Races of War

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RiotGearEpsilon
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Post by RiotGearEpsilon »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Josh, I think that's right, although in actual play I would exclude dodge bonuses granted by others from being passed on to others.

Rules lawyer-y change: Any Dodge bonus to AC you gain is also granted as an untyped bonus to any adjacent allies for as long as you benefit from the bonus and your ally remains adjacent.
Elegant fix.
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Post by Miryafa »

Shouldn't the Same Unit "Human Heavy Cavalry" have damage 6?
Human Damage: 1 (base) + 1 (BAB) = 2
Heavy Warhorse Damage: 1 (base) + 3 (BAB) + 0.5 * 3 (Str Bonus) = 5 (5.5 rounded down)
Use Mount base damage rather than rider's, so
Damage: 5 (Mount) + 0.5*2 (Rider) = 6
Last edited by Miryafa on Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Does the Two Weapon Fighting feat combine with the TWF rules of 3.5 or is it its own thing? Is there a -2/-2 penalty on your attacks? Are you restricted to using a light weapon in your off hand?

I'm leaning towards no on these, but I was curious if I'm missing something.
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Post by Maxus »

RobbyPants wrote:Does the Two Weapon Fighting feat combine with the TWF rules of 3.5 or is it its own thing? Is there a -2/-2 penalty on your attacks? Are you restricted to using a light weapon in your off hand?

I'm leaning towards no on these, but I was curious if I'm missing something.
No. That's just a pile of extra ass which all combines to fuck up dual-wielders.

The dude's already having to pay a feat and buy another weapon. That's enough of a tax already.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

RobbyPants wrote:Does the Two Weapon Fighting feat combine with the TWF rules of 3.5 or is it its own thing? Is there a -2/-2 penalty on your attacks? Are you restricted to using a light weapon in your off hand?

I'm leaning towards no on these, but I was curious if I'm missing something.
Yes, as dictated by the feat. So you don't take any penalties for wielding a weapon in your off-hand.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Thanks. That's how I ruled it on the spot, but I wanted to make sure.
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Post by Koumei »

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Post by Almaz »

I can't believe it took me this long to notice that samurai can choose a ranged weapon like a bow if they really want to be jerks.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Expertise
You leverage your combat skill into defense rather than offense.
Requirement: You must make an attack action and have a BAB of at least +1. You need not specifically attack an enemy.
Effect: Before making an attack roll, you may take an attack penalty of up to your BAB on this attack and all further attacks until your next turn, and gain an equal Dodge Bonus to AC. You may only use this option once per turn.
So what am I missing that prevents a Tome character who gets multiple attacks from just cashing in the final, lowest bonus in their attack routine to add their BAB to AC ?

With Tome 2wf, you don't even need a full attack, to pull that, and consequently offhand daggers become better defenses than shields at mid levels and higher.

As neat as it is to give the full attack option a defensive bonus and make secondary natural attacks meaningful as a parrying tool, I kinda think the decision should have to be made before making the first attack roll for your turn
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

actually, I think it's perfectly fine to have 6+ level martial characters doing their full attack routine, but on the last attack switching to defense mode.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

Simple solution: the maximum penalty to BAB you can take on an iterative attack decreases according to the pattern that 3e BAB follows. If you do it on your third attack, the maximum penalty you can take is 10 less than your BAB.
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Post by Koumei »

Incidentally, relevant to Phalanx Fighter, is there some handy list of Dodge Bonuses that are not-too-hard to acquire? Elusive Target is the obvious one, and Combat Expertise can be good too (especially if one guy is more concerned with "my unit cannot be hit" than "I can hit"). I suppose potions of Haste aren't out of the question at mid-levels. And one level of Monk, if you have nothing better to do with your Swift action, can grant you +4 Dodge to AC.

Anything else that works really well? I have ideas relating to 3x3 infantry blocks with (front row: greatsword, mid-row: reach polearm, back row: longbow), for the purpose of being a cock. "Hahaha, we may have few HP, but our Armour Class is through the roof!" (beaten easily by auto-hits, save-or-die effects, forcing them apart so as to end the bonus, or flying over them and skipping the encounter).
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Post by Prak »

Actually, historically, the picts basically fought exactly that way.
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Post by Maxus »

Depending on your kingpin's level, he could take expert tactician for the center man and add his level to his AC, presumably as a dodge bonus.

So you could have a low-level squad with one really high-level guy in the middle who has extremely high dexterity, Elusive Target, Expert Tactician, Phalanx Fighter, a level of Monk and so forth. Then they move as a group and kick everyone's ass, Overlord-style (keep meaning to do a class based on that game, something nice about having a big crowd of minions to overwhelm creatures by the dogpile method...)

Knight may work out for drawing fire.
Last edited by Maxus on Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Prak_Anima wrote:actually, I think it's perfectly fine to have 6+ level martial characters doing their full attack routine, but on the last attack switching to defense mode.
Radiant Phoenix wrote: Simple solution: the maximum penalty to BAB you can take on an iterative attack decreases according to the pattern that 3e BAB follows. If you do it on your third attack, the maximum penalty you can take is 10 less than your BAB.
I thought about this, but it leaves some problematic interactions with other tome stuff.

Firstly, Tome 2wf BAB +1 gives you a pair of attacks made at full BAB, so for BAB +1 through +5, a 2wf character can just writeoff their offhand attack as a "hope to roll a 20" and gain their BAB as a dodge bonus to AC.

Compare to a sword and shield user who took Elusive Target with their feat choice, and took a Dragonscale Shield (best tome shield bonus on a less-than-great shield)
At BAB +1, the 2wf character gets +1 dodge to AC, the s&s character gets +2 dodge and +3 shield bonus, coming out 4 AC points ahead. This is fine, since the 2wf character is getting an additional attack and presumably the shield character was prioritizing defense and the 2wf offense
At BAB +2, the 2wf character gets +2 dodge to AC, vs the s&s character's +2 dodge +3 shield
At BAB +3, the 2wf character gets +3 dodge to AC, vs the s&s character's +2 dodge, +3 shield
At BAB +4, the 2wf character gets +4 dodge to AC, which would mean they've caught up, but by now the S&S character has likely acquired a Magic Shield with an Enhancement that scales as per BoG, and in that case the S&S character has a +5 shield bonus and a +2 dodge bonus, putting them still 2 AC points ahead.
At BAB +5, the 2wf character gets a +5 dodge to AC, closing to within one point.
At BAB +6, a couple things happen. The characters both get the +6 abilities, so the 2wf character is now gaining a +2 shield bonus when not flat footed and the S&S character becomes immune to Power attack. At this point the 2wf character is getting a +6 dodge bonus and a +2 shiled bonus compared to the s&s character's +5 shield and +2 dodge, so 2wf provides better defense whenever the 2wf character makes a less-than-full attack. However, both characters get iteratives, so the 2wf character is now sacrificing multiple attacks in their full attack routine to flailings in order to get the AC boost.....

Or are they?

If you go with Core, then the Srd on full attack specifies highest to lowest attack bonus, meaning that limiting the Expertise bonus to BAB - iterative penalty means that the 2wf character is either only getting a +1 dodge to AC, or eating a pretty meaningful -6 penalty to highest offhand attack, -5 onhand attack and -5 offhand attack. (barring other trickery like taking Blitz to reduce the iterative penalty)

However, we're talking about TOME here, and that's where things get muddy
this very Races of War thread wrote: Bonus Attacks and BAB
The bonus attacks that characters get for hitting a BAB of 11 or 16 are not good. I don't know what that was about, but I can only assume that it had to do with a fundamental lack of playtesting past level 10. Anyway, the penalty for taking a bonus attack in a Full Attack action should never rise above -5. So if you have a BAB of +17, your attack routine should look like this: +17/+12/+12/+12. Really.
This is meaningful for BAB +11 and up characters, but doesn't change the +6 BAB 2wf example I was pondering
Tome PDF, page 270 wrote: Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks. If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you may make the attacks in any order you want. All extra attacks derived from base attack bonus are made at a {5 penalty. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
( curiously, my search function doesn't turn up the Races of War thread quote in the PDF, nor the PDF quote in this nor other Tome threads, )

Now this is a serious powerup to 2wf Expertise at +6 or better BAB, since such a character can take their attacks in an order that puts their primary offhand attack last to eat the Expertise penalty and still gets full bonuses with all other attacks.

So with that in play, even with expertise taking the iterative penalty, the 2wf character is getting +6 dodge, +2 shield bonus vs the S&S character's +2 dodge, +5 shield bonus after any attack, whether full or not. Offensively they two characters are hitting at the same bonus for the same damage with their onhand weapons. On a less-than-full attack, the 2wf character is getting an offhand attack which is at an unlikely to matter -6, and on a full attack, the 2wf character is getting a secondary offhand attack at -5 and then taking a -6 to their primary offhand attack for the AC. Now attacks at -5 and -6 are unlikely to matter against armored opponents, but are meaningful against animals and oozes and are at least chances to roll a nat 20 that the s&s character isn't getting.

Now from their, the 2wf character is going to gain +1 dodge every level, and the S&S character is going to gain +1 shield at 7th and every 3rd level

So with those rules and interpretations in place, from BAB +6 and up, 2wf becomes is a better AC boost than using a shield is save for the case of flatfooted characters. This doesn't sit well with me, especially since 2wf is also pocketing additional offensive attacks - and it means that all shield characters should also probably take 2wf, since using expertise to turn a shield bash into a dodge bonus is going to be a better AC buff than elusive target from BAB +3 and up.

***

Moving on, at BAB +11 or better, allowing Expertise to add to AC for a single attack tradeoff gets problematic.

Even with limits in place, so that sacrificing a non-primary attack means that a character only gains a dodge bonus of BAB-5 to their AC via expertise, an 11th level character is still gaining a +6 dodge to AC.
That's better than the armor bonus provided by any of the Tome Light Armors and better than all but one of the Medium armors. By level 14, it's bigger than all but the three heaviest armors in Tome. This means, that for the relevant characters, going first is a bigger deal than wearing Sun Plate or Demon Armor.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Miryafa »

I would rule that the entire round must be fought in "Expertise mode" to get the bonus from Expertise.

I have two different issues now: 1. Is the Samurai overpowered? 2. Is that even a valid question in a Frank&K thread?

The reason I ask is because I (being a not-very-good optimizer) came up with a Samurai 20 build that deals 21358 + 34 CON damage per round (I'm a bit proud of it too, because of how long it took).

Edit: whoops, just read the Lightning Mace feat. Doesn't work unless you count wielding a scythe 2-handed counts as using the weapon in each hand. However, pick is still open, and Kiai doesn't have to be on an ancestral weapon (which is actually better, since F&K weapon enhancements go up to +7). I might post that later.

The Math
Samurai 20 optimized Ubercharger post-wish economy
Human
Stats 14/18/11/8/8/8 (25 point buy)
Levels +5 Dex, +5 all stats from wish
Feats: Combat school (+2/+2/take 10), (bonus) subtle cut (-/+1 and wounding), Blitz (-/+20+1d6), Insightful Strike (double crit range & multiplier), Murderous Intent (+2/+2 after a kill), Lightning Mace (extra crits), Shock Trooper (PA-AC), Leap Attack (2x damage on charge), (bonus) Horde Breaker (extra AoO), a feat/item that grands Pounce
Abilities: Iajutsu Grandmaster, Iajutsu Focus, Kiai x12, Ancestral Weapon, Ignores DR, Armor, Natural Armor, and AC boosts from Spells or SLAs
Items: +STR Item, +DEX Item (+7 each), Aptitude (Mace) Ancestral Scythe 2d4/19-20/x7
Ending Stats: 26 (+8)/35 (+12)/16 (+3)/13 (+1)/13 (+1)/13 (+1)

1st: kill someone, then full PA Leap Attack Charge:
Melee: +5 Aptitude Ancestral Scythe +34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34 Kiai/+34/+32/+32/+32/+34/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (AoO)/+34 (Crit*)/+34/+34 (Crit*)/+34/+34 (Crit*)/+34 = 34 attacks at 44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/44/42
*10% Crit chance over 28/34 attacks = 2/3 "guaranteed" crits (each giving another attack due to Lightning Mace), 5% miss chance over 34 attacks = 1 "guaranteed" miss, so ignore 1 of the non-crits (because a Kiai is only on confirmed hits, so all crits go through)

Damage: +5 Aptitude Ancestral Scythe (2d4 + 12 (STR) + 2 (CS) + 1 (SC) + 20+1d6 (Blitz) + 2 (MI) + 5 (Magic) + 40 (PA)) x 7 (IS) + 1 CON = (633.5 + 1 CON) x 14 (crits) + (90.5 + 1 CON) x 20 (noncrits) = (8869 + 1810) x 2 (LA) + 34 CON = 21358 + 34 CON

Regular full PA LA Charge after killing someone:
Melee: +5 Aptitude Ancestral Scythe +32/+30/+30/+30/+30 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (AoO)/+32 (Crit**)/+32 = 19 attacks at 42/42/42/42/42/42/42/42/42/42/42/42/42/42/42/42/40/40/40
**10% Crit chance over 18 attacks = 1 "guaranteed" crit, 5% miss chance over 18 attacks = 0 "guaranteed" misses

Damage: +5 Aptitude Ancestral Scythe (2d4 + 12 (STR) + 2 (CS) + 1 (SC) + 20+1d6 (Blitz) + 5 (Magic) + 40 (PA)) x7 (IS) + 1 CON = (633.5 + 1 CON) x 1 (crit) + (90.5 + 1 CON) x 18 (noncrits) = (661.5 + 1629) x 2 (LA) + 19 CON = 4581 + 19 CON

I'm assuming every attack hits because of the Samurai class abilities Deny Armor and Deny Castor Defenses, which make every attack a touch attack.
The main point is still valid though, since another Samurai class ability gives his weapons the Vorpal quality, auto-killing anything with an anatomy on a crit.
Last edited by Miryafa on Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:28 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Red_Rob »

Level 20 is fucked. This is not an argument against Samurai.

I have, however, restricted Samurai in my campaigns to Ancestral weapons with a x2 crit multiplier as i found the burst damage they could do with a standard action skewed the challenge presented by various enemies and was making encounter design a chore.

Does anyone else think the first level of Tome Fighter makes it the ultimate dip for martial characters? All good saves, +1 BaB, all weapon and armour proficiency, ability to use all exotic weapons and reroll any one die roll per turn?
Simplified Tome Armor.

Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

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Post by Dominicius »

I actually like Koumei's old Swashbuckler more as a 1 level dip. Here is what it offers at level one
Level 1:
Fencing (Ex): Swashbucklers are good at keeping themselves safe from injury. Once per round, as a Not An Action, a Swashbuckler may make a melee attack roll when attacked. If the Swashbuckler rolls higher, the attack is parried and she is safe from harm. This does not work in heavy armour.

Your Opponent Is Me! (Ex): you have to pay attention to a Swashbuckler when fighting her, as even losing concentration for a moment will mean your kidneys get turned into kebabs. Whenever the Swashbuckler successfully strikes a foe in melee combat on her own turn, they must either successfully attack her or take the Full Defence Action before her next turn. Otherwise, when she attacks, she treats them as flat-footed and deals bonus damage equal to three times her class level per hit.
And that is pretty nifty.

Also, seriously why the fuck are you using WotC feats? 90% of them are garbage, 5% are ok and the other 5% are broken. I don't even fucking care what class you are using if you are going to put the LA&Shock Trooper combo on him. The damage is going to be ridiculous no matter what chassis you pick for it.
Last edited by Dominicius on Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Koumei »

Maxus wrote:Depending on your kingpin's level, he could take expert tactician for the center man and add his level to his AC, presumably as a dodge bonus.
Actually it's Lightning Reflexes that does that.

Anyway, this is for my tabletop group, so the people here in my IRC one can breathe a sigh of relief. 9x level 10 (caps at 8x) == CR 16. Now, this group is not Rogue-Proof (which subtracts a huge amount from AC), and only has +5 Initiative. But basically, the AC breakdown, because they get to stack Dodge bonuses on each other (ie A B C <-- A gives +2 to B, B gives +2 to A and C, C gives +2 to B), is obscene:

62 75 62 (Back row: Longbows)
75 88 75 (Mid row: Glaives)
62 75 62 (Front row: Great Swords)

Assuming Dodge Bonuses don't apply when Flat, it's only 18 (auto-hit) in those cases. So if they block a door, then for 8 rounds they use two stances at once (when it runs out they stick with the AC Booster), allowing for them to deal 2 Con damage with their weapons. However they won't hit that often - even only turning 5 BAB into Expertise, they're still weighing in at fairly embarrassing attack bonuses, so it's weight of attacks + they can afford to play the waiting game. The PCs are the ones on a timer here.

And if the players are smart, they'll go "Screw these guys, let's just smash down the wall over there and enter that way!" or "Hey, you can just D-Door us all past them, who even gives a shit about these guards?"
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Post by Miryafa »

Red_Rob wrote:Level 20 is fucked. This is not an argument against Samurai.

I have, however, restricted Samurai in my campaigns to Ancestral weapons with a x2 crit multiplier as i found the burst damage they could do with a standard action skewed the challenge presented by various enemies and was making encounter design a chore.
Fair enough. That's an interesting choice for your games, and I agree about the damage. In my game, however, it lets the Samurai keep up with the Gadgeteer, so that's not bad.
Does anyone else think the first level of Tome Fighter makes it the ultimate dip for martial characters? All good saves, +1 BaB, all weapon and armour proficiency, ability to use all exotic weapons and reroll any one die roll per turn?
I had similar thoughts about the Tome Monk. Level 1 gives +4AC, and concealment when attacking in melee with any weapon.
Last edited by Miryafa on Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Races of War and D-Con classes are definitely incredibly powerful. Like transmuter wizards and shit. Really, all the classes are "awesome 1-level" dips, just like they're also all pretty good 2-level dips, and 3-level dips, and just powerful classes in general.
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Post by Niles »

Miryafa wrote:I had similar thoughts about the Tome Monk. Level 1 gives +4AC,
It's an armor bonus, the ability is worth 100 gp.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Since it's an armor bonus that doesn't give an armor check/stealth penalty, wouldn't that make it worth 1,100 (for a mithril chain shirt)?
Last edited by Count Arioch the 28th on Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RadiantPhoenix »

I would value it at 2kgp...
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Post by RobbyPants »

Niles wrote:
Miryafa wrote:I had similar thoughts about the Tome Monk. Level 1 gives +4AC,
It's an armor bonus, the ability is worth 100 gp.
He could have been referring to the Dodge bonus from a stance, since he also mentioned concealment.

Edit:
This, of course, takes a swift action, which might take away from other options you could otherwise be doing.
Last edited by RobbyPants on Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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