Tome of Fiends

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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by User3 »

Endovior, according to the hypertext SRD I'm looking at, storm of vengeance is a spell of the conjuration (summoning) school, in spite of how the spell description begins "this spell creates...". Regardless, it is level 19, I think, before the summoner can pull that off, with their advanced learning, and can be easily fixed by making the spell a creation spell, if you think it matters. Really, I'm not sure 16d6 continual damage of various types to everything in a static area is that great to make that long - it's 3 rounds before you get serious damage, and I suspect that's probably enough for most high-level threats to get out of the way in time, and it's not like you really want to stay in the storm for days at a time permanently anyways, probably. If the combat is not over before you get through the first five rounds, I'd be sort of surprised... You could totally like destroy some area with this, but you wouldn't actually kill most people, i suspect, more than a full 10 rounds of it normally would...

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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by Username17 »

Yeah I guess you can put up 24 hour storms of vengeance as a 19th level character. You can liquidate cities possibly even better than you could at 18th level by opening up gates that connect directly to the Elemental Plane of Fire (or Water).

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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by Endovior »

Eh, I suppose it is. Disregard previous comment. However, this isn't really viable; note that it has a duration of concentration (max 10), so Persistent would mean you could spend all day at it, when you've really got more profitable things to do with your time.

Regarding the 'Empire of Peons'; you're right, it doesn't do you any good if you're playing Dungeons and Dragons. However, if you're playing Money and Merchandise, like most merchants (particularly those who are running major businesses like transplanar shipping and portal monopolies), then an empire of peons is a multiplication to the amount of goods you can move, and hence to your profits. Of course, you'll need some few higher-level characters to work as guards and such; this is the source of 'caravan guard' type adventures.
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by shirak »

The Sphere of Dominion allows you to make a permanent Storm of Vengeance once a month. How does that work, exactly? Does the spell run through it's loop forever? Does it get stuck in a particular round? More questions as I come up with them.
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by JonSetanta »

That L1 "Fireball" in the Pyre Sphere is bugging me, among other misplaced spell levels. Will this be approached?

I'm anal about that, tho. Bard pisses me off, with their 1-6 scale yet being as powerful as a Wiz/Sorc's 1-9. Messes up many things such as Metamagic interaction, inherent spell level (some Abjurations obserce spell level and respond accordingly) and saving throw. Shoulda been standardized!
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by Catharz »

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1177131452[/unixtime]]That L1 "Fireball" in the Pyre Sphere is bugging me, among other misplaced spell levels. Will this be approached?


They're level-appropriate spell-like abilities. Fireball at 1st is almost certainly intentional.
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by AlphaNerd »

Fireball at level 1 isn't a problem. The damage scales, so it'll never be a real problem. 1d6 ref 1/2 at first level is worth practically nothing. And as a conduit, you can do it forever at higher levels, and it's still not a problem given how hitpoints scale.

As for bard casting, if you use Frank's bard then he does get spells from 0-9. Of course, you still have classes like Jester (with old-bard casting) that do funny things in that regard.

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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by virgil »

The Summon ability of the True Fiend; how many times per day? How long does it last when you do summon something? How much control do you exert over the summoned fiend?
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by AlphaNerd »

The Summon ability of the True Fiend; how many times per day? How long does it last when you do summon something? How much control do you exert over the summoned fiend?


I'm no expert, but I think it defaults to 1/day, generally 1 hr, and I don't know -- probably typical for summoning spells; read Summon Monster 1.
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by Cielingcat »

Check the Summon ability, it's in the MM glossary.
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by virgil »

Does the multi-arm fiend feat come with the ability to increase the number of actions per round? Aka, what happens were an archer to take that extra arm feat?
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by Catharz »

virgileso at [unixtime wrote:1177391816[/unixtime]]Does the multi-arm fiend feat come with the ability to increase the number of actions per round? Aka, what happens were an archer to take that extra arm feat?
Probably he takes Two-weapon Fighting as well, and starts carrying two bows.
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by Bigode »

FrankTrollman, "Let's make fun of Sig" wrote:The classes in Tome of Fiends in particular are kind of underwhelming jack-of-all trades archetypes for the most part. They get level-appropriate stuff most of the time, and you can break the Conduit at high levels with the right selection of stuff (At-will miracle is basically broken even at 19th level because miracle is kind of broken), but it's nothing really Earth shattering.
What the fvck, Frank? You say at-will miracle's broken, and put it in nonetheless? Namely, the spheres suspect of brokeness from more than one source are: Bubbles (from forcecage on), Heresy (gate and miracle), and Violation (just the gate that gets just the broken part). I raise that, because Cielingcat's warlock, when posted here, got positive critique (from some people; of course there was the traditional bunch of idiots), but eventually had its discussion frozen specifically due to the most powerful spheres; it'd be really good if, with those fixed (IMO), we had a warlock, fluff-wise, worth using. Of course, I'm ready to be proven wrong, but given your own word on the subject, I'm afraid it'll be quite hard ...

Finally, the true fiend, underwhelming? The fact that it has full BAB in the Tomes' rules means it loves combat feats, it has gobs of skills (it'll love skill feats too), including AMD, access to fiend feats, DR level/few-people-have-it, and eventually the ability to summon any fiend (which, due to the unavoidable failure chance, isn't even broken, but I do feel it should have some cap, just to avoid infernal summoning at level 15). Underwhelming compared to the Dungeonomicon classes, for example (not saying it's too good, just that it's really good, IMO)?
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by JonSetanta »

Nice, Bigode. I was waiting for another comment on the spheres imbalance and in some cases redundancy between both other spheres and within themselves. Why wait?
Cuz I've been doubting whether I'm in the wrong to point these out repeatedly when so many others do not.
Given my inexperience with pioneering new game mechanics, I figured it's 'all under control' but the last weeks brought some other perspectives on game balance between traditional D&D and FnK Tome, however much of a fan I am of FnK works.

That Miracle caught my eye too, but like I mentioned I have had my doubts.
"Maybe K and Frank have some house rule nerf somewhere about Wish/Miracle and the Wish Economy..." but no, there isn't any change as far as I saw. Even at later levels it's just too much. Plus, fiends are immortal, which means they will continure to spam wish-like things into existence for ETERNITY. Mechanics, like Pun-pun, should not inherently require any DM to pull divine intervention just to save their game (when the cheese is performed by PCs, that is)

I read up and found an older post I had made about one of the spheres' level one spell, Fireball.
I made a mistake; it wasn't Pyre, but actually Fire sphere. Regardless, without modification to that Fireball spell I still see it as too much.
Here's why:
As-is, Fireball has 20 foot radius spread out to at 1d6 per level, Reflex save for half.
Spread means this blast oozes instantly around obstacles such as corners and open barriers out to maximum distance.
Long range means this spell is a prime pick to begin any low-level non-melee encounter. Expect to see this spell every... fucking... round... From some players.
Any level 1 True Fiend, or character with Fire sphere, will most likely spam this spell whenever the mood strikes, dealing at least 1d6 damage to EVERYTHING WITHIN 20 FEET. Those with "Fiendish Trait: Baator" are immune to Fire, which means Fireball on everything but themselves, making even close-range encounters dangerous to low-level parties given the stacking effect of MULTIPLE fiends casting Fireball.
Most parties can't deal with, say, 2d6 to 1d6 per round against all characters every round, even as they flee from it out to 440 feet, even as the injured healer(s) attempt to patch the party up.
Reflex for half means that everyone and all their items will be taking damage each time. Brutal at Level 1, and remember that most games occur at those low levels.

There's good reason why D&D has so few area effects at low levels, and the ones that exist (Burning Hands, Color Spray) cap themselve and suck anyway.
Fireball is a milestone, a classically dangerous spell, at least in AD&D but with the right feats and boosts in 3.5e it's still fucking fatal. Empower SLA, for instance.
It and other spells with areas, even if it IS an Evocation and we all know how much Frank hates 3.5e damaging spells, shouldn't be given such light treatment.
It's serious stuff, dishing out low amounts of damage to such wide area.

At the moment I'm wondering if it's a case of Evocation-hate gone too far, as in "damage spells suck, that's why it's not broken to be a L1 spell".
In sum, I don't like it one bit, for damge spells or any low-level area SLA.

My advice is replace Fire sphere's Fireball with a simple Produce Flame, since the duration will be short, MM fiends tend to have it anyway, it's single target (per ball), and the sphere-owners don't get many attacks around those low levels.


EDIT: ugly typos eewww
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by JonSetanta »

OK I read on spheres more since last post, as well as discussions of ToF here and over on Wizards (between Leress,Kresalak/Cielingcat,Seerow mostly) and noticed the 'Access' options and their function.
My assumption in the previous post was that all spheres are at-will, until I noticed a True Fiend improves Access every 4 levels and not all at once.
So, this means a fiend with Fire sphere gets Fireball once a day; however, my argument against using Fireball as level 1 spell still stands.

As for frequency of usage, I expect that there are ways to squeeze in better Access than Basic at level 1, unless Frank or K have shunned the tradition for Wizards D&D books to essentially provide feats to break its own classes; I will be happy if such a horribly reoccuring event simply does not exist here!
With my incomplete knowledge of ToF my assumption in this area might be wrong, though.
The first depends on a technicality: when making a True Fiend, is this a base class and race combined as a single race, or can it be applied to any other race? Say, a human.

This is due to the bonus feat humans get, which might be used to acquire a feat that grants Access.
Secondly: is there a feat that grants Access to spheres?

If both are possible, a human True Fiend (if such a thing could exist) uses True Fiend sphere access, their human feat, and Level 1 feat all to get Expert Access to Fireball, thereby using it once per round.
I know, I shouldn't 'enter battle half-loaded' but I'm just doublechecking in case I missed something here...
:blush:
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by CalibronXXX »

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1186648842[/unixtime]]As for frequency of usage, I expect that there are ways to squeeze in better Access than Basic at level 1

Nope.

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1186648842[/unixtime]]The first depends on a technicality: when making a True Fiend, is this a base class and race combined as a single race, or can it be applied to any other race? Say, a human.

Open to any Outsider. There is a feat in ToF that grants Outsider Type and an Natural Weapon. So yes, A human can be a True Fiend, but it costs them their level 1 bonus feat.

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1186648842[/unixtime]]This is due to the bonus feat humans get, which might be used to acquire a feat that grants Access.
Secondly: is there a feat that grants Access to spheres?

No.

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1186648842[/unixtime]]If both are possible, a human True Fiend (if such a thing could exist) uses True Fiend sphere access, their human feat, and Level 1 feat all to get Expert Access to Fireball, thereby using it once per round.
I know, I shouldn't 'enter battle half-loaded' but I'm just doublechecking in case I missed something here...
:blush:

No chance of Expert Access at level one, lowest level to gain expert access is 5 I believe; 12 for a True Fiend.
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by cthulhu »

I think Miracle is in there because Miracle 1/day is not at all out of line with what a 19th level character can do. at will might be though :)
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by Catharz »

Just making sure that everyone here is completely aware: True fiends don't get their first sphere until 4th level. The only class granting a sphere at 1st level is the Conduit, and that's pretty much the way it has to be.
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by Username17 »

Bigode wrote:What the fvck, Frank? You say at-will miracle's broken, and put it in nonetheless?


A valid criticism. Our intention with miracle was always to create an "Intercession Pool" with the Tome of Virtue. That was lost with Keith's Hard Drive and now he's in Law School, so that'll be a long time getting done. With the rate we had been writing at the time (with Keith laid up with a bullet hole in his foot and me having reasonably fixed life schedule) it looked like Tome of Virtue was actually very close so we didn't have to worry about it. But stuff happened.

The PHB Miracle is every bit as broken as gate or wish. And while most of the worst offenses of the latter spells were specifically addressed in Tome of Fiends, Miracle wasn't because it was supposed to be thrown down later. We just never got around to it.

---

As for forcecage, it's actually not much of a problem. Of all the monsters in the Monster Manual at CR 13, only the Iron Golem can actually be sequestered in a Forcecage for all eternity. Everything else is either too big to cage (Storm Giant), teleports (Gelugon), or can destroy a cage with part of an action (Beholder). And frankly, Iron Golems suck my balls anyway, so I don't really give a damn if people can figure out some way to bypass them. They've got a +0 Spot and Listen for heaven's sake! You can just not fight them if you want.

Forcecage is frequently brought up as a problem spell because forcecage + cloudkill will automatically kill the PHB Fighter without rolling dice or allowing a save. That's a problem with the PHB Fighter, and not especially the spell. As apparently CR 13 creatures are not supposed to lose more than a Standard Action dealing with the consequences of a forcecage.

---

I actually don't understand why people latch onto fireball at first level as a big deal. It's like getting Great Cleave for your Shortbow once a day. I'm amazingly unimpressed.

That being said, some of the later spells really do get unfortunately powerful in at-will quantities. Usually not more than you could already get from Chain Binding. But unfortunate nonetheless. If I were to do it all over again, I'd have the triple sphere grant 5/day for your top spell-like and unlimited uses for all the lower level ones. But considering how few of the spheres explode when you throw at-wills at them, it might actually just be better to throw the Oberoni Fallacy at it and be done with it.

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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by Bigode »

Frank wrote:A valid criticism. Our intention with miracle was always to create an "Intercession Pool" with the Tome of Virtue. That was lost with Keith's Hard Drive and now he's in Law School, so that'll be a long time getting done. With the rate we had been writing at the time (with Keith laid up with a bullet hole in his foot and me having reasonably fixed life schedule) it looked like Tome of Virtue was actually very close so we didn't have to worry about it. But stuff happened.

The PHB Miracle is every bit as broken as gate or wish. And while most of the worst offenses of the latter spells were specifically addressed in Tome of Fiends, Miracle wasn't because it was supposed to be thrown down later. We just never got around to it.
Fair enough, and may you have better days (including not having bullet holes in feet, even if that makes you write more).

Frank wrote:Forcecage is frequently brought up as a problem spell because forcecage + cloudkill will automatically kill the PHB Fighter without rolling dice or allowing a save. That's a problem with the PHB Fighter, and not especially the spell. As apparently CR 13 creatures are not supposed to lose more than a Standard Action dealing with the consequences of a forcecage.
I wasn't referring to just fighters, but to half the official classes if caught without specific equipment. Still, you are right with regards to the current state of the Tomes, where it, for example, just requires a feat that has other functions (that is, it's not a feat you take to band-aid a weakness, such as - gasp - the PHB Iron Will - doesn't even patch it that effectively, BTW).

Frank wrote:I actually don't understand why people latch onto fireball at first level as a big deal. It's like getting Great Cleave for your Shortbow once a day. I'm amazingly unimpressed.
Same here. Sigma: compare to sleep and color spray - these, if successful, just win the battle.

Frank wrote:That being said, some of the later spells really do get unfortunately powerful in at-will quantities. Usually not more than you could already get from Chain Binding. But unfortunate nonetheless. If I were to do it all over again, I'd have the triple sphere grant 5/day for your top spell-like and unlimited uses for all the lower level ones. But considering how few of the spheres explode when you throw at-wills at them, it might actually just be better to throw the Oberoni Fallacy at it and be done with it.
I had considered before making expert access be 5/day for all, or for the top 3 levels. Do you think it makes too big a difference?



EDIT: Frank, I suppose you already had some ideas in mind for what miracle should look like- what'd those be? Also, do you mind if I quote you in the warlock thread at WotC?
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by JonSetanta »

I tried to post this a while ago but the server was down, so I put it on TXT and post it now, might have obsolete opinions...


FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1186682890[/unixtime]]And frankly, Iron Golems suck my balls anyway, so I don't really give a damn if people can figure out some way to bypass them. They've got a +0 Spot and Listen for heaven's sake! You can just not fight them if you want.


Uhhh not if the golem is actively directed by something or someone with good senses and/or intelligence <_<;;
Ahem... from personal experience. Very ugly situation. Especially with an army of them, or with spellcasters dwelling inside them...


FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1186682890[/unixtime]]
I actually don't understand why people latch onto fireball at first level as a big deal. It's like getting Great Cleave for your Shortbow once a day. I'm amazingly unimpressed.


Eh my argument was weak and unsupported. I tried my best to push a convincing opinion but that's not my strength, as grades have shown repeatedly in school and college (damn those formal essays! DAMN THEM!) so I wouldn't be surprized if anyone just ignored it ha
My beef with the area effects is stated, but frequency of use is more of my concern.

As Calibron confirmed for me (thanks!) it's not as bad as I had assumed. By the levels a fiend may accomplish Fireball-spamming, people are doing much more with much less.
Given that it's impossible to acquire Expert Sphere at L1, my second argument is invalid. Meh, it happens.
On the other hand, I am happy that it's not possible to do that!


Sad to read about Keith/K, especially his foot. What the fuck????
A friend of mine was jailed recently (which explains his 2 month sudden abscence and dead cell account) but to be SHOT? Uhhhhh care to elaborate, Frank?
Or is there a thread about that subject somewhere here...


About Miracle: I noticed in the wording that it's possible to duplicate any spells of 7th level or lower, any Cleric one 8th or lower.
Limited Wish, a Wizard spell, is 7.
Miracle -> Limited Wish -> cheat -> accomplish pretty much anything.
The following is suddenly possible with Miracle when doing this trick:
* Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
* Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school.
* Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
* Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a –7 penalty on its next saving throw.

OK, the redundant "duplicate" options can be ignored, but that last one irks me... so vague.

Anyways, hope it gets nerfed (limited options) or removed.

(written just now)
Bigode: Yes but Color Spray and Sleep both have very specific effects which tend to be resisted/immunized easily, as well as when the save is made the targets pick their noses and pretty much go about normal business as if nothing happened.
Also, Fireball destroys objects. Those two don't.
I'm an Evocation fan cuz I see the utility of being able to damage just about anything; there's much reliability in damage with save-for-half and I prefer that any day over all or nothing (not a gambling kinda person) but it's true that Evocation needs to be better than it is now!
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by shirak »

Sigma: Miracle is broken because it is basically like Wish only more so. You might as well call it "Invoke DM Fiat" and be done with it. It's not even limited by what Dieties can do. You can seriously pray to a Rank 1 Diety to destroy the world and the diety is allowed to do that!

On the other hand, part of the balance checks for the Tome series is that the game makes no fucking sense around level 18. So even having Miracle at will is not really important.



Btw, Keith being at Law school explains why he hasn't shown up here at all lately. Um, this may sound ignorant but what is he doing at law school in the middle of summer?
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

Post by JonSetanta »

Why, he's gettin an edjumakation o'course!
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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

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Re: Tome of Fiends Draft Copy

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Ceilingcat: *saved*

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