Shadowrun Min Max

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:17 pm

I wouldn't use the adept reaction power, as it's flat worse than the comparable spell (the former only goes to +3d6, the latter to +5d6). Save the points and get a level of Focused Concentration ASAP. Then cast the spell at Force 5.

Making the Mystic Adept's power points cost more doesn't make him worse in the long run, but it does make things difficult in the beginning, since you can't start off with all the things you care about. Which are mostly spells.

Hell, looking at the powers in the main book, I can't help but think, "Meh."

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:52 pm

ahem . . mind you, if they did, in fact, go back to the SR3 Initiative System . . both the Adept power and the spell totally should stack if i remember that correctly . . And the adept power does not come with a distraction malus.
no idea if they put a -heh- limit in there somewhere . .
so yes, if i am not misremembering . . +8d6 ini is totally doable.
which means a pretty much guaranteed 3 passes.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:58 pm

Stahlseele wrote:ahem . . mind you, if they did, in fact, go back to the SR3 Initiative System . . both the Adept power and the spell totally should stack if i remember that correctly . . And the adept power does not come with a distraction malus.
no idea if they put a -heh- limit in there somewhere . .
so yes, if i am not misremembering . . +8d6 ini is totally doable.
which means a pretty much guaranteed 3 passes.

'

The adept power specifically states that it can't be combined with anything magical or technological that increases initiative. So ... Yeah. And they hard-capped initiative at +5d6 regardless.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:30 pm

ah, thx

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:42 am

In that case, just adding static defenses would still make things pretty slick - Mystic Armor and the Armor spell DO stack; So do Combat Sense [power] and Combat Sense [Spell]. Maybe add some Magic Resist to take the edge off of inbound spell attacks, figure out a way to be resistant to fire/electricity/poison as well; basically just ensure you live long enough that you can exploit the power curve.

Combined with a couple Force 1 Sustaining Foci and using edge to Limit Break and sustain higher-force spells on them (hey presto using that F1 sustain focus to cart around 6 or 8 successes on Imp. Reflexes or Armor), plus a bound spirit for Astral perception and scouting...you're not exactly a one man shadowteam, but you'll damn sure outlive everybody but maybe the troll.

I haven't finished looking at Adept powers - is there anything that gives you spider sense? If so, I could see not using Armor at all, just stacking Combat Sense. Is it worthwhile to invest in Improved Ability (Gymnastics) for extra Dodge dice?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:20 pm

Not taking Damage you have to stage down is always superior to taking Damage and being able to stage it down.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:43 pm

Which is why it's fundamentally better to have someone/something else besides your character actually go on the run instead. So people with minions are good. People with fungible minions are best.

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:45 am

So... how's this for a Mystic Adept? This is a very rough idea since I'm AFB at the moment. I'll flesh it out in a bit.

Currently the concept is a combat mage cum infiltrator of sorts.

Priorities
A: Magic (Mag 6, 2 Magic skills at 5, 10 spells)
B: Attributes (20)
C: Skills (28/2)
D: Money ($50k)
E: Race (Human/1)

Stats
STR 2/6
BOD 1/6
AGI 5/6
REA 5/6
LOG 5/6
INT 6/6
WIL 3/6
CHA 1/6
EDG 3/6
Essence 6
Magic 6

Skills
*Spellcasting 5 (Specialty +2)
*Conjuring 5 (Specialty +2)
Assensing 1 (Specialty +2)

Automatics 6 (Specialty +2)
Perception 6 (Specialty +2)
Gymnastics 6 (Specialty +2)
Unarmed Combat 1 (Specialty +2)

Spells
Improved Invisibility
Increase Reflexes
Physical Mask
7 more

Adept Powers
Combat Sense 1 (gratis from Eagle)
Improved Senses 4 (ultrasound, thermovision, low-light vision, vision magnification) (1 PP)
Attribute Boost (Strength)
Attribute Boost (Agility)
4.5 PP left

Qualities
Mentor Spirit - Eagle (5)
Negative Qualities (-25)

Karma Spending
6 Power Points (30)

10 more points free.[/u][/b]

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:09 am

I'm considering playing 5th edition Shadowrun with my friends, much as I hate the game, so it'd be more for social interaction than to enjoy the game itself. I want to play simplest thing possible, based on funny rules on stealth caps; Troll stealth specialist who sneaks up and hits people with a big ax (or other high damage melee weapon).

I don't own a 5th edition Shadowrun book, but I have played/own a 4thAnniversary edition of Shadowrun.

Basic concept, is a Troll who got his face surgically altered to that of the Internet sensation "Troll Face", or his face is strikingly similar naturally (if Distinctive Style is available). If not, he'd wear some helm with said visage (do note, I don't care for the term "trolling" or the meme, which just highlights my lack of interest for the game). Since buff guys are the best Ninjas, I want to highlight that, and if possible, maybe a social skill like Bluffing, or some good gun skill, if that's NOT TOO MUCH.

Any ideas how to go about it, I just want to have something ready for this/next week.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:13 pm

You have to keep in mind that having a high Strength doesn't give you a better Stealth. What it does is raise the maximum hits you can get on a stealth roll.

Most of the time, the higher Physical Limit won't actually matter. It will only be useful when you get a lucky roll. The SR5 stealthy troll is only marginally more stupid than the SR4 stealthy troll.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:51 pm

I'd consider the Trollerbow and Trollerskates for him maybe.
No idea of the actual numbers, but you could do some sill stuff with these.

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:47 pm

Stahlseele wrote:I'd consider the Trollerbow and Trollerskates for him maybe.
No idea of the actual numbers, but you could do some sill stuff with these.

What are these things?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:03 pm

Trollerbow.
Using the massive Strength of Trolls to propell an Arrow to supersonic speeds to inflict massive ammounts of Damage.

Trollerskates.
Using Roller-Skates to amplify a Trolls Movement-Rate to silly ammounts for entertaining effects.

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:40 pm

NineInchNall wrote:Which is why it's fundamentally better to have someone/something else besides your character actually go on the run instead. So people with minions are good. People with fungible minions are best.

This is why Mr Johnson hires runners.

JesterZero · Post by **JesterZero** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:03 am

Trollerskates are somewhat less effective in SR5 (since trolls suffer from a sprint multiplier penalty) than they were in SR4 (where trolls actually benefited from a walk/run rate bonus).

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:36 am

Stahlseele wrote:Trollerbow.
Using the massive Strength of Trolls to propell an Arrow to supersonic speeds to inflict massive ammounts of Damage.

Ah, that... it's less overwhelming in 5E because the damage levels you reach are only equivalent to a sniper rifle, albeit with much more finicky reloading and bulkiness. In 4E you could outmatch assault cannons with it. Plus, being a troll needs a heft Race priority investment, not really worth it IMO.

Trollerskates.
Using Roller-Skates to amplify a Trolls Movement-Rate to silly ammounts for entertaining effects.

No rules for skates in the core, but like JesterZero said, Humans/Elves/Orks have the fast move rate now.

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:06 am

If you really want to troll people, get a semiautomatic grenade launcher. Enjoy discussing explosive rebound and the sturdiness of every single wall and floor, twice per initiative pass.

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:18 am

rasmuswagner wrote:If you really want to troll people, get a semiautomatic grenade launcher. Enjoy discussing explosive rebound and the sturdiness of every single wall and floor, twice per initiative pass.

<shakes finger> nuh uh uh! You can only make one "attack" an initiative pass in SR5 now. No, I'm not sure why either. I've heard "because fuck you" is a popular reason...

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:24 am

Yeah, you need a Fully Automatic Grenade Launcher, so that you can use walking fire and have up to ten different explosions, each calculating walls and floors and ceilings and have that still only count as "one attack."

Only by combining stupid shit from 5th edition into a Voltron of stupid can you not have the stupid shit in 5th edition constantly thwarting you.

-Username17

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:58 am

The rules for that are pure Mother-May-I as well.

Q: what constitutes an "attack"?
A: there are no actual rules to cover that, but you'll know it when you see it

*example: what if I throw a grenade, not at the person, but at the ground near them? Can I do that twice a round? And if not, what happens if I change that grenade to a rock?
answer: your actions are in a quantum state. If it's a grenade, that's an attack, and you can't do it. If it's a rock, then it's not an attack, so you can.

* true conversation I had on DS, except for the sarcastic quantum state part I added

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:53 am

The "only one attack" could have been a good way to avoid having to make 18 rolls for all the shots a single character makes in 3 seconds, had it been done correctly.

It's typical of the SR5 changes: they correctly identified something that could be improved and did something stupid that creates more problems than it solves.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:53 am

My brain is so full of fuck right now. Quantum state rules? Very Sci-Fi of you SR5. Why have a rules heavy system and then throw your arms in the air and say "fuck it" with core conflict resolution? Hacks, all of them.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:03 pm

That was already the case with many rules in SR4.
The problem of a rules heavy system is that you get to a point where you have to choose to either stop there and elt the GM handle the other cases, or rule on everything.

SR3 chose the latter. You had rules for everything, each kind of possession (voodoo, insect spirits, shedims, etc.) had their own set of rules, there were rules for surgery where you rolled for the preparation of the surgery, then for the surgery itself and probably for the recovery as well. There were even modifiers to olfactive detectors for menstruating characters.

In the "streamlining" efforts of SR4, the game went into the opposite direction. It had less rules, and less complex rules. To counter that, many of these rules required GM discretion/interpretation. It also let GMs adapt the rules to their playstyle, because SR4 didn't try to force any particular playstyle. And of course, there's also probably some bad writing, poor explanations and a few cases of inconsistencies.

SR5 went even further in that direction, while adding very specific rules to enforce things they thought were necessary. With very messy results.

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:37 pm

Blade, can you post some of what you saw as the SR4 streamlining that required more GM discretion / interpretation?

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:48 pm

There is a difference between GM blowjobs for weird niche rules and "what is an attack?".