Tome of Fiends

[Bigode]

On flavor: I'd consider that "channeling the Lower Planes" would be available for everyone to learn. Though now there's the warlock for that.

Extendability: OK, assuming healthy influxes of Str and natural weapons, would the brute be extendable to 20 levels (though it'd be assumed that some feats would go towards weird abilities)? That might simulate most magical beast-like creatures pretty well. And, would a 20-level conduit without the sorcerer spellcasting, that kept getting spheres (and presumably other features to some extent), be balanceable?

[K]

On flavor: I'd consider that "channeling the Lower Planes" would be available for everyone to learn. Though now there's the warlock for that.

Extendability: OK, assuming healthy influxes of Str and natural weapons, would the brute be extendable to 20 levels (though it'd be assumed that some feats would go towards weird abilities)? That might simulate most magical beast-like creatures pretty well. And, would a 20-level conduit without the sorcerer spellcasting, that kept getting spheres (and presumably other features to some extent), be balanceable?

True Fiend would be the best way to extend Fiendish Brute because it grants DR and Spheres.

Spheres are better than "more Fiendish feats" because after a while most abilities are just like spell-likes anyway, so you might as well just get spell-likes.

[JonSetanta]

Eh, I'm with Bigode on this one. Brute needs either an extension, more Fiend feats (for more killin), or access to some generic "high level bruiser monster" class.

[CatharzGodfoot]

"High level bruiser monster"? Aside from something like the aforementioned Brute/True Fiend, a high-level bruiser is just a roadblock. You need to branch out from true brutishness to be an effective high-level combatant.

[K]

"High level bruiser monster"? Aside from something like the aforementioned Brute/True Fiend, a high-level bruiser is just a roadblock. You need to branch out from true brutishness to be an effective high-level combatant.

A high-level bruiser is using effects that are indistinguishable from spells, so he might as well be using spells.

The classes were deliberately made ten levels long to force people to branch out. It was assumed that the natural synergy of the Fiend classes would draw people to take them when they made the choice to branch out, and was the driving reason to make access to Sphere powers based on character level and not class level.

But, if you wanted a definite nonmagical feel, the Tome Barbarian would do some impressive damage combined with the potential number of natural attacks a Brute can have.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Is the "earth glide" 1st-level ability of the Stone sphere the supernatural ability or some spell of the same name?

[Bigode]

I wanted to see whether "sphere user" and "magically altered beast" were extensible to level 20 on their own, so ...

BEAST

Hit Die: d12.
Attack: Poor.
Fortitude: Good.
Reflex: Good.
Will: Poor.
Skill Points: 4.
Proficiencies: Armor spikes.
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Natural Weapons: A beast has 2 claw attacks, one attached to each arm (or its two front legs if it is a quadruped; if it has no limbs at all, it grows two vestigial arms that have claws at the end). These claws are natural weapons and inflict damage normal for the creature’s size.
Natural Armor: A beast has a natural armor bonus of 3 plus its class level.
Ability Score Boost: At every odd-numbered level, the beast’s physical abilities improve, as if it had gained several character levels; every time the beast gains an attribute boost, two of its physical abilities increase by 1.
Bonus Feat: At every even-numbered level, the beast gains a monstrous feat for which it meets the prerequisites.
Imbued Magic (Su): At 11th level and every two levels thereafter, the beast is permanently imbued with a spell effect. To be imbued, a spell must have a duration proportional to the caster level used, either a personal or touch range or an area centered on the caster (in which case it does affect the surrounding area), and be possible to learn by a character four levels lower than the beast's character level. The spell affects the beast continuously, except if ended by a reason specific to its effect; it can be suppressed or reactivated as a standard action.

---

CONDUIT

Hit Die: d6.
Attack: Average.
Fortitude: Poor.
Reflex: Poor.
Will: Good.
Skill Points: 2.
Proficiencies: Simple, martial and three exotic weapons, light armor.
Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Profession (Wis), Speak Language (-), and Spellcraft (Int).

Sphere: The conduit gains basic access to a sphere at every odd-numbered level. If the conduit selects a sphere that he already has basic access to, he upgrades it to advanced access. If he already had advanced access, he gains expert access.
Immunity: The conduit gains immunity to one energy type (or another kind of effect roughly as common).
Enhanced Sphere Access: At 2nd level, the conduit gains extra uses of the spell-like abilities that he gains from his spheres. The conduit gains a number of extra uses of any spell-like ability equal to half the difference between his character level and the minimum character level to use the spell-like ability (rounded up). Upon gaining this ability, the conduit immediately gains a number of extra monstrous feats equal to the number of spheres he has expert access to. If he ever gains expert access to another sphere, he also gains an extra monstrous feat.
Monstrous Feat: At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the conduit gains a monstrous feat for which he meets the prerequisites.
Skill Aptitude: At 6th level and every four levels thereafter, the conduit gains either a +10 bonus to a skill (no skill can be selected more than once for this bonus), or a skill feat for which he meets the prerequisites.

[CatharzGodfoot]

BEAST

Fuck yeah.

Imbued Magic (Su): At 11th level and every two levels thereafter, the beast is permanently imbued with a spell effect. To be imbued, a spell must have a duration proportional to the caster level used, either a personal or touch range or an area centered on the caster (in which case it does affect the surrounding area), and be possible to learn by a character four levels lower than the beast's character level. The spell affects the beast continuously, except if ended by a reason specific to its effect; it can be suppressed or reactivated as a standard action.

This should probably be to the exclusion of the feats. So many fiendish feats are already spell effects..
Something like 'Beast Power: Fiendish feats or..'
Oh, and continuous supernatural effects can normally be reactivated as a free action.

CONDUIT

Nice. Finally a way to get two or three spheres at will.
Which remind me: Was there ever any fix for 'overpowered at-will high level abilities'?

[JonSetanta]

Imbued looks like it just might work, Bigode. There are in fact short-range Teleport effects with duration and other horribly offensive spells that could be made "constant", but it also seems that True Fiends should have at least 1 or more of those too.
Balor's body flames, for instance.

[CatharzGodfoot]

For the balor's body flames, you take the shpere of fire and elemental aura fiendish feat.

[Bigode]

Fuck yeah.

Glad to see the enthusiasm. And yeah, that was meant to make "tarrasque" (let's say a less stupid version) as much as "some fiend" (In fact, what fiend doesn't have SLAs?).

This should probably be to the exclusion of the feats. So many fiendish feats are already spell effects..
Something like 'Beast Power: Fiendish feats or..'

The thing is: we know giving just ability boosts at odd levels doesn't work; so, would you advise giving beast power every level higher than 10 to either a feat or an effect? I was in doubt about whether that'd open too much dumpster-diving.

Oh, and continuous supernatural effects can normally be reactivated as a free action.

I made a deliberate exception, to keep spells that discharge by themselves from being used faster than normal. If that has some problem or I need to word it better, I'm all ears.

Nice. Finally a way to get two or three spheres at will.

Well, there already was: with just the ToF, conduit of the lower planes 9/true fiend 4 gave 2; and, if you're willing to consider Cielingcat's warlock, warlock 15/conduit of the lower planes 5 gave 3. BTW, I do have some suspicion that 3 spheres at-will (not particularly my class, any way to get them) has some druid syndrome, but that should go away with stuff such as that under the last quote.

Which remind me: Was there ever any fix for 'overpowered at-will high level abilities'?

2, in theory: a) use Frank's later admission that he'd limit the newest abilities to 5/day (or even mine, where I'm considering to apply that to the 3 newest abilities, or even, for an extreme approach, a modified version of the one proposed by Seerow at WotC: advanced access doesn't give 3/day to the 3 newest, and expert access gives unlimited access only to the 3 first abilities, and 3/day to the intermediaries - Seerow's original wasn't worth considering, since it breaks the original design intent), and b) go ahead and fix said spells (we know F&K had more fixing ahead, that wasn't done), or substitute them (for an example, I'm considering, for my games, to have wail of the banshee require 2 saves: one for panic and another for death if the first's failed).

Imbued looks like it just might work, Bigode. There are in fact short-range Teleport effects with duration and other horribly offensive spells that could be made "constant", but it also seems that True Fiends should have at least 1 or more of those too.
Balor's body flames, for instance.

The thing was that the true fiend's already an effective warrior-mage, while the beast was a challenge on how to keep something possibly without even opposable thumbs on track through high levels. Also, yeah, the iconic abilities either are or could be feats open to other characters.

Last but not least: would there still be interest in the types-as-classes rules? I have some ideas for them ...

[JonSetanta]

I forgot about Elemental Aura feat. But I meant in a generic sense with any duration/emanation effect that could be radiating from the fiend's body, should be possible.

Last but not least: would there still be interest in the types-as-classes rules? I have some ideas for them ...

Always interested.
There are also quite a few members here itching for a Celestial version of all these racial classes, too.

[fbmf]

What are the mechanics of trapping a soul in a gem for use as currency? Do you just have to use TRAP THE SOUL?

Game On,
fbmf

[JonSetanta]

Trapping souls:
1. As by spell (as you mention Magic Jar, as well as Trap The Soul and Soul Bind spells, all relatively high level)
2. Plot. It's a copout but easiest. Potential imbalance in setting if just about anyone can do it by holding an item over a body and saying "Get in."
3. Class ability. There is a PrC that can do this, I think it's in the Forgotten Realm setting. Some kind of assassin.
4. Tug a Bag of Holding around with Devourers in it.

IMO what we need is a statement on exactly what a soul is in D&D.
Is it a living thing?
Is it an object?
What are its dimensions and composition?
Can you sense it in every way, and on what planes can you interact with it?

Until that's taken care of, stating that you've "put a soul in an object" is pretty sketchy.

[Judging__Eagle]

There's a rogue PrC here in ToF that also steals souls.

Thinaum also works.

[Maxus]

There's a rogue PrC here in ToF that also steals souls.

Thinaum also works.

Also, a high-level Boneblade Reaper traps the souls of slain enemies in his 'deathscribed flesh', and he can release one as a standard action.

[CatharzGodfoot]

How would you suggest applying the zombie template to a fiendish brute or the like? My gut instinct is to treat monster class levels as racial HD and fiendish feats as racial abilities. Otherwise, things could get very odd when you try to animate a dead demon (which isn't really fair to the players).

[Username17]

How would you suggest applying the zombie template to a fiendish brute or the like? My gut instinct is to treat monster class levels as racial HD and fiendish feats as racial abilities. Otherwise, things could get very odd when you try to animate a dead demon (which isn't really fair to the players).

That sounds reasonable.

Of course, that would make most Fiendish Brutes kind of better as zombies - but that template was always spectacularly unfair in precisely that way anyhow.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

Thanks. I've got a newbie player in a city-based campaign where just about every enemy is human. One of his character's main shticks is animating zombies (fire mage/conduit), so it seems fair to occasionally use things which will be spectacularly unfair to his benefit rather than the usual suckage.

Although once he's got an animated bulette mount and a dread warrior bodyguard I may be singing a different tune.

[Manxome]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that a SLA that mimicks a spell with a long casting time (such as, say, sympathy from a Sphere) is usable as a standard action by default, but the rule I can find in the SRD at the moment says:

Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description

(Emphasis Added)

So did I make up the part about shortening casting time, or is there some subtlety I'm missing?

[Talisman]

Well, my copy of the Monster Manual says:

Special Abilities:
Spell-Like: (...) Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

@ Manxome and Talisman, If I remember correctly this is what happened:

In the Dnd 3.0 rulebooks, the Dnd 3.5 rulebooks, and the Dnd 3.5 online errata, using a SLA is a standard action, unless otherwise noted, as Talisman stated.

Then at the tail end of 2007, WotC released the Rules Compendium. This new rulebook has the newest "official errata." I haven't read it, but they seemingly 'pulled a 3.5' again in one book. In other words, they subtly changed many rules without concern for balance, for no reason. As far as I can tell, almost nobody uses the changes in the Rules Compendium. The SRD then incorporated these changes.

So, you will have to decide what rules you want to use, and what has primacy. I myself, and everyone I know in real life uses the core rulebooks, and have not even glanced at the RC.

Manxome, if you just use the SRD, you will have new rules peppered at you at random that are in contradiction with the rules that the gaming community at large uses. For the most part it is identical, but as you just found, there are discrepancies.

[Bigode]

Then at the tail end of 2007, WotC released the Rules Compendium. This new rulebook has the newest "official errata." I haven't read it, but they seemingly 'pulled a 3.5' again in one book. In other words, they subtly changed many rules without concern for balance, for no reason. As far as I can tell, almost nobody uses the changes in the Rules Compendium. The SRD then incorporated these changes.

LOL, the one time they updated the SRD after a ... long time (as opposed to, say, including incarnum, which'd become a lot better without the flavor - alignment FTL) was one mostly unsolicited (by which I mean, there was no group of people asking for it AFAICT, unlike incarnum or orientals) and explicitly a downgrade? But, no offense intended, do have a source? And, do you know if d20srd.org did as well?

P.S.: I do remember what Manxome says being said at some part of the actual books (WotC contradicting itself in one book wouldn't be strange, right? They managed to do it in one page with the SR lowering issue ...) - will dig for it.

[Judging__Eagle]

But, if you wanted a definite nonmagical feel, the Tome Barbarian would do some impressive damage combined with the potential number of natural attacks a Brute can have.

That works?

I thought that the Barb Rage Dice only worked with BaB derived attacks only, making that not really possible.

[Bigode]

That works?

I thought that the Barb Rage Dice only worked with BaB derived attacks only, making that not really possible.

It "works" in the same way you use TWF on barbarians, which means "you get another crapload of damage, but they're counter-synergistic" - and yeah, TWF's counter-synergistic with rage dice due to TWF penalties applying to all attacks (though likely to much smaller extent than rage dice + a BAB that'll ... eventually grow into average).