What is it about "Low Magic?"

[Captain_Bleach]

In both third-party products and fan-created web sites, I am noticing a rather common trend: house rules and/or settings to make low-magic d20 games, whether it be D&D or a sub-system all its own.
What is it about the idea of "low magic" that appeals to so many d20 players? Has the gap between non-casters/partial casters and full casters become so large that a bunch of people have arrived to the same conclusion is to "nerf casters and/or make them more rare" in order to make "Low Magic" settings?
I once asked on the D&D boards how to properly make a low magic setting. One response was to not nerf PC spell casters in any way whatsoever. The ability to spontaneously Create Water, hit an opponent without any attack roll (magic missile) are amazing abilities for 1st level characters, compared to the bonus feat that a Fighter gets or the Sneak Attack +1d6 for a Rogue. The way that magic is set up in D&D is that you would have to be a fool to not benefit from it unless there is some balancing factor, whether it be "Laws of Equivalent Exchange"-type thing based off of Full Metal Alchemist, or "Magic is evil and destroys you over time!" based off of Conan. Then I looked at the Black Company Campaign Setting's spell system, but the "Drain" factor, which involves non-lethal damage, is only dangerous when in combat or performing risky activities. However, seeing as how most D&D characters perform risky activities on a regular basis, it makes magic's limiting factor be the character's hit points, which is a universal limiting factor all around.
In short, does anybody have any answer to what makes "Low Magic" so popular, or how to make a d20 low magic game?

[rapanui]

When people speak of "low magic", they often mean it in terms of how common magical phenomena are, and not necessarily in terms of the rules of magic.

Let's you have a game where 1st level spells are IT. You can't go any further. But, everyone in the world can use 0 and 1st level spells. Is the setting then really "low magic" when you're running into it every 2 seconds? No. Likewise, you could (ignoring balance considerations for a moment) leave caster progression as is, but state that only 1 sentient being every 12 generations has the potential to take the Wizard class. That's low Magic, even if that one individual can cast Shapeshift and Gate.

The problem, of course, is that if you go with the latter approach, the caster becomes extremely powerful compared to everyone else, since there's no way for the other classes to craft/buy magical equipment, etc.

Low Magic appeals for many reasons, predominantly because magic feels more like magic when it's rare. After a while, you imagine Harry Potter thinks of lumos as just another way to turn on the lights... it's not even remotely interesting to him anymore.

If the only magic in your campaign are a finite number of ancient scrolls left over from a forgotten race of gods, you can bet that every time your players find and activate one of those scrolls, it will be a memorable occasion.

There's nothing inherent in the d20 rules that stop a low magic campaign except the fact that the monsters are written up to oppose a party with magic. Careful readjustment of encounters and beasts (and outright removal of any creatures with powerful spell-like abilities or innate spellcasting) allows you to play low magic d20.

[Captain_Bleach]

Of course, I heard a couple of suggestions for "Low-Magic" games is to make it "Low-Magic" for everyone, and to place those restrictions on monsters if you are using another spell system with the same restrictions, or up the monsters' CR.

[Jacob_Orlove]

People like "low magic" because it mirrors a lot of the source material (myths, fables, fantasy literature) much better than than the "high magic" of regular D&D.

[Yahzi]

I agree; low magic fits classic fantasy better, from Tolkien back to Homer.

[Leress]

I know of one "low magic" d20 setting and that is Sean K Reynolds's New Argonauts.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/002TNA/

[tzor]

When people say "low magic" they tend to think of one of two things (and one can think of both at the same time).

Magic is generally not common so when it is used it is considered impressive by the common folk. In some cases magic users are not trusted because they are so rare.

Magic comes at a price. You see that a lot in classic literature. Leiber's world of Nehwon is a classic example where back wizards get progressively ugly as they advance in their black arts. A better example, however, is in a Sinbad movie where Tom Baker (normally known for his role in Dr. Who but he also made one fantastic Sherlock Holmes) playing the BBEG looses so much con making all his spells that he's practically a cripple by the end of the movie.

You can't do it with D&D out of the box. You can do it with d20 by making the wole world fresh and centered around the low magic assumption. (New Argonauts is a good example.) Generally you have to understand that you are pushing the balance between fighter and wizard strongly towards the fighter side, in some cases making wizard a non playable option for players.

And that, I think is the reason for the season. In addition to the relation of the idea to the real world myths, it is the problem of making a low magic system out of D&D that gives it such an appeal. It forces designers to think about the fundamental issues of fighter/wizard balance in a way that frankly the designers of 3E never bothered to consider. The implications of low magic ... monsters that can't be solved by going to ye ld mgic shoppe ... the inability to cure any type of damage or disease during combat as often as necessary ... make all situations different.

For me the image below will always remind me of "low magic" but that's only because I got my "dead greek" with my signed copy of The New Argonauts at GenCon last year.

[shirak]

1186037607[/unixtime]]I know of one "low magic" d20 setting and that is Sean K Reynolds's New Argonauts.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/002TNA/

I feel offended that this game even exists.

[Judging__Eagle]

Thanks for the link Leress, I got a pile of free dungeon tiles, cutouts and some other stuff for free at Drivethru RPGs. Oh, and that New Argo's setting. I might even read it.

I sorta don't like having to use a setting that makes me have to use new monsters or makes my monster manuals useless.

[Captain_Bleach]

1186059062[/unixtime]]

1186037607[/unixtime]]I know of one "low magic" d20 setting and that is Sean K Reynolds's New Argonauts.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/skrg/products/002TNA/

I feel offended that this game even exists.

What is it that you find offensive?

[shirak]

1186075181[/unixtime]]What is it that you find offensive?

• 
  
• The Hellenic Sorceress class is stupidly broken.
  
• The new feats are stupid. Heal 1d4 damage 3/day? Give me a fucking break.
  
• Various small mistakes in the text (like Hellas being the ancient name for Greece. It IS the name of Greece you fucking morons!)
  
• The only classes allowed are Barbarian, Fighter and Rogue. Need I say anything more?
  

Those are pretty much it. I could go step by step through the text if you want but really, the book sucks and as a descendant of the people who actually did all this stuff, I feel offended. What I'd like to see is a government sponsored cultural study/propaganda piece that promotes Hellenic ideas through d20. But that is a dream within a dream. What I demand is that anyone who writes about Ancient Hellas read about the fucking period. It lasted at least a millennium, it's not like you can dump everything in a few pages like S.K.Reynolds tried to do.

[MrWaeseL]

The ancient greeks were a race of scholars and merchants. D20 lends itself really badly for a system designed around such characters. They should base a campaign around the Romans, farmers and soldiers, which lend themselves much better to the low-magic hack-and-slash that game seems to want to promote.

[angelfromanotherpin]

1186092551[/unixtime]]The ancient (Athenians) were a (people) of scholars and merchants.

Fixed that for you.

Seriously, there were a lot of different cultures in that area throughout that time, and plenty of them were warrior-based, or religion-based, or piracy-based, or what have you.

[Cielingcat]

Like Sparta.

[MrWaeseL]

1186093540[/unixtime]]

1186092551[/unixtime]]The ancient (Athenians) were a (people) of scholars and merchants.

Fixed that for you.

Seriously, there were a lot of different cultures in that area throughout that time, and plenty of them were warrior-based, or religion-based, or piracy-based, or what have you.

You know what I meant! <:mad:>

[Captain_Bleach]

1186090641[/unixtime]]

1186075181[/unixtime]]What is it that you find offensive?

• 
  
• The Hellenic Sorceress class is stupidly broken.
  
• The new feats are stupid. Heal 1d4 damage 3/day? Give me a fvcking break.
  
• Various small mistakes in the text (like Hellas being the ancient name for Greece. It IS the name of Greece you fvcking morons!)
  
• The only classes allowed are Barbarian, Fighter and Rogue. Need I say anything more?
  

Those are pretty much it. I could go step by step through the text if you want but really, the book sucks and as a descendant of the people who actually did all this stuff, I feel offended. What I'd like to see is a government sponsored cultural study/propaganda piece that promotes Hellenic ideas through d20. But that is a dream within a dream. What I demand is that anyone who writes about Ancient Hellas read about the fvcking period. It lasted at least a millennium, it's not like you can dump everything in a few pages like S.K.Reynolds tried to do.

It's like 32 pages? Humor me, as ordinarily I would try to give it a peak, except 1.) I distrust things that are "free" on the Internet, and 2.) If I bought a printed copy and it is as bad as you say, I will be disappointed with myself. Now, you can be brief, but give me some more major examples of how bad it is.

Speaking of Ancient Greece, ever checked out OGL Ancients by Mongoose Publishing? I bought the book, and the only thing that I disliked about it was the "spell" systems (Prayer, Hekau, and Witchcraft).

[MrWaeseL]

Finger of Death now causes the target to bleed for 5 damage per round

edit:

Untiring (ex): The dragon does not need to sleep, though it is still susceptible to sleep effects.

[shirak]

Captain_Bleach: I'll do the mechanics today. Stay tuned.

Weasel, kitty and angel: Ancient Hellas was basically a place of specialized peoples. Let's take Pericles' Golden Century as it's what most people think of as "Ancient Greece".

• 
  
• Athenians make awesome merchants and pirates. They are mainly seafaring but have a standing army and a few cool toys from their philosophers (like Anaximander's steam engine).
  
• Spartans, as we all know, are hardcore land infantry.
  
• Cretans have the best archers around, using actual longbows to the same effects as the English will have on the French(I think?)
  
• Macedonians formulate the first sarrisas, really long spears (6m IIRC)
  
• Others do a lot of interesting but relatively minor stuff. Popular history has forgotten them but they do exist.
  

Hellas has a long history of heroes in the D&D sense of the word. Take, oh, 300 Spartans plus 700 Plataieis plus assorted hangers on taking on the millions-strong army of Persians. Take Thebes seriously being conquered by seven guys. Hell, we actually invented the word "hero"

[shirak]

Rules, Part One


Races
Blah. Only humans allowed. Blah.

CLasses
Blah. Only Barbarians, Fighters and Rogues allowed. Also the new Base Class Hellenic Sorceress. See below.
Barbarians are culturally unacceptable except for followers of Ares.
Fighters get Combat Expertise as a bonus feat plus Heal as a class skill. The book practically shouts at you to be a Fighter.
Rogues gain Heal and Survival. Yeah, like they needed it.
"Especially clever folk" should be Experts, a class "slightly weaker than a PC class". Kill me now.

Blah. PrCs. Blah.


Skills
Whatever. We all know we're here for...

Feats
Combat Expertise has limit of BAB (like Power Attack), Dodge gives +1 vs all melee attacks, Improved Critical stacks with Keen, Manyshot is banned as broken. Toughness gives +5 instead of +3 HP! Oh, what joy!

New Feats
Armor Defense Mastery: +1 max Dex and light fortification. Not bad at all.
Asclepian Doctor: You can emulate Cleric healing spells with a Heal check and 1 hour. Awesome.
Counter Combat Style: +2 shield bonus against a particular style (like TWF). Suck!
Field Surgeon: With a Heal check, target gains 1d4 HP next time it rests. Greater Suck +1
Hellenic Alchemy: You can make magic items.
Hellenic Priest: You spend a feat slot and accept a code of conduct. In return, three times per day, you may heal 1d4 HP by touch. Greater Suck +2
Leaping Attack: You charge, you Jump, you auto threaten a critical. Plus, if you drop the enemy you can keep on charging. Awesome!
Luck of the Gods: +1 on saves. Suck!
Monster Hunter: +1 bonus on skills and damage vs monsters. Suck!
Nature Spirit Lore: +4 social vs nature creatures. Meh.
Orphean Music: Inspire courage or countersong as bard. Pretty good actually.
Scholar: Knowledge is class and +1 on any two social or knowledge skills. Meh.
Touch of Immortality: +1 Fort, +2 HP, 25% to stabilize. Meh.



Hellenic Sorceress

This class is like a cross between Sorcerer and Adept only it sucks. It's full of stupid "flavor" changes to rules. But, as a testament to the ability of SKR to annoy me, it's the master of SoD's by level 8. Seriously, at that level you can cast Baleful Polymorph, Crushing Despair, Fear and Phantasmall Killer, all at a +4 DC and the DC can climb even more. Oh, and almost everything in the settings has sucky Will saves, to the point of SKR telling you not to pick Iron Will because you won't need it. World, mollusc.

Bloodlines

Your parents fucked gods so you're hardcore. You get bonus class skills at realistic campaigns, +2 ability bonus at "normal campaigns and random crap at "magical" campaigns. The random crap goes from Light at will to 1/day SoD's like extended Charm.

[Username17]

I'm not really sure what to do with Hellenic heroics. On the one hand it really does follow the D&D model of characters besting monsters capable of laying waste to cities, conquering nations, shattering armies, rivalling gods, and otherwise standing so tall that normals cannot see their metaphorical hat. On the other side, Hellenic heroes are not known for casting spells or trading magical swords for different magical swords.

In short, while the power levels of monsters and characters vs. the humans is about right, every single other thing about D&D is wrong wrong wrong. And that's the core of the low magic lament. Perseus has a magic pair of boots, a magic shield, and a gorgon's head. He doesn't have a magic cloak, he doesn't have a magic belt, and he doesn't upgrade his magic boots. Ever.

But D&D doesn't really work without those trappings. A fighter or a rogue can't beat a medusa with non-magical equipment and isn't really supposed to try. It's frustrating.

-Username17

[shirak]

Frank,

Ancient Hellas was really meant to be played with what Iron Heroes was supposed to be. Heroes get all their power from being themselves and then you get random story effects out of divine blood/monster parts/magic items/whatever. Perseus wasn't awesome because of the boots, he was awesome and also had boots.

D&D is really bad for this because it has the build-in assumption that characters will have magic items giving bonuses. If you get rid of this aspect of the game you can just get rid of the flavor problems and be good to go. Admittedly, you'll never get Evokers to fit in Ancient Hellas but almost everything else can be explained as god-power or Egyptian mysteries or something. So you can have Circe as a high-level Wizard and Odysseus as a Rogue/Fighter and even Zeus as the Pimp in the Sky. It's just a lot of work.

Btw, anyone has Agon? I hear it's pretty good.

[Leress]

I just finished reading the supplement, and I am sorry I brought that one up...Why play a fighter when you can play a rogue, you are still awesome and now you can take a feat that gives you light fortification?

The Hellenic Sorceress what the hell!? This makes it more Sword and Sorcery than Low magic.

Sean even says you should start the party at level 2 since you are too fragile at level one, and the "average" Greek will still kick your ass.

[Bigode]

Shirak: doesn't Thebes actually merit a description of its people's specialization?

Frank: on Perseus, one should just tell the fluff to fvck itself, make his boots' bonuses upgrade anyway and chalk it up to "he's awesome, and is just gaining more [speed/whatever the boots gave]"; on Iron Heroes - tell me, making a straight comparison between IH and D&D Core 3.5, which is the one with more fundamental problems? I'd say it's D&D, and thus I could tell someone wanting low-magic to play IH with a straight face: as has already been said, it seems published systems are divided between the bad and the worse, and I think IH managed to avoid the second group.

[RandomCasualty]

1186177339[/unixtime]]

Frank: on Perseus, one should just tell the fluff to fvck itself, make his boots' bonuses upgrade anyway and chalk it up to "he's awesome, and is just gaining more [speed/whatever the boots gave]";

Well, that's a crappy way to do low magic.

The thing with low magic is that people aren't guaranteed to have certain items. Items are defining of the character. Aladdin has a flying carpet, but King Arthur or Hercules can't fly.

Equipment really isn't a focus at all. Low Magic characters need to be able to compete without equipment on class abilities alone, as some of them may not have any equipment at all, or just a magic sword.

So stuff like mandatory bonus items, like rings of protection and amulets of natural armor need to die. Similarly stat boosting items also need to die. People should either get that stuff automatically or not need it.

In fact, I've always thought that they should have started balancing D&D on an assumption of no magic items then added the items later, since as it is now, the fighter can't survive without magic items and the wizard hardly cares.

[Captain_Bleach]

I think that if we all combined our brain-power together, we can make a d20 system that allows characters to still kick ass without magic equipment. However, Iron Heroes does an excellent job of this.