Races of War

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CatharzGodfoot
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

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Post by Koumei »

Derp, good point.
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Post by Draculmaulkee »

The monster conversion methods given are not calculating the ECL correctly. Using the elite array supposedly increases the CR of a creature by one. A PC who plays as a powerful race under these rules is treated as 1 ECL higher AND receives penalties to stat modifiers as if the original entry used the elite array.

Look at the one of the example conversions given: the "playable" ogre race is presented as an ECL 4 character (despite the base MM write-up having a CR of 3) and a similar ability score distribution (if the ability score generation is equivalent to the elite array anyway). ECL 4 is better than the ECL 6 calculated under vanilla 3.5 rules, but a PC generated using Frank and K's rules is a CR weaker than their character level indicates.

The actual method should either entail a powerful race having an ECL equal to CR+1 and ability modifiers calculated as if the base race write-up used 10's and 11's, or ability modifiers should be calculated as if the elite array was used and ECL equals CR.
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virgil
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Post by virgil »

Campaigns very commonly have better than elite array before racial stat modifiers.

A *playable* ogre has PC gear appropriate for its level, whereas a MM ogre has some sticks and a dead animal, which is why the CR is less than the ECL.
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Post by Draculmaulkee »

Good point - magic items need to be factored into CR calculations...unfortunately we don't have NPC gear guidelines for the Wish economy. Still, being an Ogre 4 seems underwhelming compared to a Tome Barbarian 4.

EDIT: On second thought, if the +1 ECL is supposed to correct for better than elite array ability scores and PC gear, this is more indicative of the Challenge Rating system's failure to account for magic items.
Last edited by Draculmaulkee on Fri May 01, 2015 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cgf
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Re: Races of War

Post by cgf »

Username17 wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:42 am
Here are some relatively simple character conversions:
Gnoll (Minimum Level 2)
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  • Medium Size
  • 30' movement
  • Humanoid Type (Gnoll subtype)
  • Darkvision 60'
  • +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma
  • Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Simple & Martial Weapons, and the Flindbar.
  • +1 level in the first Divine Spellcasting class a Gnoll takes.
  • Scent.
  • +1 Natural Armor.
  • Favored Classes: Ranger and Druid
  • Automatic Languages: Gnoll, Common
  • Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Blink Dog, Giant, Goblin, Infernal, Loxo, Orc, Sphinx, Sylvan, Worg.
  • 2 Starting Hit Dice (2d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 5 skill points; +3 Fort Save; +1 BAB)


Bugbear (Minimum Level 3)

  • Medium Size
  • 30' movement
  • Humanoid Type (Goblinoid subtype)
  • Darkvision 60'
  • +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma
  • Proficiency in Light Armor, Shields, Shuriken, and all Rogue Weapons.
  • +2 levels in the first Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike class a Bugbear takes.
  • +3 Natural Armor.
  • +4 Racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
  • Favored Classes: Rogue and Ninja
  • Automatic Languages: Goblin, Common
  • Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Draconic, Elvish, Giant, Gnoll, Orc, Undercommon.
  • 3 Starting Hit Dice (3d8 HP; 4 + Int Bonus x 6 skill points; +1 Fort, +3 Reflex, +1 Will; +2 BAB)


For "+1 level in the first...", is this supposed to give just the divine spellcasting or sneak attack progression? Or all class abilities?
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Re: Races of War

Post by Omegonthesane »

Thread necromancy is actively encouraged here rather than making a hundred new threads for a topic that keeps coming up, but even by that standard, 12 years and the public flouncing of Username17 is a new level.

Given that it describes "levels in a X class" and not "levels of X feature", I'd assume they get all class abilities except the extra hit dice. The original writer is never coming back to tell you one way or another though.
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K
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Re: Races of War

Post by K »

Omegonthesane wrote:
Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:40 am
Thread necromancy is actively encouraged here rather than making a hundred new threads for a topic that keeps coming up, but even by that standard, 12 years and the public flouncing of Username17 is a new level.

Given that it describes "levels in a X class" and not "levels of X feature", I'd assume they get all class abilities except the extra hit dice. The original writer is never coming back to tell you one way or another though.
As the person that wrote that mechanic (though Frank posted it), I can tell you that I meant all class abilities not tied to HD. So no HP, Saves, BAB or other HD-like things.

Also note that every sample race had a joke language thrown in. 'We thought we were funny.
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Re: Races of War

Post by fbmf »

cgf wrote: Thanks, K! I was really hoping you were still here. And I'm glad that 15 years [???] later you still remember what you were thinking. I don't remember why I didn't ask when you two first posted RoW (or why I didn't ask whether it should include death attack classes).

I get that Blink Dog and Loxo were jokes (Sphinx kind of makes sense). But what was the joke in Bugbear?
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Re: Races of War

Post by Koumei »

Probably the bit where Bugbears are good at picking up Elven as a chosen language.
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Re: Races of War

Post by cgf »

Koumei wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:43 am
Probably the bit where Bugbears are good at picking up Elven as a chosen language.
Maybe, but look at this:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm wrote:Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
They're canonically at war with both the elves and the gnolls, so it makes sense that they would learn their languages.


K, how much of "Method 3" did you finish? It seems to use the SRD attribute adjustments rather than 'subtract the elite array' and, for races that don't have many abilities, gives +(HD - 1) levels of abilities in the first flavor-matching class you take? Other than that it mostly cleaves to "Method 2"?

Or was it secretly more involved, with something like generic classes for different sorts of monsters?
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Re: Races of War

Post by K »

cgf wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:21 am

K, how much of "Method 3" did you finish? It seems to use the SRD attribute adjustments rather than 'subtract the elite array' and, for races that don't have many abilities, gives +(HD - 1) levels of abilities in the first flavor-matching class you take? Other than that it mostly cleaves to "Method 2"?

Or was it secretly more involved, with something like generic classes for different sorts of monsters?
Method 3 started a lot like my design process for the Tome Monk where I figured out what abilities you could expect at certain levels from looking at the published material. I started compiling those lists and creating psuedo-generic classes like the one's I wrote for Tome of Fiends in the hopes of getting 90% of a published monster out of the classes at the level of the listed monster, but adding or subtracting levels gave you an easy and organic way to add and remove stats and abilities.

I quickly realized that I was writing a whole new game, for free. I mean, 90% of 3e's design is in the spells and monster designs... once you start redesigning a good 45% of the game like the monsters, you might as well just write a whole new game without the sets of legacy assumptions.
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Re: Races of War

Post by cgf »

K wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:44 pm
Method 3 started a lot like my design process for the Tome Monk where I figured out what abilities you could expect at certain levels from looking at the published material. I started compiling those lists and creating psuedo-generic classes like the one's I wrote for Tome of Fiends in the hopes of getting 90% of a published monster out of the classes at the level of the listed monster, but adding or subtracting levels gave you an easy and organic way to add and remove stats and abilities.

I quickly realized that I was writing a whole new game, for free. I mean, 90% of 3e's design is in the spells and monster designs... once you start redesigning a good 45% of the game like the monsters, you might as well just write a whole new game without the sets of legacy assumptions.
I see. That's more extreme than I imagined -- although I guess anything less would be too hand-wavy.

Would have been amazing if you / the Gaming Den had done it anyway (or made that new game), but a new game for free is a pretty big ask.
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Re: Races of War

Post by Prak »

Also, we can see how well that worked with the "complete new free game" that did get made here...
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