Races of War

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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Miryafa
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Post by Miryafa »

RobbyPants wrote:
Niles wrote:
Miryafa wrote:I had similar thoughts about the Tome Monk. Level 1 gives +4AC,
It's an armor bonus, the ability is worth 100 gp.
He could have been referring to the Dodge bonus from a stance, since he also mentioned concealment.

Edit:
This, of course, takes a swift action, which might take away from other options you could otherwise be doing.
I was originally referring to the armor bonus, but I figured you guys would look up the monk if you were really interested. As ...You lost me said, most of the classes are great 1-level dips. A more comprehensive list of the 1-dip Monk benefits are:
-Constant 4AC Armor bonus
-All good saves
-Choose 2 (costs a swift action per round): constant concealment; +4 dodge bonus to AC; +4 dodge bonus to all saves; trip or disarm any opponent who tries to attack you; +30' all movement speeds; move through occupied spaces without provoking AoOs
-A secondary weapon Slam attack (1d8 damage for a medium creature)
Last edited by Miryafa on Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

also, if you dip monk and take TWF, you're always armed with two weapons.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Prak_Anima wrote:also, if you dip monk and take TWF, you're always armed with two weapons.
Not true, at least with the Tome monk. You don't wield a secondary slam attack, and you certainly don't wield it in your off-hand.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

Dungeonomicon Monk wrote:If the slam is used with other weaponry, it becomes a secondary natural attack, suffers a -5 penalty to-hit, and adds only half his Strength modier to damage.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Secondary natural attacks are not second weapons you fucking idiot.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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RobbyPants
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Post by RobbyPants »

Yeah, Prak, that doesn't trigger TWF or work as well as TWF without.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

Ah, missed that. Whatever, not a big deal, daggers are cheap.

also, Kaelik, turn the Dick knob down a couple notches, will ya?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Josh_Kablack
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Well, if you are already snagging the sorts of non-strength damage adds that make 2wf rock da house (sneak attack, combat school subtle cut, firemage, snowsacper, knight designate, heck even favored enemy, etc, etc), then dipping monk for the additional secondary slam on your full attacks can still be pretty damn good, despite the -5 to-hit penalty.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Knight designate doesn't actually work like that. Although if you have a 50% hit rate, it approximates it...
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France

Mount Flamethrower on rear
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Prak_Anima wrote:Ah, missed that. Whatever, not a big deal, daggers are cheap.

also, Kaelik, turn the Dick knob down a couple notches, will ya?
He can't. Someone broke his dick volume control a long time ago.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
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Miryafa
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Post by Miryafa »

I finally figured out what a Samurai can do with a pair of picks. On a side note, a Samurai doesn't need to use most of his abilities with only his Ancestral Weapon; Kiai and Iajutsu Focus (the key combat abilities for the class, IMO) can be used with any weapon. On that note, I think Iajutsu Focus is one of the most powerful abilities in the Tomes, that I've seen. Here's my version of an optimized Samurai with Iajutsu Focus, dealing 7k damage + 27 Con damage at level 12.
Human Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Samurai 11
Optimized Ubercharger post-wish economy

Level 12
1 Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian: TWF, (Human bonus) Combat School
2 Samurai:
3 Samurai: Lightning Mace, (bonus) Horde Breaker
4 Samurai:
5 Samurai: (bonus) Whirlwind Attack
6 Samurai: Leap Attack
7 Samurai: (bonus) Blindfighting
8 Samurai:
9 Samurai: Shock Trooper
10 Samurai: (bonus) Subtle Cut
11 Samurai:
12 Samurai: Murderous Intent

Feat explanations: Having to mix pre-F&K prereqs with F&K material, I use this system:
Power Attack -> Everyone has this
Improved Bull Rush -> Everyone has this
Combat Reflexes -> Horde Breaker
Two-Weapon Fighting -> Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus -> Combat School

Stats 14/18/11/8/8/8 (25 point buy)
Levels +3 Dex, +5 all stats from wish
Abilities: Rage (non-tome), Lion's Pounce, Ancestral Weapon, Pledge of Loyalty, Kiai x8, Ancestral Guidance, Terrible Blows, Iajutsu Focus, Parry Magic, Blade of Devastation, Iajutsu Focus
Items: +STR Item, +DEX Item (+4 each), 2x Aptitude (Mace) +4 Pick 2d4/19-20/x7 (after MI)

Ending Stats: 23 (+6)/30 (+10)/16 (+3)/13 (+1)/13 (+1)/13 (+1)
Stats while raging: 27 (+8)/30 (+10)/20 (+5)/13 (+1)/13 (+1)/13 (+1)
HP (1d12 max)+(1d8x11)+(12x3) ~= 98
HP while raging ~= 122
Touch AC 20
Touch AC while raging 18
Saves +8/+13/+8
Saves while raging +8/+13/+10
Full Attack (raging) +20/+18/+18/+20/+18/+18
Full PA Leap Attack w/ AOO's and Kiai after killing someone:
+28 (AOO)/+28 (AOO)/+28 (AOO)/+28 (AOO)/+28 (AOO)/+28 (AOO)/+28 (AOO)/+28 (AOO)/+28 (AOO)/+28 (AOO)/+28 (Kiai)/+28 (Kiai)/+28 (Kiai)/+28 (Kiai)/+28 (Kiai)/+28 (Kiai)/+28 (Kiai)/+28 (Kiai)/+28/+28/+26/+26/+26/+26 (ignored due to natual 1*)/+28 (natural crit*)/+28 (natural crit*)/+28/+28 = 27 hits, 10 of which are crits
*10% crit chance over 20 attacks = 2 "guaranteed" hits, 5% miss chance = 1 "guaranteed" miss

Damage: (1d4 + 4 magic + 8 str + 1 subtle cut + 1d6 blitz + 12 blitz + 2 murderous intent + 24 power attack x 2 leap attack) x 7 crit damage x 10 attacks + (1d4 + 4 magic + 8 str + 1 subtle cut + 1d6 blitz + 12 blitz + 2 murderous intent + 24 power attack x 2 leap attack) x 17 attacks - 4 damage offhand x 4 attacks + 27 CON from subtle cut = 5670 + 1377 - 16 + 27 CON ~= 7031 + 27 CON
Edit: I forgot the Combat School damage, so add about 134 damage to that.
Last edited by Miryafa on Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius »

I am not sure if under these rules you can still cast spells or use items in a grapple or if you are only allowed to do what is told here.

In any case, I think of making a revision to the grappling rules: if you want to perform any action in a grapple that is not a free, swift or immediate action then you must succeed on a grapple check against the opponents grapple DC. Failure means that you cannot perform that action. Concentration checks and somatic/verbal distinctions are no longer needed.

Does this sound ok?
Last edited by Dominicius on Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Dominicius wrote:I am not sure if under these rules you can still cast spells or use items in a grapple or if you are only allowed to do what is told here.

In any case, I think of making a revision to the grappling rules: if you want to perform an action in a grapple that is not a free, swift or immediate action then you must succeed on a grapple check against the opponents grapple DC. Failure means that you cannot perform that action. Concentration checks and somatic/verbal distinctions are no longer needed.

Does this sound ok?
No, that sounds retarded.

1) It's stupid that Wizards can cast quickened anything in a grapple, even when it has somatic components without making a check.

2) It's stupid that Wizards can't cast spells with no somatic or verbal or material component at all in a grapple. Because if you replace concentration checks with winning grapple checks, you are just telling Wizards to go play Smash Borthers as soon as they get into a grapple, because they will never fucking win a grapple check against anything unless they are octupos familiar grapple wizards.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius »

1) Stupid yes but also so simple that you do not need to explain it for more than 30 seconds.

2) Wizards still have a lot of ways to avoid grapple. Freedom of Movement, Heart of Water, Quickening something or staying out of grapple as best as they can. And there are also potential allies that can interfere.
Last edited by Dominicius on Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Dominicius wrote:2) Wizards still have a lot of ways to avoid grapple. Freedom of Movement, Heart of Water, Quickening something or staying out of grapple as best as they can. And there are also potential allies that can interfere.
Yes, Wizards do have other ways to get out of a grapple, such as a level 4 spell not on their list, a level 4 spell on their list from an obscure book, and mandatory quicken spell of something that gets them out of a grapple, so at least a 5th level spell.

But you know what, it's fucking terrible to make every single monster a stupid puzzle monster on the Wizard where he has to have one of those three things.

I mean seriously, what the fuck does a Wizard do if they don't have Complete Champion and aren't level 9 yet?

Oh right, go play Smash brothers.

That's fucking stupid. Just admit that your attempt to simplify the grapple rules infinity fold results in serious negative consequences and isn't a good idea instead of trying to justify it.

Here, how about whenever someone grapples you, you can't do anything except cast a spell either yourself, or from an item. Nothing but cast a spell, you can't grapple back, you can't escape artist, only cast spells or cast spells from items.

Now you could point out how this makes Fighters and Rogues go play smash brothers, but I can think of three whole ways a level 7 Fighter can cast spells, so I guess it's totally okay to puzzle monster, because there are three ways out, none of which come on until level 7.
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius »

Ok, how about this: Like with Escape Artist you substitute your Concentration check for your grapple check but only if you wish to cast a spell. If you wish to cast a spell with somatic components then you take a -8 penalty.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Dominicius wrote:Ok, how about this: Like with Escape Artist you substitute your Concentration check for your grapple check but only if you wish to cast a spell. If you wish to cast a spell with somatic components then you take a -8 penalty.
Okay, so now you've proven you don't have an understanding of what the average grapple RNG looks like.

What are you trying to gain by this? It doesn't make it any simpler, all it does is make it harder/impossible for Wizards to cast spells in a grapple because you are putting things one RNGs that are usually 10-20 higher than them.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius »

Ok the, how about this. To cast a spell you can either:

Roll Size + BAB + Str Mod vrs Opponent's Grapple DC.
Roll Concentration + Your Base CL vrs Opponent's Grapple DC.

If you try using a spell with Somatic Components then you take a -5 penalty on both rolls.
Last edited by Dominicius on Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Dominicius wrote:Ok the, how about this. To cast a spell you can either:

Roll Size + BAB + Str Mod vrs Opponent's Grapple DC.
Roll Concentration + Your Base CL vrs Opponent's Grapple DC.

If you try using a spell with Somatic Components then you take a -5 penalty on both rolls.
Again, what are you trying to do that isn't accomplished better with the actual rules that already exist.

Now you are making it about as likely that they succeed on the check as under the current rules, but you made grappling more complicated than it was. I'm not sure where you have diverted at all, whether it is easier or harder.

What the fuck is your goal, to change the grapple rules to something else because you want to have sex with the idea of change?

If your goal is to make it harder to cast spells while grappled, you may be slightly succeeding. If your goal is to make it less complicated, you are failing. If your goal is to make it easier, you might be succeeding.

What the fuck is your goal in making arbitrary stupid changes?
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius »

The Tome rules did not provide me with any clarity regarding what I cannot do in a grapple. So I've made my own rules that give me that clarity.

Anyway, here is what the revised Tome Grapple rules look like. I tried to keep the changes to a minimum.


Grapple

Grapple is collectively 3 separate maneuvers that all fall under the super-heading of "grappling". Any grapple attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless your attack has the edge.

All grappling has the following consequences:

No Threatened Squares - you don’t threaten any squares while grappling.

No Dexterity Bonus - You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.) However, opponent attacking into the grapple have a 25% chance of hitting your opponent if you have the Edge on him.

No Movement - You can’t move while grappling unless you use the Lift maneuver.

Restriction On Action - If you want to perform an action in a grapple that is not a free, swift or immediate action then you must succeed on a grapple check against the opponents grapple DC. Failure means that you cannot perform that action. Special: if the action is casting a spell then the caster can roll his Concentration + his Base CL against the grapple DC.


Grab On

Sometimes, you want to attach yourself to a larger creature, getting inside their reach and then repeatedly stabbing them or simply weighing them down. As an attack action you may attempt to grab on to an opponent.

Grabbing on to an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity and requires a check with the same bonuses as a melee attack. The DC to grab on to an opponent is their Touch AC plus their BAB. If you have 5 ranks of Climb or Ride, you get a +2 synergy bonus on this maneuver for each skill.

Holding on: Once you've attached yourself to your opponent, you go wherever they go. Move in to their space, and move where they do automatically (this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity or count against your movement in any way). You may attack with any light or one handed weapon, and your opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus against you.

Being Held on to: If another creature has grabbed on to your character, their weight counts against your carrying capacity. If you're overloaded, you may be unable to move or even collapse until you shake your opponent off. You can attempt to attack a creature holding on to you, but your strength modifier is halved for such attacks and your attacks are at -4. You may attempt to shake your opponent off as an attack action by making a check with a bonus equal to your melee attack or Escape Artist and a DC of 10 + the greatest of your opponent's BAB, Climb Ranks, or Ride Ranks.

Edge Options: If you have the edge on an opponent when you grab them, they may not attack you at all once you have grabbed on to them. Further, grabbing on to an opponent does not provoke an attack of opportunity.


Hold Down

Sometimes you want to pin an opponent to the ground. First, make a touch attack. Then, make a Grapple Check (BAB + Strength Modifier + Special Size Modifier) with a DC of 10 + Defender's Grapple Check Modifier. If you succeed, your opponent is pinned for one round. They can't move, and you may put ropes or manacles on them if you wish with an attack action. At the end of any turn you are pinning your opponent, you may inflict unarmed or constriction damage (not an action). With subsequent attack actions, you may attack with natural weapons or light weapons with no penalty.

Escaping a Pin: If you're pinned you can attempt to fight back, but you're prone and you suffer an additional -4 penalty to attack the creature pinning you (generally a -8 total penalty to attack your attacker). You can get out with an attack action by making a Grapple or Escape Artist check with a DC of 10 + your opponent's Grapple Modifier.

Edge Options: If you're pinning an opponent and your attacks have the edge, your opponent cannot attack you or anyone else until they get free. Furthermore, if anyone else attacks them, they are considered helpless.


Lift

Sometimes you want to put an opponent in your mouth or carry away a struggling princess. Make a touch attack and then make a Grapple Check with a DC equal to 10 + your opponent's Grapple modifier. If you succeed, your opponent is hefted into the air. You may move around freely while carrying your opponent (their weight counts against your limits of course). You may perform a coup de grace or swallow whole action on a character you have lifted, but doing so ends the lift whether it succeeds or fails.

Escaping a Lift: When you've been lifted, you cannot move under your own power, but you can continue to attack. Attacks against the creature which has lifted you are at a -4 penalty. You can also attempt to escape with an attack action by making a Grapple or Escape Artist check with a DC of 10 + your opponent's Grapple Modifier.

Edge Options: If you have the edge on an opponent you have lifted, they may not attack you or anyone else until they escape while you are allowed to threaten any squares around you.
Last edited by Dominicius on Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

So, I'm a bit confused on the Favoured Classes thing. I was under the impression that, say, an Elven Wizard could always take Elven Wizard Substitution Levels, and there really aren't a lot of Racial Substitutions for Humans, so does the RoW entry mean that an Elven Wizard can take the substitution levels of any race, and that Humans can take, say, Orc Fighter substitution levels??
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Koumei »

Okay, Elf is favoured class... Wizard? So if you're an Elf and a Wizard, you can take any Wizard substitution level - Elf, Gnome, Kobold, fucking Manticore, whatever.

Human is favoured class: your mum. So if you're a Human and anything at all (you probably do have a class), you can take any substitution level - so you can be a Human Elf Wizard or a Human Kobold Sorcerer, or both at the same time if you think multiclassing those two is a good idea (it isn't).
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

Ok, glad I'm not the only one who read it that way.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by erik »

I suppose it makes sense. Those races have an extra affinity with those classes (or human adaptability to any class). Presumably they'd pick it up by studying how those other races pull off their quirky variances.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

Or by studying the art of the class in general.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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