Dungeonomicon

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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by User3 »

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1152386608[/unixtime]]
Also the master figthing style that renders the target helpless should be a grand master style.

I agree with this, and I also think it should have a longer duration. Prepared players will manage to cdg opponents regardless of how long the ability lasts, so all the current version does is ensure that every monk is followed by a small group of disposable henchmen who do nothing but slit the throats of helpless opponents. That's really stupid, so the ability should be changed so that it isn't nessesary.
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by Username17 »

Draco_Argentum at [unixtime wrote:1152345931[/unixtime]]Rain of flowers means you can cast subdual fireballs. Is that the intent?


Yes, and yes. Every class should provide something to every other class when multiclassed together.

RC wrote:One thing that does sorta worry me is the concealment granting styles. That's enough to make monks totally dominate rogues, and there's seemingly no way to see through it.


Blindsense negates concealment just as arbitrarily as the Monk's Style grants it. Blindsense is currently only negated with opposed skill checks.

I agree with this, and I also think it should have a longer duration. Prepared players will manage to cdg opponents regardless of how long the ability lasts, so all the current version does is ensure that every monk is followed by a small group of disposable henchmen who do nothing but slit the throats of helpless opponents. That's really stupid, so the ability should be changed so that it isn't nessesary.


That's actually intentional. For a Master Fighting Style you get a death effect combo with your friends. For a Grand Master Fighting Style you get a death effect all by yourself. If the helplessness lasted longer t would be a death effect with no combo, and if it was a Grand Master Fighting Style it woldn't be particularly different from the Death Touch.

Yes, I'm aware that with proper setup you can "get by" with a Master Fighting Style and have it be nearly as useful as a Grand Master Fighting Style. The concep here is that what you're getting from the Grand Master version is self reliance. You get to 15th level and you no longer have to work with other people to get that effect off.

What should be in there actually is the ability to trade out your Fighting Styles for different Fighting Styles when you get to your Master Fighting Styles and trade Master Styles for different Master Styles when you get Grand Master Styles. People really should be encouraged to upgrade their old styles to more powerful versions.

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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by RandomCasualty »

You've got three save or die effects.

Grandmaster- Fort save to die.
Grandmaster- Will save or feeblemind
Master- reflex save or be helpless.

Now, the grandmaster death attack is kinda nice, but it's a fort save, and that means that its chances of success suck, since fort saves are monsters best.

The feeblemind is a will save, which is kinda nice, but feebleminding something doesn't necessarily totally screw it over unless it's a caster.

The master version on the other hand is a reflex save and takes something down all the same, so long as it's not immune to criticals. Even if it is immune to criticals, you can still full power attack the thing into the ground.

If it wasn't a reflex save, I'd probably say the master thing might be okay. But the reflex save or die is way better than the others given that it's a reflex save (the worst save for most any monster) and the good save of rogues, but by then you've got concealment so you're immune to sneak attack anyway and thus laugh at rogues.


Blindsense negates concealment just as arbitrarily as the Monk's Style grants it. Blindsense is currently only negated with opposed skill checks.


You're thinking of blind sight I think. Blind sense merely lets you know what square the creature is in, which doesn't do anything against concealment.
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by Username17 »

but it's a fort save, and that means that its chances of success suck, since fort saves are monsters best.


It can seem that way sometimes. But against the actual 15th and 16th level opposition in the Monster Manual, there are only two creatures that have Fortitude as its best save - the Hound Archon Paladin. In every other case, Fortitude is a middle or low save.

They go to a fair amount of trouble to balance the saves out among different monsters. I don't think that having a save be one thing or another is particularly powerful (save that having all 3 saves on different abilities is particularly powerful).

The Feebleminding should perhaps be a Master ability, but the fact that it gives a -4 save penalty to any creature with a Spell-like ability is pretty stiff. That was my reasoning I think for making it so high level in the first place. But yeah, that one might be weak.

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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Question about the Monk


FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1151348012[/unixtime]]While Active, your Grand Master Fighting Style affects any target you strike with your slam attack with a disintegrate effect, with a caster level equal to your character level.


Is this supposed to not have a save?
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by Username17 »

Count wrote:Is this supposed to not have a save?


Nah, it uses the normal disintegrate effect. That means that it's a Fort Save with a decent pile of damage if you fail and a crappy pile of damage if you succeed.

As an attack, it kind of sucks. But it lets you drop wall of force with a slap, and tunnel, and so on and so forth. It's a utility option rather than a power option.

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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

So, what's the save DC? I'm not seeing it.
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by User3 »

Count_Arioch_the_28th at [unixtime wrote:1152612090[/unixtime]]So, what's the save DC? I'm not seeing it.


10+0.5*level+WIS?
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by Nidhogg »

I do think that its a little broken to be pulling Save or Dies or 40d6 damage out of your pants with impunity. I mean, Save or Die is the Wizard's forte, and this Monk definately does it much better than a spellcaster ever can, especialy since the target still gets clobbered by the slam attack anyways. It isn't a large issue, because I can always just swap it for energy damage or something if a player starts insta-raping all of the badguys, but I still think that I would rather live without Save or Die effects entirely (except for Destruction, because it's so darn *cool*), rather than handing them out like candy to make up for the fact that Wizards can bust a couple of them out per day.

My main issue, though, is with the transformation of Prestige Class character concepts in to Core Classes. One of the things I like most about 3rd Edition was that it got rid of the need for silly class varients to fill in amissing character niche (face it, 2nd Ed. kits were as dumb as AD&D's Cavalier), because you could just multiclass in to a Prestige class. I thought that some of the 'extra' classes from the new splat books were counter-intuative, because they did stupid things like make a Ninja Core Class (plus, Sudden Strike is unforgivable). Some ideas were cool (Warlocks, Favored Souls), while some should have been Prestige Classes (Ninjas, Hexblades, Spellthieves), and some were just plain dumb (Samurai, and Swashbuckler; really, what's the point of reprinting the Fighter with a few dumb class abilities and all of his Feat choices pre-selected). Hell, the Ranger and Paladin are just holdovers that should have been Druid and Cleric prestige classes. Seriously.

I guess what I'm saying, is that Core Classes should be relatively broad archetypes, and that Prestige Classes should represent specific niches in said archetype, and specialise in them more than the Core Class can. Mind you, this is purely oppinion. Someone out there probably thinks that Prestige Classes are dumb, and that Pirate and Dancer should be classes, and not specialisions of the Rogue and Bard classes, but I would have to disagree with them, on the grounds that the 2nd Ed kits were fucking stupid.
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by Username17 »

Nidhogg wrote:I do think that its a little broken to be pulling Save or Dies or 40d6 damage out of your pants with impunity. I mean, Save or Die is the Wizard's forte, and this Monk definately does it much better than a spellcaster ever can, especialy since the target still gets clobbered by the slam attack anyways. It isn't a large issue, because I can always just swap it for energy damage or something if a player starts insta-raping all of the badguys, but I still think that I would rather live without Save or Die effects entirely (except for Destruction, because it's so darn *cool*), rather than handing them out like candy to make up for the fact that Wizards can bust a couple of them out per day.


Within the standard gaming environment - where you have 1-6 encounters per day against opposition with an EL between +/-4 of your party's level - the Monk's ability to inflict a death effect with an ordinary attack at will is completely meaningless in the face of the Wizard's ability to throw more death effects than he needs to effect every opponent in a large area without rolling dice. Wail of the Banshee cast just one time is generally a bigger impact on any encounter than a Monk using his Dim Mak every round. The Monk is behind on death strikes, he only validates his existence with his other powers. His short range at-will teleporting, for example, can sometimes be quite useful.

That being said, I'm sure that someday you'll encounter a dream challenge that will make the Monk's thing really shine. The challenge like "There are 120 gumbas loose in the castle and each one has a piece of the key!" or something that would make the fact that you have infinite SoDs that aren't good a real blessing. Good for you.

My main issue, though, is with the transformation of Prestige Class character concepts in to Core Classes.


We aren't doing that. Every base class in the Dungeonomicon was at one time a base class in D&D. We just gave them mechanics that work.

As to making things prestige classes, a Prestige Class is generally available at level 6 or 7. And by that point you qualify for Mentorship and Leadership. Which means that anyone who could be in any Prestige Class could also run your town or retire. Seriously, what the fvck? Why do you need to be able to make a serious run for conquering the kingdom to be a Jester? That's retarded.

Prestige Classes don't mean "like a normal class but different", they mean "like a normal class, but only available to mid or high level characters". Pretty much every member of every prestige class is interacting on some level with the Wish economy. They are only available to characters who have already proven themselves.
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by User3 »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1152895211[/unixtime]]Within the standard gaming environment - where you have 1-6 encounters per day against opposition with an EL between +/-4 of your party's level - the Monk's ability to inflict a death effect with an ordinary attack at will is completely meaningless in the face of the Wizard's ability to throw more death effects than he needs to effect every opponent in a large area without rolling dice.


I guess, but seriously, any mage who stocks up on (and cast mosty) Save or Die spells usualy get killed by DM fiat before too long. At least, that's how I deal with game-breakers who deal with every character by uttering the words: "Make a Will save". Maybe it's just me.

Wail of the Banshee cast just one time is generally a bigger impact on any encounter than a Monk using his Dim Mak every round. The Monk is behind on death strikes, he only validates his existence with his other powers. His short range at-will teleporting, for example, can sometimes be quite useful.


Maybe it's my ability to stick by almost soley dungeon-based adventuring despite having the franchise move past it decades ago, but to me, teleporting at will is enough. Maybe I'm just a crazy old-schooler, but to me, 'bad old days' was the time when my father engaged me in the newly reseased 2nd Ed, playing modified 1st Ed. encounters. I'm probably the only person who actually, liked 2nd Ed. probably because it is what I grew up with, but I guess I need to drop some of my oldschool mentality. Also, I need to stop playing Stormbringer. Eh.

That being said, I'm sure that someday you'll encounter a dream challenge that will make the Monk's thing really shine. The challenge like "There are 120 gumbas loose in the castle and each one has a piece of the key!" or something that would make the fact that you have infinite SoDs that aren't good a real blessing. Good for you.


Once again, I guess. While I definately see the legitimacy of what you are saying, most of the time, stuff like that doesn't happen. As it stands, your Monk varient is a bit of a glass cannon anyways, so I guess it works.

We aren't doing that. Every base class in the Dungeonomicon was at one time a base class in D&D. We just gave them mechanics that work.


Yea, but thet shouldn't be, is my point. 2nd Ed was fine until the splatbooks ruined it by adding too many new rules, and the stupid kit sytem. Hell, the DMG had too many optional rules (that the players expected every DM to use) as it was, and I want to try to save 3.x from that problem, rather than fixing it by using 'patches' like a computer game.

As to making things prestige classes, a Prestige Class is generally available at level 6 or 7. And by that point you qualify for Mentorship and Leadership. Which means that anyone who could be in any Prestige Class could also run your town or retire. Seriously, what the fvck? Why do you need to be able to make a serious run for conquering the kingdom to be a Jester? That's retarded.


I see a huge difference, though, between being a Jester as a Prestige Class, and being a bard who juggles and tells jokes as his main Perform skill.

Prestige Classes don't mean "like a normal class but different", they mean "like a normal class, but only available to mid or high level characters". Pretty much every member of every prestige class is interacting on some level with the Wish economy. They are only available to characters who have already proven themselves.


I'm fairly against a Wish economy in general, on the principal that being a Wizard is difficult, and that being a high level mage is relegated to a few, elite people, and extra-planars who try not to have anything to do with 'Primes' in the first place. I like the AD&D system of thinking, that tere is a constant 'wartime' economy that screws up pricing on weapons and armor, due to whatever conflict the DM presents as central to his campaign. That way, thing work more-or-less like in real life, except that low-level creatures cancel eachother out, and high-level characters have better things to do than get involved with low-level characters, because they are busy killing high-level characters of different alignment.

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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by User3 »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1152951671[/unixtime]]
We aren't doing that. Every base class in the Dungeonomicon was at one time a base class in D&D. We just gave them mechanics that work.


Yea, but thet shouldn't be, is my point. 2nd Ed was fine until the splatbooks ruined it by adding too many new rules, and the stupid kit sytem. Hell, the DMG had too many optional rules (that the players expected every DM to use) as it was, and I want to try to save 3.x from that problem, rather than fixing it by using 'patches' like a computer game.


In D&D there are a bunch of different ways to generate a character.
One is to have a generic sort of class with a bunch of different options you can take, like Fighter or Wizard, which can fit a wide range of characters. Unfortunately, in D&D this can often result in two problems.
The first is that novice players are often swamped with different ideas, and in D&D you need to pick synergies. A 10th level fighter 'designed' by randomly picking a qualified for feat as each new slot opens is going to suck.
The second problem is that you're often forced to pay for versatility you'll never enjoy. Look at what a 1st-level fighter's feat can do compared to the class features of a barbarian, or even a ranger.

A solution to problems like that is adding classes like Barbarian, where you fill a niche role (raging, nonsocial tribal warrior). Barbarian could have been a prestige class, but Wizards decided to put it in the very first published book of 3e.

Another solution is prestige classing, but presige classes are like fighter feat options. If you want to take one you're forced to pay for benefits you may never enjoy. If the campaign ends before you get into the PrC, not only did you never get to play the character you wanted, but you were also probably hamstrung by the crappy feat and skill choices you were forced to take.

Prestige clases work better in d20 Modern. In d20M, your base class is really only 10 levels long, and something is needed to fill the void after that for people who want to continue their schtick rather than branch out.

So prestige classes are better for options which really require the level you take them at, like "warlord." There isn't a reason to have a "warlord" base class, because you can't be one at first level. "Elothar, Warrior of Bladereach" is the best PrC I've ever seen, because that take that concept one step further. A totally unique character has been established, and now gets level-appropriate abilities based on the current campaign.
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by dbb »

Nidhogg at [unixtime wrote:1152951671[/unixtime]]
I guess, but seriously, any mage who stocks up on (and cast mosty) Save or Die spells usualy get killed by DM fiat before too long. At least, that's how I deal with game-breakers who deal with every character by uttering the words: "Make a Will save". Maybe it's just me.


It's just you. If you're going to evaluate mechanics posted to this board under this standard, that's your right, but be aware that accepted wisdom here is that direct-damage spells suck and a Wizard who doesn't throw a lot of save-or-dies is a dumbass.

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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1152895211[/unixtime]]
Wail of the Banshee cast just one time is generally a bigger impact on any encounter than a Monk using his Dim Mak every round. The Monk is behind on death strikes, he only validates his existence with his other powers. His short range at-will teleporting, for example, can sometimes be quite useful.


Well, not quite. If you're facing off against only a single foe, or possibly two, wail of the banshee will give you 1-2 saves per round, while the monk's dim mak is going to have targets possibly saving 3-4 times (especially if the monk combines the extra full action or incorporeal touch with a save or die attack)

Alternately you could be looking at something like:
Grand master (incorp touch) + Master (Ref save or be helpless, will save or be panicked). This would effectively force probably 6+ saves each round.
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by squirrelloid »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1152951671[/unixtime]]
I'm fairly against a Wish economy in general, on the principal that being a Wizard is difficult, and that being a high level mage is relegated to a few, elite people, and extra-planars who try not to have anything to do with 'Primes' in the first place. I like the AD&D system of thinking, that tere is a constant 'wartime' economy that screws up pricing on weapons and armor, due to whatever conflict the DM presents as central to his campaign. That way, thing work more-or-less like in real life, except that low-level creatures cancel eachother out, and high-level characters have better things to do than get involved with low-level characters, because they are busy killing high-level characters of different alignment.


Unfortunately, it only takes 1 11th level wizard to make the Wish economy a reality. Planar Binding is just that good. And i'm not even convinced it takes that long.

Wish isn't the only problem with the economy, the inconceivable volume of gold required for large purchases is totally unmanageable. You're literally carrying solid gold temples to the store. At which point Frank and Ks solution is really elegant, in that it creates a reasonable medium for exchange and solves the problem of the wish based economy in one swoop.
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by Essence »

Just a totally random logic point:

I'm fairly against a Wish economy in general, on the principal that being a Wizard is difficult, and that being a high level mage is relegated to a few, elite people, and extra-planars who try not to have anything to do with 'Primes' in the first place.


There are, definitionally, an infinite number of Outsiders out there. Even within the Abyss alone, if only one in a googleplex of demons was a powerful Wizard interested in the Prime material planes -- there's an infinite number of powerful Outsider Wizards interested in the Prime Material planes.

The Wish-based economy, while it may not be to your liking, is literally logically dictated by the terms of the game.
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Re: Bad Math

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Sorry Frank + K, but you guys are totally off on the penny to CP weight ratio. And not like a little off for not accounting for various compositions of modern pennies or something like that. No siree, you guys are way off.





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Post by User3 »

Well, the problem, as I see it, is that the problems are mostly in fluff, and in game mechanic issues that many people turn a blind eye to.

Versitility sucks because Wizards doesn't know how to avoid makng it too powerful without breaking out the nerf bats. If the Fighter got an array of abilities to choose from each level, you couldgive them abilities that are similar to the Barbarian's, and do away with that class altogether. As it stands, that wouldn't work, because Fighters get feats instead of class abilities, and if Rage was a feat, then Druids would find a way to abuse it. The solution is to redesign the Fighter, not add more classes. As for the 'newbies will be overwhelmed' thing- so what? Newbies are overwhelmed anyways, the solution isn't to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

The problem with direct damage spells is just that- a problem. As it stands, the only good spells are battlefield control, and all-or-nothing spells. I have no problem with battlfield control spells, because there are no intrinsic problems with them, but all-or-nothings (including Save-or-Die spells, as well as most Enchantments) can just plain make the game unfun. Direct damage spells need to be fixed, because Evokers are supposed to be the bad-asses of the Wizards, and right now they aren't doing a whole lot of bad-assery. Giving everyone Save-or-Die abilities will only make it worse when someone decides to go for flavor over machanics and make a blaster mage.

Hauling ungodly ammounts of gold around isn't a problem if you just cut out the middle man and buy big magic items with little magic items. That way, minor items are bought, and major items are bartered. It's a less elegent, but much easier way of dealing with a problem than introducing brand-new mechanics for extra-planar currency (although I will definately still keep the soul-trading fluff that Frank and K introduced, because it's cool. Really, really cool- and sometimes coolness is enough).

The problem with the Outsiders is simple: an infinate number of them is just plain balls. Thats a fluff thing, and is quite easily fixed with a wave of the hand, and flick of the magic DM WandTM. Sure it gives the setting a slightly more epic feel, but come on, it just makes things really hard to justify.
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Re: Dungeonomicon

Post by RandomCasualty »

Essence at [unixtime wrote:1152981886[/unixtime]]
There are, definitionally, an infinite number of Outsiders out there. Even within the Abyss alone, if only one in a googleplex of demons was a powerful Wizard interested in the Prime material planes -- there's an infinite number of powerful Outsider Wizards interested in the Prime Material planes.

The Wish-based economy, while it may not be to your liking, is literally logically dictated by the terms of the game.


Actually it's fairly easy to deal with the whole infinity thing, since you can also just say there's an infinite number of prime material planes.

Also, just because a plane is infinite doesn't mean that its occupants are, or that it is also infinitely diverse. Sure, there is infinite space, but that space could be barren fields, magma pits, or maybe it's just taken up by manes and fiendish rats.
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Re:

Post by squirrelloid »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1153002617[/unixtime]] Giving everyone Save-or-Die abilities will only make it worse when someone decides to go for flavor over machanics and make a blaster mage.



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Re:

Post by dbb »

Save-or-die spells (and abilities) are very well suited for a game where fights are supposed to be fast and easily resolved, and where keeping information on the state of a combatant is impractical -- such as a mass combat system, which D&D originally descended from. Indeed, at some typical tabletop miniatures levels (HP = 1, Damage = 1), there is no real difference between direct damage and save-or-die.

However, this mechanic does not mesh well with a system that expects heavy time effort into individual characters and carries with it an expectation of fights that will be detailed and permit some richness of tactical options.

D&D today is much more the latter than the former. Save-or-die spells are an anachronistic vestige of something the system is no longer meant to do, the roleplaying equivalent of the human appendix.

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Re:

Post by DP »

What could detect a monk with the incorperal and total concealment abilities?
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Re:

Post by The_Matthew »

DP at [unixtime wrote:1153082513[/unixtime]]What could detect a monk with the incorperal and total concealment abilities?

Well, True Seeing cast on someone with some ability to negate concealment would get them.
RC wrote:Also, just because a plane is infinite doesn't mean that its occupants are, or that it is also infinitely diverse. Sure, there is infinite space, but that space could be barren fields, magma pits, or maybe it's just taken up by manes and fiendish rats.


Actually you are dealing with an infinite amount of occupants, because the way demons act they will go and dominate any section of their plane that they can, even if it is a barren waste with absolutly nothing, ever. This comes from the fact that demons live in a society where you are either the ruler or screwed.
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Re:

Post by DP »

True seeing alone doesn't negate concealment, and I'm not sure that it applies to any sense beyond other than sight. So blindsight or blindsense or tremmorsense may not interact with true seeing. I'm not being countrary, I just really don't know how or if true seeing interacts with other senses. But being able to "focus vision into the ethereal plane" would not necessarily reveal something that has total concealment there. I'm not sure.
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Re:

Post by Username17 »

DP at [unixtime wrote:1153082513[/unixtime]]What could detect a monk with the incorperal and total concealment abilities?


Anyone with a Spot check. Full Concealment doesn't make you undetectable, it just makes you have +20 to Hide checks unless you also have a blocked line of sight between you and the opponent.

But also, True Seeing bypasses the Concealment effects, as does Blinsight. Characters with Scent can also detect the Monk (unless he also benefits from pass without trace - fear the Forest Gnome Monk).

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