The Gaming Den

Bigode wrote:Assuming that TWF's a feat balanced with the other feats, you aren't at a loss for not using it. That said, let me laugh at the notion.

Since TWF is a powerful feat because it is a force multiplier, a slam-using Monk would need to have something to compensate. I have trouble seeing what that would be.

Yugo wrote:

Bigode wrote:Assuming that TWF's a feat balanced with the other feats, you aren't at a loss for not using it. That said, let me laugh at the notion.

Since TWF is a powerful feat because it is a force multiplier, a slam-using Monk would need to have something to compensate. I have trouble seeing what that would be.

Honestly, the problem is that in Tome rules TWFing is inherently superior to any other form of melee fighting, possible exception for really good wildshapes.

TWFing is just flat out better then anything else. Yes that means a TWFing Monk or Bow using Monk are the only types of characters that actually keep up with Tome Fighters and Barbarians.

But meh, they came before Tome Fighters. I doubt even Frank/K knew how ridiculously awesome Tome Fighters were going to be before they were.

Now, were I building a Monk, most styles would involve using other weapons, and I would build an Archer type, who was everything keyed off of Wis.

At level 11 shooting 10 arrows each forcing a DC 29 ref save for helpless and fort save or stunned, also doing okayish damage, and that's within hundreds of feet?

Yeah, that's good enough for me.

The Tome Fighter isn't that awesome. Their big ability, essentially, lets them slow down one creature (passively).

Monks can get perfectly good fighting style abilities with their slam attack. Remember that if a fighting style is to give two abilities from its highest tier, then its abilities must both be either weapon-independent or slam only. So while a mobility style (+4 dodge AC + move through occupied spaces w/o AoO, for instance) is perfectly fine no matter what you have in your hand, a smashing style (stun + ignore DR and hardness) can only be done with your slam, and this proactive-defensive style (AoO when attacked + stun on attack + Horde Breaker and Improved Trip feats) only gives you the stun with your slam. Sure, when you're going all-out you'll want stun + with weapons + TWF + two pair nunchucks, but that's only one of many options.

You can also build a wis-based TWFer, or a wis-based slammer, using Insightful Strike.

Kaelik wrote:Honestly, the problem is that in Tome rules TWFing is inherently superior to any other form of melee fighting, possible exception for really good wildshapes.

TWFing is just flat out better then anything else. Yes that means a TWFing Monk or Bow using Monk are the only types of characters that actually keep up with Tome Fighters and Barbarians.

But meh, they came before Tome Fighters. I doubt even Frank/K knew how ridiculously awesome Tome Fighters were going to be before they were.

Even the pre-Tome TWF was pretty good. It was an essential feat for the flask-throwing Rogue.

Now, were I building a Monk, most styles would involve using other weapons, and I would build an Archer type, who was everything keyed off of Wis.

At level 11 shooting 10 arrows each forcing a DC 29 ref save for helpless and fort save or stunned, also doing okayish damage, and that's within hundreds of feet?

I don't know how you would shoot 10 arrows per round at level 11, but I was thinking of playing like a Rogue: a TWF flask-throwing Monk dealing Con damage or movement damage. But this brings back to another one of my points: Why don't I just do a one level dip into the Monk to get this ability and spend the other 2-7 levels in Samurai or Fighter? The additional abilities you gain by staying as a Monk don't seem to be that great of assets.

IGTN wrote:The Tome Fighter isn't that awesome. Their big ability, essentially, lets them slow down one creature (passively).

Monks can get perfectly good fighting style abilities with their slam attack. Remember that if a fighting style is to give two abilities from its highest tier, then its abilities must both be either weapon-independent or slam only. So while a mobility style (+4 dodge AC + move through occupied spaces w/o AoO, for instance) is perfectly fine no matter what you have in your hand, a smashing style (stun + ignore DR and hardness) can only be done with your slam, and this proactive-defensive style (AoO when attacked + stun on attack + Horde Breaker and Improved Trip feats) only gives you the stun with your slam. Sure, when you're going all-out you'll want stun + with weapons + TWF + two pair nunchucks, but that's only one of many options.

You can also build a wis-based TWFer, or a wis-based slammer, using Insightful Strike.

The Tome Fighter gets a feat every other level in addition to his other stuff and his normal feats, and Tome feats are actually worth class abilities. That's the point, Tome Fighter without Tome feats, not even as good as a Dungenomicon Monk, with Races of War feats, much better.

Yugo wrote:

At level 11 shooting 10 arrows each forcing a DC 29 ref save for helpless and fort save or stunned, also doing okayish damage, and that's within hundreds of feet?

I don't know how you would shoot 10 arrows per round at level 11, but I was thinking of playing like a Rogue: a TWF flask-throwing Monk dealing Con damage or movement damage. But this brings back to another one of my points: Why don't I just do a one level dip into the Monk to get this ability and spend the other 2-7 levels in Samurai or Fighter? The additional abilities you gain by staying as a Monk don't seem to be that great of assets.

Because with a one level dip you'd just have the Fort save, and provoking half as many saves, and all of them against the strongest defense instead of arguably the weakest (at least before level 15ish), that's a significant tradeoff. Especially since it's just Stun, and Stun is easy to get immunity too, easier then helpless.

You also lose all the versatility of getting various other effects to activate when you need them. And some of the Monks class features, including the actual ability to stack effects. (So you are doing con damage and provoking two saves.)

Kaelik wrote:Because with a one level dip you'd just have the Fort save, and provoking half as many saves, and all of them against the strongest defense instead of arguably the weakest (at least before level 15ish), that's a significant tradeoff. Especially since it's just Stun, and Stun is easy to get immunity too, easier then helpless. You also lose all the versatility of getting various other effects to activate when you need them. And some of the Monks class features, including the actual ability to stack effects. (So you are doing con damage and provoking two saves.)

If the special power I get from the one level dip is Con damage (applicable with weapons), then the combination with Samurai's doing massive amounts of AoO is pretty amazing. While sticking with Monk classes would allow you to stack two Fighting Styles at level 6, you can only do it once a day and hence is only good for one encounter. And while having more abilities adds more options, they're relatively weak options when not stacked with the better quality powers.

Note: I still talking about character levels 8 and under.

Yugo wrote:If the special power I get from the one level dip is Con damage (applicable with weapons), then the combination with Samurai's doing massive amounts of AoO is pretty amazing. While sticking with Monk classes would allow you to stack two Fighting Styles at level 6, you can only do it once a day and hence is only good for one encounter. And while having more abilities adds more options, they're relatively weak options when not stacked with the better quality powers.

Note: I still talking about character levels 8 and under.

I don't understand what the problem is. If you are admitting that Higher level Monk styles are more valuable, or at least as valuable in a different way to being a Samurai, what is the problem. Can't you just admit that level 8 is a bad Monk level and level 9 is an awesome Monk level and be happy with that?

Hell, My example Monk probably gets more AoOs then Samurais, since he can take them with his ranged weapon any time anyone provokes within 60ft, and each AoO fires two arrows.

My point is that Monk levels up to and including level 8 are somewhat weak, therefore there's a balance problem.

Also, explain how you fire two arrows per AoO. I assume your character is level 11+ with Sniper and Point Blank Shot. What's your third ability?

Yugo wrote:My point is that Monk levels up to and including level 8 are somewhat weak, therefore there's a balance problem.

And Sorcerer levels from 2-3 are shit too. But 4 is okay. And the fact that a level 1 Monk/Samurai 7 is better then a level 8 Monk is balanced by the fact that a Level 9 Monk is superior to or equal to a level 1 Monk/Level 8 Samurai.

Yes it's not ideal. Yes we would prefer it not to be so. But sometimes you just have to fucking accept that perfect is beyond us and that it's okay for one character to be slightly better at a specific level.

Yugo wrote:Also, explain how you fire two arrows per AoO. I assume your character is level 11+ with Sniper and Point Blank Shot. What's your third ability?

I don't know what you mean by third ability, but I have a Master fighting style that provokes two saves and applies to weapons, including my +1 Splitting Longbow.

Similarly I have Zen Archery, PBS, Sniper's Shot, and probably Intuitive assault if I think I'll ever make it to level 16. Also Rapid Shot if non Tome feats are allowed, and haste effect.

Thus my stats look something like:

Wis 18 +2 racial + 2 age + 2 level +2 or 4 item.
Con some number
Int another number
Str 10
Dex/Cha no one cares.

Yugo wrote:My point is that Monk levels up to and including level 8 are somewhat weak, therefore there's a balance problem.

Also, explain how you fire two arrows per AoO. I assume your character is level 11+ with Sniper and Point Blank Shot. What's your third ability?

Grab an Offense sytle (con damage + affect weapons: use a bow or slams), a defense style (+4 AC, +4 Saves) and a movement style (speed + provoke no AoOs).

That's a bunch of styles that will be useful at nearly every level.

Kaelik wrote:I don't know what you mean by third ability, but I have a Master fighting style that provokes two saves and applies to weapons, including my +1 Splitting Longbow.

Oh, you're using a magic item special ability. Ok, that clears it up.

Judging__Eagle wrote:Grab an Offense sytle (con damage + affect weapons: use a bow or slams), a defense style (+4 AC, +4 Saves) and a movement style (speed + provoke no AoOs).

That's a bunch of styles that will be useful at nearly every level.

While I see the advantage of rushing in on the first turn using a movement style (and make a weak attack) and fighting with an offensive style the next, the defensive style doesn't work so well. The turn that you're using a defensive style, your offense becomes relatively mediocre. And when you cease to be a big threat, your defensive capability loses value since there would be a lot less incentive to attack you.

Yugo wrote:While I see the advantage of rushing in on the first turn using a movement style (and make a weak attack) and fighting with an offensive style the next, the defensive style doesn't work so well. The turn that you're using a defensive style, your offense becomes relatively mediocre. And when you cease to be a big threat, your defensive capability loses value since there would be a lot less incentive to attack you.

Depending on whether a GM would actually describe the monk as changing stance (not a given), the monk's actually good at drawing fire first and then becoming exceptionally resistant to it. Though now that I talked about it, I kinda wonder why it wasn't made immediate in some capacity, even at high levels.

Yugo wrote:

Judging__Eagle wrote:Grab an Offense sytle (con damage + affect weapons: use a bow or slams), a defense style (+4 AC, +4 Saves) and a movement style (speed + provoke no AoOs).

That's a bunch of styles that will be useful at nearly every level.

While I see the advantage of rushing in on the first turn using a movement style (and make a weak attack) and fighting with an offensive style the next, the defensive style doesn't work so well. The turn that you're using a defensive style, your offense becomes relatively mediocre. And when you cease to be a big threat, your defensive capability loses value since there would be a lot less incentive to attack you.

In the games I play and run, if you run up and bash the monsters for significant damage, they have no way of magically knowing that you turn off the offense and turn on the defense in the next round. Switching styles would be a very useful tactic, it seems to me.

Talisman wrote:In the games I play and run, if you run up and bash the monsters for significant damage, they have no way of magically knowing that you turn off the offense and turn on the defense in the next round. Switching styles would be a very useful tactic, it seems to me.

How about you read my post, and consider that perhaps switching from the Demon Swallow Stance to the Drunken Hummingbird Fu might actually be noticeable?

Talisman wrote: In the games I play and run, if you run up and bash the monsters for significant damage, they have no way of magically knowing that you turn off the offense and turn on the defense in the next round. Switching styles would be a very useful tactic, it seems to me.

Well honestly, I think the DM should describe the attack. If the guy is turtling up, a trained fighter should be able to spot that. He may not know the exact amount in mechanical terms, but he should know if the guy has switched to a heavy defensive style. It's not like he can't see him fighting and going defensive isn't an immediate action, it's something you do on your regular action.

Question here.

I've recently adopted the Tome revision of Polymorph in may game. I was thinking of changing the druid's wildshape into just Tome Polymorph Self. I did notice that with the CR-3 limit, that a druid can change into potentially better forms earlier. Since there's no spellcasting or buffs carrying over, and also taking into account the 1 splatbook druid spell per spellcasting level rule, is that too good?

I think not, because the majority of the power in the druid shape shift was the ability to carry over spells - and the power at low levels. Because of the CR-3 limit, the power at early levels is turned down, and the utility of spells like animal growth is sharply reduced.

Our group tried out the revised Polymorph rules, and we all found them very satisfying. You get what people want when they turn into things, and I don't have to deal with Voltron as a PC.

What happens if a non-cleric takes levels in Defiler of Temples? Can a druid or a paladin get a domain? How do you work out domain powers keyed off of cleric levels for people without cleric levels?

Grek wrote:What happens if a non-cleric takes levels in Defiler of Temples? Can a druid or a paladin get a domain? How do you work out domain powers keyed off of cleric levels for people without cleric levels?

A druid or paladin can very much get a domain, which gives you all the spells known of that domain, as well as the domain power, which common sense would dictate is computed off character level.

Or at least, that's how I've always done it.

Grek wrote:What happens if a non-cleric takes levels in Defiler of Temples? Can a druid or a paladin get a domain? How do you work out domain powers keyed off of cleric levels for people without cleric levels?

D&D does indeed allow non-cleric casters to get domains. They are essentially more useful to non-clerics because you always have just one Domain Slot of each level whether you have one domain or seventeen.

As for level dependent domain abilities - the official rules are weirdly bullshit confused about that. They've said officially that only actual levels of Cleric count for those things, but their actual character examples with prestige classes benefit from them. So the most reasonable explanation is that it's just your Caster Level. I mean fuck, Wearer of Purple gives you a domain that grants Turning. You don't even have to be a Divine Caster for all of those.

-Username17

I need a bit of a clarification on Death Attack. It states "An Assassin may spend a full-round action to study an opponent who would be denied their Dexterity bonus if she instead attacked that target. If she does so, her next attack is a Death Attack if she makes it within 1 round." Which is cool, I get that. Later, though, it says "A Death Attack inflicts a number of extra dice of damage equal to her Assassin level plus two dice, but only if the target is denied its Dexterity Bonus to AC against that attack." If I am reading that correctly it would seem that if you successfully study, but when you attack they have their Dex to AC, that you actually get to make a death attack that... deals no extra damage. Is this correct?

Utterfail wrote:I need a bit of a clarification on Death Attack. It states "An Assassin may spend a full-round action to study an opponent who would be denied their Dexterity bonus if she instead attacked that target. If she does so, her next attack is a Death Attack if she makes it within 1 round." Which is cool, I get that. Later, though, it says "A Death Attack inflicts a number of extra dice of damage equal to her Assassin level plus two dice, but only if the target is denied its Dexterity Bonus to AC against that attack." If I am reading that correctly it would seem that if you successfully study, but when you attack they have their Dex to AC, that you actually get to make a death attack that... deals no extra damage. Is this correct?

I'm not sure what difference it makes for the attack to be a death attack that deals no damage vs. being a normal attack. Basically, your damage boost fails if the target gets their Dex bonus back after you study but before your next attack.

-Username17

I think I just found the Teleport Trap spell.

Scattering Trap, Player's Handbook II.

You designate several five-foot squares and anyone who steps on them must make a Reflex save or be teleported 1d6 squares in a random direction.