Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both, Continued

[Lago_AM3P]

[TGFBS] The old thread had gotten too long, but for reference it is here[/TGFBS]


RC, I don't think there's ever going to be a way to satisfactorily balance things 'per adventure'/'per level'/'per so many encounters'.

I'm well aware of the problems of the per adventure schedule and I think they're almost identical to per level. The advantages that either scheme give still seem metagamey to me.

Maybe... we could put out a Fate Chart and before the beginning of every encounter the players roll on it and determine what kind of bonuses they can get for the battle.

Low numbers would be bullshit like, 'gain +1 on one attack' and really high numbers would be, 'automatically succeed on all will saves for the rest of the encounter'. That way peoples' Super Abilities aren't used for every encounter. For really important battles, like fighting the Dark Lord who killed your brother, you can give the DM some half-assed justification and get a bonus to the roll.

[shirak]

Lago, why have even more randomness? Either you have an ability or you don't. There should be no maybe.

[technomancer]

In order to clear huge KO counts, you just have to manage the level correctly, at least, in Dynasty Warriors 3 (the last one I played). You just fail to kill the gate captain, and enemy reinforcements keep pouring through. On some maps, you can be close enough to 3 gates to keep them active, and now it's just a matter of time. My friend an I each maxed out both our KO counts to 9999 in one map doing that. It took forever.

[Koumei]

Heheh. That's what you do in 5, as well. But in Tactics, what you do is rush to the enemy main camp, without capturing any supply bases. It will tell you "You can't capture the main camp without a clear path" (you need to capture a chain of supply bases before you can take the main camp). So it'll just keep on spawning more groups of enemies.

Unless, of course, you forgot to tell Guan Yu (or presumably any halfway decent general) to sit tight, in which case they will rush forward, capturing base after base in rapid succession, and you accidentally win.

[Lago_AM3P]

Lago, why have even more randomness? Either you have an ability or you don't. There should be no maybe.

Some people believe that the game should support certain abilities that give the character more power but aren't available. I think RC and I pointed out the failures of trying to balance it out by some sort of in-game schedule. People will try to game the system.

On the other hand, while making your super abilities random it doesn't allow people to game the system. Yet sometimes people feel that these abilities are important for certain defining moments in the story. I mean, to NOT allow Wolverine to use his Berserker Barrage ability on Sabertooth after killing his best friends because he didn't roll well on the random power-up table is just cruel.

I'm personally lost for a solution like this. Maybe it's better to just completely kick 'per schedule' out of the game?

[JonSetanta]

I remember a mentin in AD&D that "low ability scores should never be rewarded". Maybe this carried over to 3.x, but I wholly disagree.
For one, years ago I was on the recieving end of some serious teen geek drama involving fudged stat-rolls.
Namely, I was being fair, and rolled crap set... 3 times... and the DM told me to take it, so I did.
No stat was over 15, on average they were about 11-12.
Then another player rols a 14, 2x15, 2x16, and a 17, and the DM points this out as suspicious and demands that they re-do it where the DM can see (the player made these rolls while the DM had left the room, everyone was buisy..).
The player starts bitchin that he did it fairly, and half the other players argue that he should get to keep it.

I argued for a reroll for myself and another player that took some lousy stats, as I could predict the disparity between the 'haves ' and 'have nots'.
I can't remember exactly how that night ended, but it was sour moods all-round, and I believe the DM chose to do point-buy (the supposed cheater was still grumpy and loud for the rest of the night, but he's emo anyway..).
However..

There SHOULD BE a rewarding mechanism for low ability scores!!
If a PC (and not NPC) has some seriously sucky scores, and nothing higher than, say, 11, they should get some bonus to a chart like Lago exampled BUT...
..the chart goes in reverse. And instead of high rolls being good, the low is better, since you add up all your ability score mods and slap it to the roll when the shit hits the fan.
Rather than random effects, each 'success' on the 'badass chart' would add an increasing amount of 'coolness points' or similar, allowing things like instantly heal self, revive a friend, deal level xd6 damage with any one attack, and so on.
Nothing more powerful than a level-appropriate spell.

The superman-players that seem to 'win all the time' will keep doing their thing, but suddenly when all seems lost, the meek lil tag-a-long busts out some awesome 1-shot.
Then when encounter is over, he's back to mediocre.

[Lago_AM3P]

There SHOULD BE a rewarding mechanism for low ability scores!!
If a PC (and not NPC) has some seriously sucky scores, and nothing higher than, say, 11, they should get some bonus to a chart like Lago exampled BUT...
..the chart goes in reverse. And instead of high rolls being good, the low is better, since you add up all your ability score mods and slap it to the roll when the shit hits the fan.
Rather than random effects, each 'success' on the 'badass chart' would add an increasing amount of 'coolness points' or similar, allowing things like instantly heal self, revive a friend, deal level xd6 damage with any one attack, and so on.

If you get an abyssmal starting roll in D&D, the game forces you to reroll.

Seriously, though, what's the point of rewarding people for poor scores? Why should being as weak as an ant give you more benefit than being as weak as a frog? What possible logic is there in making 10 the worst ability score?

[Bigode]

Sigma, point buy has already been invented - I believe that more than half an edition ago. Of course, there may be the stock answer of "my GM doesn't allow it"; in which case you should tell them why it's bad not to.

Also: scroll halfway down.

[Koumei]

As long as Loviatar keeps doing her thing, I don't care what changes they make to the FR. Granted, while I call myself a fan of it, the best way I stay a fan is to not read the books. At least, the history and all that. It's just a bunch of conveniently premade maps and city write-ups, a few organisations if I need them, and my favourite deity. As well as happy NWN memories.

On rewarding people for low stats:
Rifts Ultimate Edition recommends that if someone rolls really crappy on some stats, then they get bonuses to others. So, say you roll all 15s. This is worthless. Because it's only at 16+ where a stat gives you a bonus to anything in Rifts. 8-15 is all the same. It's dumb.

But if one of those is a 7, it has a penalty associated with it, and adds 1d4 to another stat. Now there's even more reason than ever before to roll all your dice in one heap and arrange the individual dice into groups of 3: Before it was to get as many 16+es as possible for the bonus dice to be added, and now it's that and also to have them be as extreme as possible: one or two bad stats, and a few really really high stats.

Anyway... the "Teenagers From Outer Space" system does something kind of odd. Each stat ranges from 1-6. It's seriously just a d6 for each. Anyway, from a "succeeding at actions and things going according to plan" point of view, medium stats are the best (3-4). From a "making interesting things happen and/or being the focus of attention for a short while" point of view, really high or really low stats are what you're after.

Because if you fail badly, something comical or dramatic tends to happen (note: nothing permanent. Permanent stuff, including death, doesn't happen in Teeners). If you succeed too well, then the same thing can be said. You know, accidentally knocking buildings over, putting the moves on that hot chick only for her to fall in love with you and stalk you forever...

Not sure it'd work that well in D&D, seeing as it already has enough problems with people getting ideas as to what should happen on a bad roll ("yeah, you decapitate your friend, hand the sword to the enemy, drop all your potions and kill your own grandmother, as well as ruining the economy").

[Koumei]

Check out the description of this game. Instant lulz, I guarantee it.

http://www.mentalwinds.com/page351.html

MetaScape II is a very advanced role playing game targeting a mature, experienced audience. To successfully grasp this system and wield its power, you need to be mature and intelligent. Seriously, if you're not at least in upper high school or college with above average intelligence and maturity level, this system is NOT for you.

I could go on and quote the whole thing, really. He's that pleased with himself. And the degree of enthusiasm and unprofessional style is on par with Kevin Siembieda (Rifts - the only system I've seen to date where the writer is so pumped about their own work that they add exclamaion marks when discussing how cool it is to be ______).

[Leress]

So I guessing that the previous 350 pages are where this person ego happens to reside.

Oh I love this part

As a living game, you will find some odd differences from most systems. There will be editing anomalies everywhere. With over 550 pages, when a small rule is tweaked, it is often difficulty to make the appropriate change thought the entire set of booklets. Thus, you will run into typos, contradictions, etc. We are currently working to minimize these as our top priority. This is a living game. It breathes, grows, mutates, and changes. At this point, it is being edited mostly for clarity, consistency, and expansion (adding more skills, equipment, powers, etc. to the already large list).

So the system is for "master roleplayers" yet they couldn't get the basics of editing done.

Now I am curious on how "great" this system is...well thinks it is.

Wow this just keeps getting better...

Art
Unlike many Internet downloads, MetaScape II is a robust system and includes over 100 works of professional art throughout the rules, (not something little Johnny drew).

Who gives a shit who did the art?
Protip: Just because a professional did it doesn't make it great art. (ex. The most recent WOTC books)


EABAnywhere
This doesn't have a drop of art in it, but I think it is a solid system (with some minor tweaks)

[NineInchNall]

Why I hate most gamers, condensed: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=26

[Koumei]

Heck, the art isn't even that super-special-awesome. It's not bad, sure, but it isn't as amazing as he's made it out to be.

Then there's the fact that it's based on private, unpublished novels. See: fanfiction.

Apparently there are also quite a few typos, which is odd when you claim to be the super-elite intelligent pretentious masters.

Comedy gold.

[Crissa]

I kinda miss professional art.

If there were more of it, maybe my artist friends wouldn't be so poor and depressed.

-Crissa

[Koumei]

1189810751[/unixtime]]Why I hate most gamers, condensed: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=26

Yet again, the WotC boards make me wish I could press a button to make other people's computers punch them in the face.

[JonSetanta]

Lago and Bigode seem to have misread me. That, and it was AD&D back then; 3.x has much better system, as well as pretty decent point buy.

Seriously, though, what's the point of rewarding people for poor scores? Why should being as weak as an ant give you more benefit than being as weak as a frog? What possible logic is there in making 10 the worst ability score?

What's the point? It was an idea of mine. Why? For fairness, built into the rules, for when 'by the book' GMs refuse to fudge.
Mostly, just something fun to have in epic confrontations but the mechanics of my idea might be flawed.
I wouldn't know, can't ever get anyone to help test such an idea; most diehard gamers have that same reaction of "Reward a character that sucks??? LOLOLOL" and disregard me as some whiner that can't handle 'unfairness'.

[Leress]

On MetaScape II

I have been reading the first pdf that is in the pack (it is 400 pages of a 500+ page system)

So far there is one phrase I can use to describe this system
"It's not stupid, it's advanced"

This system throws in every game system I've ever heard of into a pot and sets it on boil. It is really just wants to show that these people made a new die type (the d16) and this game really isn't advanced so much as convoluted and contrived.

Apparently magic...or sorry Meta comes in flavors.

[JonSetanta]

Damn. I jsut DL it and was about to skim it, but now I really don't feel like reading through yet another Rifts clone.
The original was bad enough, and yes I tried to get a game going with some friends.

I was explaining the basics and after an hour we weren't really getting anywhere close to starting (even I was becoming confused) so I said "Let's just play D&D" and threw the book back on my shelf.
It's sat there for uh.. 8 years now? And I've had it since I was 12, back when D&D was just a big expensive mystery and I wasn't really into 'fantasy', more of a cyberpunk fan.
Now I'm regretting not getting into D&D earlier, but hey.. 16-17 is still a fine time to start.

[Leress]

I say skim through it, only skim though

[JonSetanta]

Right right.

[the_taken]

1189818728[/unixtime]]"It's not stupid, it's advanced"

I'm reading it as well. I think the game designers where hoping that people would assume that because the numbers are so complex that it can't be flawed. Personally, if I can't grasp the system before I look at my dice, it'll never see play within a hundred kilometers of here.

[Leress]

1189820452[/unixtime]]

1189818728[/unixtime]]"It's not stupid, it's advanced"

I'm reading it as well. I think the game designers where hoping that people would assume that because the numbers are so complex that it can't be flawed. Personally, if I can't grasp the system before I look at my dice, it'll never see play within a hundred kilometers of here.

Here is a whole thread on Metascape on RPGnet forums
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=3 ... 5&t=354033

This is hilarious...

Condescending? Yes. True? Yes!

That seals the deal, they...*checks title page, which looks lame*...Blake Mobley is a very up tight shit. He has the playtesters orgainzed by "level" (ex. Master, Regular, and Notable.)

At least the creator of Rift wasn't a pretentious ass.

[JonSetanta]

No, Kevin Siembieda is a bit close-minded tho.
And not very perfectionist, which makes for a bad lead designer...

[Leress]

That is true

[JonSetanta]

IMO the worst part of Rifts was how 'saving throws' were handled...