Shadowrun Min Max

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Then there's the skills that are your total dice pool when they are used. Gymnastics is the only thing you add when you go full defense (because you aren't the kind of moron who buys Dodge). Counterspelling is the only thing you add to your friends' spell resistance. Hacking is the only thing you add to Program Ratings. These skills are, obviously enough, completely central to the characters who use them.


Frank, in your opinion, which skills (down to the crummy knowledge skills) are worth buying both generically and by character archetype?


Of course, there are skills that are pure unadulterated ass. Getting Banishing or Ritual Spellcasting is a waste of your damn time.


One of my buds swears by Ritual Spellcasting but it seems to me that anyone worthy of being targetted by a remote-kill would have a mana barrier that you'd have to blow through and it takes too long to mount a second attack without suffering heavy retribution.

Of course, what if you had two separate Ritual Spellcastings going at once?
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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Lago wrote:What changes with this setup if you're willing to burn and refresh (lots of) Edge between adventures to perma-sustain with bonded spirits on the condition that your GM won't allow this remote service tomfoolery?


Relatively little actually. A Force 4 Spirit of Man has access to Guard and one power (Innate Spell: Improved Reflexes, thank you much). You can just retry conjuring it every morning until you get a few services, and then you can have it Guard you (and itself, and two party members), and then cast Improved Reflexes on you. Then it suffers big penalties (drain and sustaining a spell), but you don't care, because it doesn't do anything else. If you need an ass-kicker spirit, you dismiss that one and get a Force 7 Fire Spirit and go a whuppin and a whompin on everybody that way.

Remember that any Spirit you Bind is first going to be Summoned. So unless you re-bind (more on that in a moment), there's no benefit in having a die in Binding when you could have a die in Summoning instead. Each net hit on either test gives you a service, so a die of Summoning is just as good as a die of Binding.

---

On Rebinding: The big drawback to binding, in addition to the whole thing where there is a substantial chance that you just fvcking explode because Conjuring Drain is so incredibly random, is that if you pass out from drain your spirit becomes uncontrolled and hostile right next to you and does knee drops on your face until you die. But if you are bindign a spirit that is already bound, you can get extra services and you don't run that risk (also you can be protected by Guard so it is impossible for you to glitch on this test, as you can have a summoned spirit in addition to the spirit you are binding). The drawback is that it costs extra yens every time and you don't get an initial summoning test worth of services this time around.

Nevertheless, it is clear that if you want to play around with titanic bound spirits on a regular basis, that you should just have one or two of them and then rebind over and over again (periodically going into the fvcking hospital because the drain will be so damn high). But there's really not a lot of reason to bother right now, Street Magic isn't out, so there aren't any "Great Form" tricks you can do with Bound Spirits that you can't essentially do just as well with Unbound Spirits. Aid Sorcery is impressive, but it's not worth the cost.

---

One of my buds swears by Ritual Spellcasting but it seems to me that anyone worthy of being targetted by a remote-kill would have a mana barrier that you'd have to blow through and it takes too long to mount a second attack without suffering heavy retribution.


Ritual Spellcasting is completely useless for attacking distant foes. You need to be able to get a spotter on the scene (which can be a bound spirit). If you can get one of your spirits to hover next to some asshole in astral space, you can send an astral gank pack to kill their ass. No exceptions.

What Ritual Spellcasting is good for is casting really huge spells on willing targets. Each character can ad to the success test, so with four characters churning out dice you can actually get the 12 hits required to warrant casting a spell at Force 12. That's one hell of a Combat Senses, I tell you. The problem of course, is that you don't really give a damn.

No character in a Shadowrunner team is going to get their hands on 4 characters who all have at least a 4 in Ritual Spellcasting and are all the same tradition, and all know a Buff spell that benefits from getting double digits from the success test. It just isn't ever going to happen. Ever.

Ritual Spellcasting is there to allow NPCs to have spell effects that would otherwise be impossible without the intervention of NPC magicians who could personally curbstomp the entire team simultaneously. It's not for PCs, and PCs shouldn't bother having it.

---
Lago wrote:Frank, in your opinion, which skills (down to the crummy knowledge skills) are worth buying both generically and by character archetype?


That's a long list. But here goes:

Gymnastics. It adds to your defense roll when you take the Full Defense Action. It is so good that Street Samurai are well advised to invest in Synthacardiums just to increase this skill's dicepool.

First Aid. An untrained character rolls their Medkit's rating when treating injuries. If you have even a point in First Aid, you roll your Logic + Skill + Medkit Rating. This can even treat Stun, and can be used to lower Drain.

Exotic Ranged/Melee Weapon. Depending upon how your GM reads the skill (the skill description on page 113 is at odds with the description of its use in the Critters and Equipment Sections), this skill is either completely useless (because it requires that you select one fvcking weapon like a D&D EWP) or is wicked awesome (because it lets you use whatever crazy crap you happen to MacGuyver together). Although the Monowhip is so much the best weapon evar that EMW: Monowhip is worth taking even if your GM uses the nerftastic ruling.

Influence. That's right, the whole skill group. You don't give a rat's about Leadership most of the time, but you actually need to not be taking defaulting penalties on Ettiquette, Negotiate, and Con. You really need to not be taking defaulting penalties on those skills.

Perception. I don't care who you are or what you do, you need this skill. This is a game about detectives, spies, and guerilla warriors, the "notice things" skill is made out of pure gold. Or joy. Whichever one is better.

Infiltration. It's the skill where you don't get seen. See Perception.

Various Archetypes consider a number of other skills. I wouldn't make a magician without Summoning, Counterspelling, and Spellcasting. I wouldn't make a Rigger without Electronic Warfare, Gunnery, and Pilot: GroundVehicle. A Street Sam should have at least two weapon skills, one of which should be Longarms.

Depending upon the game you will either want Shadowing and Palming or not. If you do, you should take the whole Stealth group.

Someone in your group should have Medicine. If it isn't your Hacker it should be your Hermetic Mage. Someone should have demolitions, same thing.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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Wow. I've only had this book for 10 days and it appears that my tjeese is small and weak.

So. Might as well cut to the big finish. How would you go about making a buffing hermetic mage on standard 400 point buy whose DM said 'hell no' ahead of time to remote service tjeese and shapechanging tjeese? I don't need (or want) exact stat numbers, as 'roleplaying' concerns will force me to make a subobtimal character; for example, there's no way I will accept a 1 in Charisma even if I have no social skills or spirits and I'll probably specialize in kung-fu even though unarmed combat that doesn't set off sensors generally suxxorz. I'm just looking for a general idea on how to budget.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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Lago wrote:Wow. I've only had this book for 10 days and it appears that my tjeese is small and weak.


While I regularly get into arguments with Rob Boyle and Peter Taylor, and can honestly say that I have the strongest Cheese Fu for SR4 of anyone on the planet. Including all the people in the BRD.

Lago wrote:How would you go about making a buffing hermetic mage on standard 400 point buy whose DM said 'hell no' ahead of time to remote service tjeese and shapechanging tjeese?


It really sounds like you want to play a possession tradition more than anything. Just slap the spirit directly into your body, hulk out, and be done with it. Unfortunately for this plan, certain people in the dev team are bad at math and hate possession with a fiery passion; and in any case certain parts of Street Magic are apparently taking a sweet ass time to complete, so it is trivial to predict that it's a product that is months away.

But what you're looking for is just stuff from the basic book. The practical advantage of Kung Fu (if you can call it that) is that you get substantial amounts of subtlety. SR4 really emphasizes "hiding in plain sight" as a primary way of life for characters. Being legal, even uninteresting looking is a really big deal. The fuzz is a little more organized than it has been portrayed in previous editions, and running around with an assault cannon is going to get you killed. Doing big splashy magic effects is going to get your astral ass tracked if the authorities are alerted within a few hours, etc.

Kung Fu in 2070, as now, doesn't require that you have anything with you. Being the kind of guy who can kill a man with his bare hands has substantially important advantages in a world where magic and science are so watched.

That being said, there's a lot to be said for just being a Street Sam who has no visible byberware that is anything but extremely legal and common. That means getting your ass kicking from Synaptic Boosters, Synthacardium, and Muscle Augmentation. Possibly even starting life as an Ork (who in SR4 are the master race).

But what you don't want to do is leave long lasting Astral Signatures around, so if you go mage, be prepared to cast spells at a low Force. That means using spells that are good at a low Force (usually you are pretty safe at around Force 3) - Improved Invisibility, Levitate, Combat Sense, Detect Life.

Being Metahuman makes you genetically superior, and buying attributes is cheaper than buying skills (but is even more cheaper than buying skills once play has begun, so the longer you intend to play the character, the more you should jack skillz up). Even a Hermetic Mage is basically better as an Ork than she is as a human, especially if she intends to karate chop people in the nuts. Stun batons are legal to carry, and horrendously effective, so consider them in lieu of kung fu kicks.

If you go unarmed combat, take the "Martial Arts" specialization as soon as play begins (it's +2 dice all the time, but it's the same cost in Karma as it is in BP, so don't flush BP in starting with it).

You can wear a chameleon suit over an armored jacket. If you have a body of 4+ you should do this thing.

In general you should be a dwarf and use strength as a dump stat, but being melee combat oriented makes both of those suggestions less attractive. You'll want a lot of Running, as it will let you go crazy fast.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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Is it just me, or does Pain Editor seem like the most broken piece of bioware for a Mage that ever existed?
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Regarding Orangutan-fu, is there any spell or effect you could get (in this or previous editions) that would both make you look like a regular human being and give you the ability to speak intelligibly?

Also, I've never played SR3. Tell me more about possession and whether it was awesome or not.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1139099160[/unixtime]]Is it just me, or does Pain Editor seem like the most broken piece of bioware for a Mage that ever existed?


Well, it's a requirement for anyone who wants to be good at Binding, which is actually a meaningful concern if your GM is wisely cutting back on the Remote Service Rush.

Regarding Orangutan-fu, is there any spell or effect you could get (in this or previous editions) that would both make you look like a regular human being and give you the ability to speak intelligibly?


Physical Mask. You may need Entertainment as well, depending upon how your GM rules the audial component of Physical Mask.


Also, I've never played SR3. Tell me more about possession and whether it was awesome or not.


OK, in previous editions it was a really weird side-thing where instead of having a spirit perform a set of tasks out on its own, it stapled itself to your body for a certain amount of time and you gained all the spirit's powers for a number of hours and could do whatever you wanted with them during the period (so long as you paid lip service to the spirit's needs during that period, otherwise they'd eventually stop working for you). You could also put the spirits into specially prepared vessels (bodies or animals or whatever) and have the spirit live a dual-natured life for weeks at a time doing your bidding during the period of servitude. Verdict: Awesome.

Here's the deal for SR4: It's just like that, except that some of the authors have a bug up their ass about how a possessing spirit should be in control of your ass while riding you, and there should be some sort of test to get the spirit into your body (or any other vessel) even though regular spirits still don't have to make die rolls to materialize. Verdict: Weak Sauce.

Basically Possession is going to be just like regular materialization spirits except that asking them to perform physical services will periodically fail and they won't be able to materialize everywhere. But you will get to add your strength to the force of your spirit (which isn't actually all that great, but does meet the requisite "hulking out" demand).

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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Here's the deal for SR4: It's just like that, except that some of the authors have a bug up their ass about how a possessing spirit should be in control of your ass while riding you, and there should be some sort of test to get the spirit into your body (or any other vessel) even though regular spirits still don't have to make die rolls to materialize. Verdict: Weak Sauce.


Hold on just a damn second here. I'll still be able to beat down the spirit's whiny will Jericho-style, right?

I can somehow find the dice. We always do. But a spirit of man deciding that he'd much rather go to an Earth Day cleanup than assist me beat down the latest shipment of ghouls IN THE MIDDLE OF COMBAT is no damn good.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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Is it just me, or does specializing in martial arts is even more inferior than other melee weapons, including baseball bats and golf clubs?

The specialization category seems to imply that there are two distinct bonuses you can add from unarmed combat specialization: that to parrying and the other to a cynical attack bonus.

AFAIK, if you specialize in swordery, you get both bonuses.

Am I missing something here?
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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You can specialize in defense or grappling or whatever, but you can also specialize in a martial art - which basically just means that you get +2 dice all the time (as long as you are officially using Penjak Silat or whatever for all your parrying and attacking).

Of course, a golf club has reach (+1 dice pool modifier) and does more damage. So being +2 dice all the time isn't actually a big deal.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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I mean, people on the DumpShock forums are seriously arguing that specializing in a 'martial art' (and thus getting a universal +2 die) is illegal and if it is it's twinky. Even though every other weapon in the section does not have this rules half-split.

I wonder why they gave out an option that's blatantly inferior to things in the same sentence. This sort of took me by surprise.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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A lot of people don't seem to undestand that unarmed combat is kind of shitty. They look at Martial Arts as being twinkish because their heart rebels at the concept of a specialization adding to every test you ever make with a skill (which is reasonable enough in abstract). The fact that Unarmed Combat can only be justified in that context is beside the point.

Also, a lot of people on Dumpshock are prone to flipping out over potential abuse and claiming that the sky is falling on very little provocation. I'm not sure why that is.

I mean, there's a guy who seriously refuses to play or read SR4 because he's convinced that under SR4 rules a world-class sniper character can take a sniper rifle and shoot enemies who have given away their position with their muzzle flash (which is true) and that this is totally unrealistic and without historical precedent (which is false).

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1139207613[/unixtime]]I mean, there's a guy who seriously refuses to play or read SR4 because he's convinced that under SR4 rules a world-class sniper character can take a sniper rifle and shoot enemies who have given away their position with their muzzle flash (which is true) and that this is totally unrealistic and without historical precedent (which is false).

Without...

...Did anyone refer to him the battle of...

Oh, nevermind.

It's not like it's easy, or anything.

Still, I like the idea of the spirit being in charge in possession; I always thought the concept was that you had to make a deal where you did x and the spirit would do y, and that the spirit couldn't have same access - because you're giving it basically same access to your body... Still, I haven't read the rules, and just like the /concept/. The fact that you couldn't give your body over before weemed weak at best, yet could have all their powers...

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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There's lots of cool possession stories based on the spirit being in control. Those stories, are awesome. Similarly, there are lots of cool stories about spirits taking control over others against their will. Those stories are awesome as well.

But Shadowrun already has spirits that function pretty much like a magician's drones. Spirits that you have to actually bargain with are called "free spirits" and that's not who you conjure when you snap your fingers in the morning and get a fire elemental to protect your chemistry lab from accidental explosions.

And Shadowrun already has a form/substance dualism in Astral/Physical existence built right in. So offensive possession is inherently impossible. There's a reason that no serious philosophers talk about dualism without sarcasm these days - it's a logcially unworkable system.

So the possession rules that people are trying to get to happen are, by their nature, a slap in the fvcking face. It's a very frustrating conversation to be involved in.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Okay. I give up.

Frank, give me the lowdown on the cheesiest non-Organgutan mage-fu you can come up with. Like, down to each fvcking point.

I'll give you a dollar if you do.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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I'm unsure of what exactly constitutes a service.

If I summon and bind a Force 6 Spirit of Man and have it Innate a Combat Sense and an Armor on me while backing that ass up with some Concealment, how long can I have this going on?

Also, I'm looking for a reliable way to hide the fact that I'm using foci and outstanding spells. And stats for monkeys.

And are bow and arrows really as kick-ass as they seem? As stun damage rocks your face in this game, you can easily (and silently) take down even powerful mooks with a decent strength and arrows with an injection vector.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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For the last 16 years, a service has been defined thusly:

Anything you tell your spirit to do is a service.

So "Go get me a doughnut" is a service. "Move all the books in the house into my van." is a service. "Beat the crap out of these Yakuza enforcers" is a service. "Maintain Movement on me until sunset" is a service. And so on.

Essentially a spirit can maintain a spirit power on however many characters it can sustain the power on for as long as you want it to (or until the spirit vanishes or is disrupted) as a single service. Or it can participate in a combat (potentially, if transiently, using lots of different powers) as a single service. Or it can perform any physical action no matter how simple or complex (up to the limits of its understanding and capabilities - they don't "get" technology by and large).

There is talk about adjusting that last provision such that a spirit can perform "minor" physical actions without using up services, thus allowing you to get your spirit to do pretty much anything non-power related with sufficient micro-management. I don't approve.

---

If I summon and bind a Force 6 Spirit of Man and have it Innate a Combat Sense and an Armor on me while backing that ass up with some Concealment, how long can I have this going on?


Theoretically, you could have that going indefinitely. There's a couple of problems however:

1. The spirit is at -4 dice pool on all actions because it is sustaining two spells.

2. The spirit is not resting and can't escape to the metaplanes as long as it is sustaining those spells, so it can't recover from the drain that got inflicted when it cast those spells.

3. You are very difficult to notice at all, but you are also covered in glowing protective runes, which makes it difficult to have a normal life.

4. You can no longer pass through a ward of any size without triggering an alarm.

5. Passing through a ward or getting dispelled may end the spells anyway.

---

Also, I'm looking for a reliable way to hide the fact that I'm using foci and outstanding spells.


You'll have to wait until Street Magic comes out with Expanded Masking.


And are bow and arrows really as kick-ass as they seem?


Not really. You need a bow for your Strength, so if you are planning to jack your Strength up, you may need several bows. It's only Single Shot, so however much whupass you can lay down with a bow had beeter be double what you could lay down with a taser. Stun damage is really awesome, and Narcoject is simply unfair - but the Injection Arrow itself needs to inflict Physical Damage to apply it, so it mostly just stacks for inflicting penalties.

If you want to drop people silently, get a super squirt and shoot two loogies of Narcoject at people. That beats the hell out of a single arrow that does a crap tonne of physical damage and a crap tonne of stun damage - the arrow is actually less likely to drop an opponent in one action but more likely to kill an opponent outright if you take a second round of attacking the target.

Of course, the real beauty of a bow and arrow system is that a good Trollish Archer can pound out arrows that hit so hard that they are anti-vehicle weapons. We're talking like 15P and such. They can seriously one-shot Force 8 Spirits.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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2. The spirit is not resting and can't escape to the metaplanes as long as it is sustaining those spells, so it can't recover from the drain that got inflicted when it cast those spells.

3. You are very difficult to notice at all, but you are also covered in glowing protective runes, which makes it difficult to have a normal life.


Does first aid allow you to recover stun (drain) damage? If so, can you use it on manifesting spirits?

If not, could you order the spirit to overcast the spell into physical damage so you can use your health spell?

...

The second one, I'm thinking of taking care with mask. As I see it, there's almost no disadvantage to this spell except for the fact that it will set off magical sensors and it uses up concentration/foci.

I'm also wondering how patrolling spirits work at all. If they really go away after one combat (service), then you should send a wave of force 1 spirits to act as service-draining patsies while the real ass-kickers slip through after the patrolling spirits earn their freedom.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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Does first aid allow you to recover stun (drain) damage? If so, can you use it on manifesting spirits?


Yes. No, they have no anatomy, and First Aid doesn't work on them.

If not, could you order the spirit to overcast the spell into physical damage so you can use your health spell?


No. Spells are not supposed to be able to heal drain at all, though this is not well explained in the basic book.

As I see it, there's almost no disadvantage to this spell except for the fact that it will set off magical sensors and it uses up concentration/foci.


Uh... is that all? Gosh, go for it then.

I'm also wondering how patrolling spirits work at all.


Usually they work by being set on a service to patrol and telepathically tell their masters about anything they see. Then, if the magician feels the need to direct them to attack something, they do so.

People don't generally set spirits on "kill the fvck out of anything that walks in through that door" as that involves a lot of danger for the people actually operating the facility.

So a harrassment squad of Watchers might fool them once, but mostly it would just put the base on alert.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

Okay, here's the deal.

I'm playing in a rules-free online game where actions are resolved by on the spot character adjucation rather than numbers. It's multi-themed like Super Smash Bros.

I want to get a Shadowrun themed character, specifically a martial-artist mage type. Unfortunately, all I have access to is 4th Edition.

I was wondering what cool flavorish things in the forms of spells, items, character options, or whatnot mages had in previous editions.

The idea is coolness and uniqueness more than raw power. For example, while invisibility is generally 'better' than creating a cloud of darkness, I'd rather have the darkness.

Or to put it in more concrete terms: the feat in PHBII that allows you to create projectiles of ki would be preferrable to, say, Improved Trip. Even though that feat sucks, the theme is really cool. And all Improved Trip does is add a bonus to what regular humans can do anyway. Even though it wins the numbers game, I would choose the former for such a character.

Please help.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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Cool things to do with Magic:

[*] Sympathetic Magic: cast a spell into a lock of hair and have it go off on the target's head

[*] A more processed item requires a more powerful spell to affect at all. Clean your computer by casting a spell that destroys dirt and spider webs and has no effect on your computer at all.

[*] The Desire Reflection power makes you look like what they wantto see.

[*] Worker Spirits/Zombies are made by grabbing some body (or somebody) and slapping a spirit into them. They can perform technical tasks like carpentry, but also like computer programming.

[*] The Wall Running power lets you run around like you were in the Matrix all the time.

[*] The missile mastery power lets you take people out by throwing credit cars or hackey sacks.

[*] The Glee spell makes the target really happy about whatever happens to be going on right now.

[*] The Poltergeist spell telekinetically picks up all the objects in a big area and bashes them into each other.

[*] The Fashion spell transforms whatever you're wearing into something else. More successes makes your outfit look more awesome.

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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by User3 »

In the previous edition of Street Magic, what were some of the cool/powerful things for these sorts of characters? Like, weapon and metamagic and all that.

Also, Frank, could you share your insights some of the concerns a 4th ed buffing mage would have to work out to ensure that his ass-kicking is as stealthy and reliable as possible?

I also don't quite understand the movement split for Initiative Passes; it seems set up to screw melee people like crazy. I can't think of a way around this other than some tomfoolery with multiple Levitations going off.

Also, why is it so freaking painful to advance in this game? Is it a feature or were there problems with this in the previous editions?

While we're at it, is anyone else pissed off by the speshull treatment dragons get in this game? I know they're just NPC characters and shadowrunners aren't expected to save the world and durka durka durka dur. But it was damn annoying when D&D did this and it's doubly so in a game that gets a lot of its excitement from the fact that nearly anyone can kill anyone else.
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Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

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In the previous edition of Street Magic, what were some of the cool/powerful things for these sorts of characters? Like, weapon and metamagic and all that.


The Elephant in the room is Invoking, which makes a spirit Great Form. It followed ridiculously complicated game mechanics, where sometimes it cost more drain and sometimes it did not, but your Spirit was just a little bit more awesome in that it had extra reach (a big deal back then) and its spirit powers could be used in an area of effect or shared with friends. Fire Immunity for all my subjects!

Also, Frank, could you share your insights some of the concerns a 4th ed buffing mage would have to work out to ensure that his ass-kicking is as stealthy and reliable as possible?


In the 4th edition rules, the best you can do is jack up your initiate grade and invest in Flexible Signature. If your Grade is greater than or equal to the Force of the spells you cast, there's no astral trail o hose you. If the Force exceeds your Grade, there are a number of hours that an occult investigator can hose you. No power on Earth can keep an astral opponent from knowing that you have buffs running if they are looking at you while you have them on. So really it comes down to mundane stealth - keeping opaque physical objects between you and enemies.

Also remember that Influence is permanent and you can use it on Watchers. So the fact that they perceive your buffs is irrelevent if you remember to Jedi Mind Trick them. They only have a Willpower of 1.


I also don't quite understand the movement split for Initiative Passes; it seems set up to screw melee people like crazy.


It goes like this: You move 1/4 of your movement each IP, and you can delay your actions into later IPs if you want. But if you take sprint actions, you move additional meters right then and there.

So yes, if you are a ways away from your enemies, you'll end up having to delay your action to the last IP, essentially giving every single gunbunny a shot off before your axe attack lands. If you are really stealthy or blisteringly fast, this doesn't really matter.

Also, why is it so freaking painful to advance in this game? Is it a feature or were there problems with this in the previous editions?


The Karma system is inherently a legacy effect from previous editions. With the current BP system, there's no reason for Karma to exist at all. Seriously, I suggest dumping it and handing out addiitonal BP.

While we're at it, is anyone else pissed off by the speshull treatment dragons get in this game?


Yes. But actually, you should see the speshul treatment that the special immortal super-elves from the last age of magic got. They were like Elminster in clown makeup.

If it makes you feel any better, while Dragons get ejaculatory descriptions all the time, game mechanically they aren't as hard to kill as a vectored thrust MBT. A dragon, even a Great Dragon, is just a really powerful piece of military equipment. The only thing that keeps them alive is named character priviledge.

-Username17
Eddore
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Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Eddore »

I'm new to Shadowrun and I have found this thread useful. By and large, thoguh, I have not been able to find many threads discussing character optimaization in fourth edition Shadowrun.

Could someone recommend some other useful threads (from any website)?
[I have seen Trollman's thread on BP efficiency]
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Shadowrunnfr Min Max

Post by Username17 »

Eddore wrote: I'm new to Shadowrun and I have found this thread useful.


Awesome. Glad to be of service.

Eddore wrote:I have not been able to find many threads discussing character optimaization in fourth edition Shadowrun.

Could someone recommend some other useful threads (from any website)?


You know, I haven't seen much of that either. It seems like a lot of the optimizers are sitting on their hands waiting for Augmentation and Street Magic to sink their teeth in. But honestly, Street Magic looks like it'll be out maybe for GenCon and who knows when people will get off their ass to finish Augmentation.

So as far as I can tell, most optimization discussion is pretty muted. Not just ere, but everywhere. I mean, if you search the SR4 forums on Dumpshock for optimization, the only thing you find is a 3 page discussion about whether there is any mechanical point in Orks. Orks cost 20 points and get you 50 points worth of attributes in exchange for reductions in the maximum number of points you are allowed to spend in two attributes that not every character even wants. That discussion should seriously be over in like one reply:

"Do Orcs have any other plus-sides?"

"Yes. You get a package deal where a bunch of marginal things (body and strength) come in for free and the costs are things you might not even notice. Merry Christmas."

Short of tht, there is much discussion about making specific character types all over the place.

-Username17
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