Shadowrun Min Max

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:11 am

@phlapjackage:

- The difference between traditions. There were rules cast in stone in SR3, in SR4 Digital Grimoire had a paragraph about how Houngan shouldn't treat their loas the same way an hermetist treat his elementals, but it was all up to the GM.

- The removal of the gear weights. Now it's up to the GM to decide if you're overburdened or not.

- There's an Instruction skill and tutorsofts that are supposed to help characters learn new skills, but no rules about learning new skills.

That's just on the top of my head, but there are many more examples.

(But I agree that it's extremely ridiculous in some of SR5 rules, such as the "only one attack")

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:47 pm

@Blade, thanks for the reply. Yeah, a lot of the magic stuff in SR4 qualifies for that kind of label of "rules-lite". Things like "if a mage treats a summoned spirit badly, the spirit may turn on them" or whatever. Or the Spirit Affinity PQ. Or countless others.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:13 pm

That's really, exactly the sort of thing I'd like a rule for. I don't effing care about rules for having explosion pulses bouncing back and forth between walls to turn people into chunky salsa.

But having a rule that gives me a good idea of whether I should even bother using a skill? Yeah, that seems useful.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:25 am

With what little help I had, I was forced to make a character on the spot (truly terrible situation I hate every minute to ever be in), 5th edition changes brought me to a mental crawl far as getting it done ASAP went (it's what I get for not caring enough to look up the rules beforehand I suppose). I'm aware that Trolls seem to suck w/50% pricing (which I think is unneeded), and Katanas seem to the best melee weapon.

It's still unfinished in places, as I didn't really care, and just wanted to play,but here it is:

Primary Alias: Pauley Bradley
Metatype: Troll
Sex: Male

Attributes (B Priority)
Body 9 (11)
Agility 4 (6)
Reaction 3 (4)
Strength 10 (12)
Willpower 3
Logic 1
Intuition 3
Charisma 3

Edge 1? (not sure what "D" Priority would be here)
Essence 4.3-ish
Init: 6+2d6

Physical Limit: 12
Mental Limit: 3
Social Limit: 4

Skills (C Priority)
Stealth 6 DP=14
Blades 6 (Axes +2) DP=15
Heavy Weapons 6 DP=12
Gymnastics 4 DP=12
Perception 6?
Con 6? DP=9
First Aid 2?

Knowledge Skills: (8 free)
English N
Russian 3
Trawling 4

Qualities
Catlike (bonus on Sneak) -7
Toughness (+1 Dam Res) -9
Natural Athlete (bonus to Athletics skill group & Gymnastics) -7
Distinctive Style (surgically Altered face) +5
Moderate Addiction (LongHaul) +9 (taken from this post)

Gear (A Priority, 1000 left or so)
Combat Ax: Reach 3, Dam 17, Acc 4, AP -4
Punch: Reach 1, Dam 14
M202 Stoner MMG: 10P, Acc 5, AP -3, FA, 100 (belt), Gas Vent 3,Shockpad, Recoil comp =9. x200 rounds, x50 Stick n Shock
Ares Antioch (Grenade Launcher) Acc 6, SA, w/Flash Bang x10, High Explosive x10

Armored Jacket (wears over the Cham suit)
Chameleon Suit (errata'd it to suck,it's alright if wireless)

Augmentations:
Alpha Muscle Augmentation & Toner Rat 2
Alpha Bone Lacing 2
Reflex Recorder (Blades)
Synaptic Booster 1

Misc:
10xLonghaul
Foam Spray x2 Rat 25
Fake SIN
Fake gun license? Rat 4, Ax-license Rat 1
Medkit Rat 6
Meta Link x8 (disposable commlinks ahoy!)
"Team Motorcycle" (the 5000 one, group said I should get it for some silly reason)

Remaining Karma 7 (should invest in 11 more negative pts I know)

Combat wise: 15DP for Ax, 14DP for stealth, 13DP dodge, and 27DP total armor (12 armor,11body +2bones, +1 Dermal, +1 Toughness)

?=Leftover Karma pt errors,since thought used same costs, instead of using the character advancement costs.

I'd imagine if I was to be more optimal, I'd opt for Ork instead of Troll, without +50% BS costs, I'd get Synthcardium, Platlets for pseudo-DR, and get Cybereyes to get all that juicy vision junk.

Funnily enough, the group seemed to like my troll quite a bit, people always seem to think Trolls are more powerful then they actually are. Also, they didn't know that 5th edition didn't have "No Doubletap" till I had to unfortunately point it out to them after the session (but it's kinda buried subtly there, figured would put that crap in bold). Lastly, seems like the groups magician forgetting to roll for Drain on spells, and someone had crap spells. Alas, there was no FA-Grenade Launcher, they limit # of ranks can put into Group skills, and Hate Trolls/Dwarves for some reason.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:05 pm

What kind of security would the sealed floors of the Renraku Arcology (ACHE?) have as far as keeping people out? It's a semi-public structure with gov't control, but I don't quite know what kind of resources would be thrown at keeping people out of the forbidden sections.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:38 pm

oh is the troll archer still a thing in 5E?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:38 pm

Ferret wrote:oh is the troll archer still a thing in 5E?

Sort of.

First of all: the combat rules are a fucking mess and I genuinely don't know how many attacks you're supposed to be making with various weapons. A strong reading of the "one attack" rule makes SS weapons in all ways superior to semi-automatic weapons because single shot weapons don't do recoil.

Bows don't actually say what kind of action it is to fire them. At all. They are a projectile weapon, and they give a page citation to page 181 of the combat chapter for the special rules of projectiles. Here, I'll show them to you in their entirety:

Shadowrun 5th edition wrote:Ranged combat rules also apply to bows and throwing weapons. Some special rules also apply.

Seriously. That's the whole thing. Bows get a listing where it copypasta's the equipment description (minus the part that was a page citation to this), and um... yeah. That's all you get. Having read SR4, I am pretty sure that firing a Bow is something that you can do once per action, but SR5 is such a fucking mess that I can't be certain. It doesn't seem to actually bother saying that anywhere in the book.

Now, leaving aside the fundamental issues that some of the most important rules regarding bows and throwing knives don't seem to exist, there's the bows themselves. Bows are cheap, and the biggest bow in the basic book does 12P damage with -2 AP and requires a Strength of 10 to fire. Actually, with SR5 damage inflation, it's not really all that impressive. It's heavy rifle damage, but it's no artillery piece. Also, it's "Rating 10" so I don't think you're allowed to have it in your starting equipment. But it's legal, not hard to find, and can be purchased with starting money, so it's pretty much irrelevant either way.

Now, obviously you'll be able to get better bows at some point, since there are no special hi-tech pulley-based compound bow options in the basic book and Shadowrun canon is full of that crap. But even so you won't really care, because damage inflation being what it is in 5th edition you'll still be able to do much better damage with a machine gun or burst fire shotgun.

Bottom line: using the equipment in the basic book, there is no reason to be a Troll Archer over being an Ork Archer (who can still use the top equipment in the book, has better attribute caps, and costs less). And an Archer does enough damage to drop people, but not enough to make firearms feel small in the pants. Being Black Arrow is interesting entirely because the bow is cheap and legal. Of course, you have to buy a lot of Strength, which is still a shitty attribute (only affecting your running, swimming, climbing, and melee damage), so how cheap it really is, is somewhat arguable.

-Username17

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:08 am

First of all: the combat rules are a fucking mess and I genuinely don't know how many attacks you're supposed to be making with various weapons. A strong reading of the "one attack" rule makes SS weapons in all ways superior to semi-automatic weapons because single shot weapons don't do recoil.

One attack. Combat is Simple + 2 Free actions now. SA raises your recoil, but since all recoil vanishes after one IP spent without firing, secondary combatants, like hackers and mages, can always find something to do to clean the recoil counter.

Heisenberg · Post by **Heisenberg** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:18 am

God damn, the SR5 combat chapter is such awful scum vomit filth shit arghlbarghl rage. It reads like it was written by a gaggle of crack-addicted, aids infected monkeys, but really, it was probably just written by someone who should be torn apart by said monkeys.

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:01 am

FrankTrollman wrote:
Ferret wrote:oh is the troll archer still a thing in 5E?
First of all: the combat rules are a fucking mess and I genuinely don't know how many attacks you're supposed to be making with various weapons. A strong reading of the "one attack" rule makes SS weapons in all ways superior to semi-automatic weapons because single shot weapons don't do recoil.

I think one of the differences with SS/SA weapons in SR5 is that SA weapons can also do a "3-round burst", which only counts as one attack and gives SA weapons more ooomph in exchange for recoil/more ammo spent etc.

My big problem with this is that the SA "3-round burst" is something entirely different from a weapon with BF capability doing a "3-round burst". It just becomes yet another clusterfail with the different firing modes.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:42 am

IIRC the RAW in SR4 didn't have any option to fire a bow either if you took them literally. Just like spirits couldn't use their materialization or possession power.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:55 am

Blade wrote:IIRC the RAW in SR4 didn't have any option to fire a bow either if you took them literally. Just like spirits couldn't use their materialization or possession power.

Bows take a simple action to ready in SR4 and there is no difference between different firing modes if you only have one arrow and only one simple action left in your IP. It's not at all difficult to figure out how to fire them.

In SR5, the thrown and projectile weapons are formatted like melee weapons, but are ranged weapons and therefore need to have their attack action defined because you're only allowed one "attack" per round but the different attack types do all kinds of crazy bullshit on top of that.

SR5 is a really badly put together book.

-Username17

andreww · Post by **andreww** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:57 pm

I am going to be playing SR5 shortly so thought I would see if I could get some character creation advice. I have never played SR before but have done a fair amount of reading around.

I am not looking to get into major rules arguments or discussion, instead I am looking for some practical advice on whether I have missed anything obvious, whether I could set priorities better (skills are very low) and on spell choice. I am not looking to break the system in half but have a character capable of contributing to the game, practical rather than theoretical optimisation. Also the game is far more Sons of Anarchy than Cyberpunk.

For rules purposes my GM is allowing Power Foci to add to magic rating for everything but wont allow Edge cast F1 sustained spells in R1 Sustaining Foci (but I can do it with Reagents).

Priorities:

A Magic
B Attributes
C Race (Elf)
D Resources
E Skills

Would I be better off with Human (E) and just cast Increased Charisma?

Attributes:

Magic 6
Body 2
Agility 2
Reaction 4 (8 for Surprise and Defence from Combat Sense)
Strength 2
Willpower 5
Logic 3
Intuition 5
Charisma 8
Essence 6
Edge 4

Derived Stats:

Initiative: 9+1d6 (13+3d6 with Increased Reflexes)
Astral Initiative: 10+2d6
Physical Limit: 4
Mental Limit: 6
Social Limit: 9
Physical Boxes: 9
Stun Boxes: 11

Active Skills:

Summoning 6 (+2 Spirits of Air)
Spellcasting 6 (+2 Manipulation)
Counterspell 4
Binding 1
Ritual Casting 1
Etiquette 4
Intimidate 1 (+2)
Assensing 1
Perception 1
Pistol 1

Knowledge Skills:

English N
Street Gangs 4
Horizon Corporation 4
Magical Theory 4
Fences 4

Qualities:

Focused Concentration 3 (12)
Mentor Spirit (Thunderbird) (5)

Prejudiced (Radically against Aspected Magicians, damned amateurs! (-8)
Spirit Bane (Water) (-7)
Incompetent (Close Combat) (-5)
Distinctive Style (Tattoos) (-5)

Spells:

Combat Sense
Mind Probe
Heal
Increased Reflexes
Improved Invisibility
Control Thoughts
Mob Mind
TriD Phantasm
Armour
Ball Lightning
Mana Bolt

Karma and Gear (70k):
Remaining: 2 Karma, 300 nuyen

Starting Karma: 25 + 25 (negative qualities) – 17 (positive qualities)
10 Karma converted to cash
16 Karma on binding Foci
5 Karma on spells

Magical Equipment (49k):
Foci: +2 Power (36k), 2 Rank 1 Sustaining Foci (8k)
Rank 6 Magical Lodge (3k)
100 drams of Reagents (2k, 8 used on Combat Sense and Increased Reflexes)

Weapons and Armour (2.05k):
Ares Predator V with 200 rounds of ammo (0.95k)
Armoured Jacket plus Helmet (1.1k, AR14)

Other Equipment (18.6k):
Rank 4 Fake Sin (10k)
Rank 3 fake licenses for Handguns, Foci and Spellcasting (1.8k)
Hermes Ikon Comlink (Rating 5) (3k)
Glasses (2.15k)
(Flash Compensation, Thermographic Vision, +2 Visual Enhancement)
Ear Buds (1.65k)
(+3 auditory enhancement)

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:20 pm

andreww wrote:10 Karma converted to cash

Where/what is the rules on converting Karma to cash in 5th edition Shadowrun? It was implied to be a thing in some Quick-start PDF guide, but never found it in the book itself, assuming they took it out or something. I'm hoping to find ways to optimize my own Troll Street Sam I posted above (man, I hate level-up costs on karma requiring so much power leveling).

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:26 pm

Aryxbez wrote:
andreww wrote:10 Karma converted to cash
Where/what is the rules on converting Karma to cash in 5th edition Shadowrun? It was implied to be a thing in some Quick-start PDF guide, but never found it in the book itself, assuming they took it out or something. I'm hoping to find ways to optimize my own Troll Street Sam I posted above (man, I hate level-up costs on karma requiring so much power leveling).

P.101, "Character creation checklist" - dat editing.
You convert 1 karma -> 2000 nuyen, up to 10 karma converted.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:55 pm

No, casting Attribute-Enhance-Ment-Spells is stupid. Don't do it.
Go with the Elf. Have him be a charisma based magic tradition.
Have him also be the Face. And give him someting to shoot.
You get a bonus to all of these.
Elf is just the perfect little snowflake in shadowrun.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:32 am

Hmm, question from me here:
How does the Hackastack and Infinity Mirror Trick hold up against AOE Attacks?
I am debating this with a buddy and from his explanation it sounds to me as if an AOE Attack will take care of it all in one fell swoop . .

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:30 am

Stahlseele wrote:Hmm, question from me here:
How does the Hackastack and Infinity Mirror Trick hold up against AOE Attacks?
I am debating this with a buddy and from his explanation it sounds to me as if an AOE Attack will take care of it all in one fell swoop . .

What AOE attacks?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:12 am

There are no AoE attacks in the Shadowrun Matrix and never have been any. Even if there were, the Hackastack functions just fine so long as every device is in handshake range of at least one other device that is in handshake range of the next device and so on in a chain that connects every device. So your hackastack could be spread across hundreds or thousands of meters of terrain and still function as a unit.

-Username17

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 12:17 pm

aaah, ok, that would explain that.
i never quite got the matrix stuff in any system <.<

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:14 pm

Stahlseele wrote:aaah, ok, that would explain that.
i never quite got the matrix stuff in any system <.<

Don't worry, neither did the writers or developer.

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:45 pm

So I'm making a human Mystic Adept and I'd like some critique on my build. The plan is to buff up using Focused Concentration to stack Edged versions of all the Increase X spells and keep them running forever. Improved Invis and Levitation keep me mobile and then I just Edge summon a big spirit and have it run wild all over people.

PRIORITIES
A - Mystic Adept (MAG 6, 2 R5 Magical skills, 10 spells)
B - Attributes (20)
C - Skills (28/2)
D - Metatype (Human/3)
E - Resources (6k)

ATTRIBUTES
BOD 1/6
AGI 5/6
REA 5/6
STR 2/6
WIL 5/6
LOG 5/6
INT 5/6
CHA 2/6
EDG 5/7
ESS 6
MAG 6

Init 10+1d6

Mental Limit 7
Physical Limit 5
Social Limit 5

Physical 9
Stun 11
Overflow 1

SKILLS
Spellcasting 5 (gratis)
Summoning 5 (gratis)

+1 Spellcasting (Health Spells +2)[1.5]
+1 Summoning (Spirits of Man +2)[1.5]

Perception 6 (Visual +2) [7]
Pistols 6 (Tasers +2) [7]
Assensing 6 (Aura Reading +2) [7]

First Aid 1 (Trauma +2) [2]
Unarmed 1 (Blocking +2) [2]

Athletics Skill Group
Stealth Skill Group 1

MAGIC
6 Power Points
- Combat Sense (gratis)
- Astral Perception
- Attribute Boost (Agility) (0.25)
- Attribute Boost (Reaction) (0.25)
- Attribute Boost (Strength) (0.25)
- Improved Sense (Ultrasound) (0.25)
- Enhanced Perception (0.5)

10 Spells:
- Mind Probe
- Heal
- Increase Willpower
- Increase Intuition
- Improved Invisibility
- Physical Mask
- Trid Phantasm
- Mob Mind
- Levitate

RESOURCES
Defiance EX Shocker (250)
- Laser Sight (Top) (125)
- Taser Darts x40 (200)
Ruger Super Warhawk (400)
- Laser Sight (Top) (125)
- Explosive Rounds x30 (240)
Concealable Holster (150)

Lined Coat (900)

Sony Emperor (200)

Microtransceiver (100)

R3 Contacts (600)
- Image Link (25)
- Flare Comp (250)
- Thermovision (500)
R2 Glasses (400)
- V-Mag (250)

1 month Low Lifestyle (1000)

5515/6000 spent

QUALITIES
Focused Concentration 5 (20)
Mentor Spirit (Eagle) (5)

Corporate SIN (-25)

Gremlins 1 (4)
Prejudiced (abusive/neglectful parents, specific/outspoken) (5)

Karma Spends
STR 1 to 2 (5)
CHA 1 to 2 (5)
6 Power Points (12)

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:42 am

If the GM does not do the Wards thing, then this will probably work out well enough for you.
As soon as you have to move through a ward, you get into so much trube.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:57 am

Focused Concentration can't be split. FC5 allows you to sustain one Force 5 spell, not five Force 1 spells. And Wards problem.
Better plan would be binding Spirits of Man, and have them cast and sustain buffs on you.

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:14 am

Bod 1 in SR5 is gonna make you hate life. Yeah, yeah, 1 piece of armor no matter what your Bod is etc. But damage codes (esp. grenades) are much deadlier, and your Bod checks / overflow / condition monitor really really suck.