1 of those per 3 Agility). Considering that attack roll hits help you hit at all, that's a big deal.

An "Adept" can have about 2 Essence worth of upgrades and still be pretty effective as an Adept. That's enough for you to spend yourself out on starting money. Synaptic Booster 2 + Sleep Regulator + Synthacardium 3 + Cybereyes + Datajack gives you some nice wireless options and a solid dodging base (you can roll upwards of 14 dice on a full defense), and leaves you enough cash to get some basic toys and a weapon or two (most importantly, it gives you nothing that will show up on a MAD scanner that isn't completely legal and civilian looking). Heck, you could even have a Force 2 Weapon Focus, and therefore you probably want to.

A good base for a weapon focus is a monowhip or a stun baton, but if you must go for an axe.

Adept Powers are a little trickier. You'll want to get powers that are not replicable with cyber - and that means that you want Skill Bonuses. Oh my goodness yes. Social or Technical bonuses are good, but you might want to blow a point on Improved Kung Fu.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

FrankTrollman, I noticed that you had the essence running rather low.

If you were in a game where the characters already had a lot of sessions under their belt (say, had 50-100 karma/lots o' cash to spend on assorted crap), would that change things differently?

My math is poor, but it would seem like in the very long run, an adept that keeps his Essence (and thus magic) at 5 or 6 and then buys initiate levels would end up with the better deal. Since in the long run you can essentially you can set fire to 5 points of essence for cyberware (at the very beginning) but if you stick it out, you can have 10-12 points of magic to play with.

Also: spell sustaining foci. Yea or nay? I imagine you could do pretty cool stuff with them, like fly permanently or some shiz. Which is awesome for melee combatants.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Username17 »

The Essence Cost on that character is only 1.6 - remember that the Essence Cost of the cyberware is halved because it is less than the Essence Cost of the Bioware. So the character has an Essence of 4.4 (-2 Magic, -1 Die from Magic Healing).

But in any case, an Adept is better off with a lower starting Magic and buying it up later because attributes are very cheap in terms of Karma. There's actually little reason to be a Mystic Adept when it comes down to it, they just end up spread too thin and can't do anything well. They have to purchase Astral Perception if they want to be able to defend their equipment.

It costs 1 Magic to get a Synaptic Booster II, it costs 3 Magic to replicate that with Adept Powers. It doesn't cost money or Essence, but for the Min/Maxer you are willing to pay out of three pockets to be the best you can be.

---

Spell Sustaining Foci are very powerful, especially when you get them at high Force. If you have a decent starting body, you can lock a transformation into an Orangutan and run around with ginormous physical attributes. Also you can layer on a good Combat Sense and Armor onto yourself and do a pretty good impression of bullet immunity. Unfortunately, an active focus is astrally active and that means that you really need a block of spirit cover and the ability to go astral yourself if you want to protect your investment - and that means that it's not really a tactic that Mystic Adepts are much good with.

Sustaining Foci are also capped at Force 3 for starting characters, which is 1 too low to effectively lock on an Improved Invis good enough to hide you from Drones. But if you're allowed to exceed that, go to town! A Force 4 Sustaining Focus can allow you to spoof electronic surveilance and perform tasks without penalty - that's crazy good.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Unfortunately, an active focus is astrally active and that means that you really need a block of spirit cover and the ability to go astral yourself if you want to protect your investment - and that means that it's not really a tactic that Mystic Adepts are much good with.


Since you probably are going to need a full-time magician anyway (as you need astral projection hard), couldn't you find out whether another teammate is planning to do this anyway and find out if she's willing to outsource the job of protecting your shiz?
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Username17 »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1138020092[/unixtime]]
Since you probably are going to need a full-time magician anyway (as you need astral projection hard), couldn't you find out whether another teammate is planning to do this anyway and find out if she's willing to outsource the job of protecting your shiz?


In theory yes. In practice, Shadowrun characters are often distant from each other so they should be capable of standing on their own in addition to offering a unique skill to the team.

If you rely upon things which exist in the Astral, you should be able to protect them. If you rely upon things with an active matrix connection, you should have ECCM and/or hacking to back that up. If you don't have the skillz to back up those items, your character should be able to get by turning those items off. And while that's fine for folks who need to cut off the wireless connection on their display link or fight with an inactive weapon focus, turning back from animal form in a run is embarassing.

---

Also remember that SR4 is a game that encourages "fitting in" much more than previous editions did. As such, it is worth considering grabbing the low-impact cyber package above and not having any magical powers at all. With a Monowhip that can be unspooled from a skinlink connection to your datajack and a holdout pistol you can pass most security and still lay down sufficient beat downs on the other side.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Sustaining Foci are also capped at Force 3 for starting characters, which is 1 too low to effectively lock on an Improved Invis good enough to hide you from Drones. But if you're allowed to exceed that, go to town! A Force 4 Sustaining Focus can allow you to spoof electronic surveilance and perform tasks without penalty - that's crazy good.


You can have sustaining foci right out of the gate? That's really weird; I thought SR4 rules allowed you to buy the foci right up front but you had to wait until at least 1 or 2 adventures before you can bond it.

Otherwise, you're right; a straight-up magician is crazy powerful. It's pathetically easy to meet a threshold of 4 for improved reflexes; heck, you could use the rule of four and get the threshold with a spellcasting skill of 7 (which you want anyway) and a magic stat of 6 and then just get a force 3 sustaining focus. Almost out of the gate. And there's still expansion options for your character.

Also, combat mind control seems crazy powerful. Like, really, really crazy powerful. You can do it through clairvoyance and they oppose you with one stat. Spellcasting AFAIK eventually gets way bigger than any stat in the game.

Then you do things like have half of the opposition shoot up the other half. That's hilarious.

I also feel stupid for bringing this up, but where in the SR4 rules does it allow other characters to attack your foci astrally? I've been looking high and low but I can't find anything.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Also, this is just an idea...

There's a spell, Magic Fingers, which lets you replace your Agility and Strength Ratings with the hits you get on your Spellcasting. That's already a nice bit of stat replacement, but the idea is...

Even though unarmed combat is normally strictly inferior to real weapons, you could probably add your unarmed attack boxes to the 'fighting' uses of magic fingers. As that's an allowed task.

Since you're melee fighting at a distance, you basically get a huge-ass reach (compensating for the -2 attack easily), can fight from behing cover or while running away from foes, can pummel your enemies without being seen, and best of all can attack through clairvoyance, allowing you to punch out people through thick fortifications.

That's some major JoJo's Bizarre Adventure shiz there. What do you think?

Also, for sustaining foci on spells that have a variable strength (depending on your luck), how does that work?
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Sorry if I seem to be bouncing all over the place. I saw the passage for buying foci at character creation.

And I also forgot to mention... even though you think Edge is a useless stat, it appears per the description of Force that you can use Edge to tear asunder the rules for sustaining foci.

Thus, if you blow away your Edge ahead of time, you very reliably end up with one or even two extra hits. This will allow you go get the best of improved invisibility and improved reflexes. Right out of the gate.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Username17 »

And I also forgot to mention... even though you think Edge is a useless stat, it appears per the description of Force that you can use Edge to tear asunder the rules for sustaining foci.


Yes it can. And to go on record: I don't think Edge is a useless stat, I think it is a dump stat. Everyone can use Edge, and to considerable effect. It's just that everyone can also use actual dice usable in every test somewhat more. Buy Edge from 1 to 3 just isn't that expensive, and for most people that's going to be plenty. A min/maxxer might find themselves jacking up Edge simply because they've run out of ways to make themselves more badass at their tactic of choice, but everyone else is going to want an extra point of Intuition or Charisma or something more.

There's a spell, Magic Fingers, which lets you replace your Agility and Strength Ratings with the hits you get on your Spellcasting. That's already a nice bit of stat replacement, but the idea is...


I'm pretty underwhelmed by that possibility. Anything you can do with that could be done better by casting Improved Agility on yourself.

Also, combat mind control seems crazy powerful.


It is. Like Turn to Goo it is an instant death effect in every way that matters. If you get one net hit on them, they are out of the fight (since they don't get another will check for several combat rounds). But the drain is substantial and it ties up 2 of your dice every time you pull this trick in combat.

The fact is that instant death effects just aren't that impressive in a game that includes grenades and stunbolt, both of which can drop opponents without worrying yourself over much with drain. There are a number of other advantages to those spells, but I rarely use either in a large scale combat.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

I'm pretty underwhelmed by that possibility. Anything you can do with that could be done better by casting Improved Agility on yourself.


How do you figure?

A min/maxxer might find themselves jacking up Edge simply because they've run out of ways to make themselves more badass at their tactic of choice, but everyone else is going to want an extra point of Intuition or Charisma or something more.


AFAIK, Edge replenishes much faster in Shadowrun than in any other game I know which allows variable 'hand of god' effects; like, the game says that at a minimum Edge should be replenished every campaign adventure and sometimes as often as EVERY GAME DAY.

It is. Like Turn to Goo it is an instant death effect in every way that matters. If you get one net hit on them, they are out of the fight (since they don't get another will check for several combat rounds). But the drain is substantial and it ties up 2 of your dice every time you pull this trick in combat.


Well, unlike grenades and stunbolt, couldn't you use Combat Mind Control to have the opposition do defections that are way more damaging than killing?

Like cancelling orders for reinforcements, randomly screaming out passwords and codes and names of important people later on in the 'dungeon', or just stealing people for your side for the survivors to be in an even worse spot?
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Username17 »

How do you figure?


The maximum number of hits a spell can achieve normally is the Force of the spell. A Magic Fingers, thus, can have an agility of Force, assuming that you can make that many hits or more.

Meanwhile, an Increase Agility spell increases your Agility by the number of hits, which could also be Force.

So your attack roll is either Net Hits, or Net Hits + X, where X is a positive integer that is your original starting Agility. It's a slam dunk.

Magic Fingers is a fine spell and all, but not because you use it to go all Star Platinum on people. Honestly, I prefered the Black Dog version anyway.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Crissa »

Yeah, but Star Platinum doesn't have to worry as much about those opposing weapons as Black Dog does.

The only time in SR3 that my mage ever mattered was when I blocked a badguy's getaway with a spirit barrier.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Magic Fingers is a fine spell and all, but not because you use it to go all Star Platinum on people. Honestly, I prefered the Black Dog version anyway.


I don't know what the Black Dog version is.

Still, though, shouldn't Magic Fingers automatically give you like tons of reach to make up for your lost agility dice?

Also, as mentioned, you could use Magic Fingers to attack a foe through thick-ass walls not even rockets can penetrate (with the right spells), pull the pins off of foes' grenades, or just general tomfoolery like that?
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Username17 »

Black Dog is a very talented Japanese artist who makes doujin with the names of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure characters or rock bands. The doujin themselves are about neither Jojo's Bizarre Adventure nor rock bands. Quite often they are about Sailor Moon characters.

Regardless, you can't actually use Clairvoyance to target spells, you do know that right? On account of it saying
SR4, p. 188 wrote:Magicians cannot use clairvoyance to target others with spells.


On the Reach Issue, Magic Fingers does not have "reach", it has a mobile point of origin. Using Magic Fingers is more equivalent to running really fast than it is to having reach. You can, if you want, "throw" weapons and use ranged combat rules. This is quite handy, especially as you can immediately grab said weapon and throw it at someone else because the fingers can be anywhere.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Crissa »

Still, Frank, this puts your Magic Fingers user squarely behind a nice piece of transparent aluminum and not standing right next to the guy they are bashing.

Tho I don't know how the rules for armored implacements vs personal armor stack up in this version, so I'm talking out of my admittedly large rump.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Regardless, you can't actually use Clairvoyance to target spells, you do know that right?


But the description of Magic Fingers allows you to use it through Clairvoyance; the spell isn't targetted so much as you're manipulating telekinetic force that already exists.

On the Reach Issue, Magic Fingers does not have "reach", it has a mobile point of origin.


I'm not actually sure of the difference between being able to hurt foes a distance away from the majority of your mass because you're Luffy and can stretch your limbs super-far or you're Nico Robin and can make your limbs sprout wherever you want.

It does neatly solve the issue of what kind of modifiers you apply but I sort of want a more definitive explanation than that.

...

Regardless, my GM flat-out said no to the stat replacement idea with a monkey. Just won't allow it, straight up. So I'm actually having a bit of trouble re-arranging stats for a mage character that wants to kick ass in combat without a monowhip (or other out-and-out illegal equipment). Preferance given to kung-fu, even though I know straight up that it is an inferior combat mode. Any suggestions?
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Also, I'm looking through the Shadowrun books and especially the subject on spirits...

Is there any particular reason why you wouldn't want to summon and bind a bunch of spirits of man and have their service be to sustain a spell of yours with their Innate Power? There has to be some sort of drawback other than tying up a versatile spirit of yours.

Also, is it just me, or do skills suck? I mean, really suck. They suck to a point where D&D would be embarrassed to be associated with them. There are some very notable exceptions for Riggers/Technos/Mages, but on the whole, they seem unnecessarily fragmented for a minor benefit.

Maybe I'm missing something? Which skills are worth it?
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Username17 »

Skills do not suck, skills are completely game defining and tremendously important. They are overpriced, which is not the same thing. Personally, I play with a house rule that skills cost half list price across the board. That puts them back on track.

But even without, the fact that your Dice Pool is Attribute + Skill and attribute caps are very real and achievable means that you can't ever be particularly good if you don't jack up your skills. It's just that jacking up your skills is overcosted for what you get.

Then there's the skills that are your total dice pool when they are used. Gymnastics is the only thing you add when you go full defense (because you aren't the kind of moron who buys Dodge). Counterspelling is the only thing you add to your friends' spell resistance. Hacking is the only thing you add to Program Ratings. These skills are, obviously enough, completely central to the characters who use them.

Of course, there are skills that are pure unadulterated ass. Getting Banishing or Ritual Spellcasting is a waste of your damn time.

Lago wrote:Is there any particular reason why you wouldn't want to summon and bind a bunch of spirits of man and have their service be to sustain a spell of yours with their Innate Power?


Yes. Lots. One person said "Anyone who binds a spirit deserves to be slapped. Hard." And I can't really find fault with that assessment. Spirits cost double drain when you try to bind them, which means that the maximum spirit you can safely conjure with summoning is almost double what you could safely bind. And when you summon a spirit, you can send it on a remote service and get a new spirit while the first one is performing that task.

Every fvcking morning you can get up and summon a few spirits to go on the remote service of casting a spell on you and sustaining it while they wander off to the Mojave and sight see until sunset. It only takes a couple of sconds, you might as well. You can also repeat this for the Guard and Movement powers, and you should.

Remote Services are really broken, and the drain and cost on Binding are overly large. So much so that binding is really marginalized. If you don't take Binding at all, and just start the game with a Summoning of 6 (or 7), I can't fault you.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Every fvcking morning you can get up and summon a few spirits to go on the remote service of casting a spell on you and sustaining it while they wander off to the Mojave and sight see until sunset. It only takes a couple of sconds, you might as well. You can also repeat this for the Guard and Movement powers, and you should.

Remote Services are really broken, and the drain and cost on Binding are overly large. So much so that binding is really marginalized. If you don't take Binding at all, and just start the game with a Summoning of 6 (or 7), I can't fault you.


That's good. You're amazing, Frank.

What changes with this setup if you're willing to burn and refresh (lots of) Edge between adventures to perma-sustain with bonded spirits on the condition that your GM won't allow this remote service tomfoolery?
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