The Gaming Den

Maybe the constant pain and depression of the intelligent undead coupled with the fact that they are not only completely unable to overcome their situation, but are also cursed to exist forever causes me to think that the majority of them would end as whiny bitches rather than stoic badasses.

So I see the actual option as more goth, but the general effect as utterly emo. What most lead me to believe in the inherent emoness of the option was the last bit you wrote on vamps.

Living in constant, eternal torment would likely drive them mad, actually. They wouldn't be all "oh woe is me", but more "we wants the precious, yes..."

Cielingcat at [unixtime wrote:1188591578[/unixtime]]Living in constant, eternal torment would likely drive them mad, actually. They wouldn't be all "oh woe is me", but more "we wants the precious, yes..."

Well I would figure that undead would go through the stages of acceptance or whatever.

So you'd have some undead in their Emo depression stage, other undead pissed off about it, some seeking to actually regain their humanity (bargaining), others who actually try to pretend like they are still alive (denial) and so forth.

Then finally they'd just accept their condition.

Think of it like this:
They did the badass thing for a few years, realized that they couldn't die and could take advantage of everything. Then they realized that they had won. What now? Well, now it sucks. Bitch about it.

SunTzuWarmaster at [unixtime wrote:1188612881[/unixtime]]Think of it like this:
They did the badass thing for a few years, realized that they couldn't die and could take advantage of everything. Then they realized that they had won. What now? Well, now it sucks. Bitch about it.

yeah, but there's a difference between emo bitching and going to the bar and bitching over a pint of blood...

SunTzuWarmaster at [unixtime wrote:1188612881[/unixtime]]Then they realized that they had won. What now?

Gardening. Clearly.

So, take any natural human mental disorder and amplify it? That's what I'm getting here..

For what, specifically? I'm not sure what you're referring to. What have the amplified mental disorders?

Emo undead.. Delusional undead... psychopathic undead.. they exhibit very flawed human behaviors in unnatural lifespans and methods.
What is a serial killer had an eternity to develop killing methods and enact them on the population around them, for the most part unworried about being harmed by the populous at large?

To what end would a psychosis like that 'evolve' or exaggerate, wayyyy beyond normal human range!
Maybe we can't even predict the outcome since there's no real-life comparison.

I was wondering if there were going to be any more classes/PrCs for the Tome of Necromancy?

Can the Necromantic creation feats be taken more than once? If I want to be followed around by a shit load of Shadows can I just keep taking Whispers of the Otherworld?

Game On,
fbmf

Doesn't sound any worse than taking several different creation feats. ie its a great way to make the rest of the group hate you for being an ass and hogging the spotlight every time combat starts. Probably all the time out of combat too if you make intelligent undead.

Doubling up on [Leadership] or [Necromantic] feats is game breaking if the rest of the team wants to play World of Warcraft rather than Warcraft. Every step you take towards having your own personal menagerie, whether it be hiring an army of mercenaries, summoning a hit squad of demons, training a sloth of warbears, or raising a force of the undead takes a step away from D&D as a skirmish based game and towards D&D as a backdrop for a turn based strategy game.

The enemies you fight and the challenges you overcome can no longer be an infernal basilisk in the field if you are fielding an army. The challenge has to be occupying the dark elven kingdom rather than simply killing the dark elf high priestess.

If you are going in that direction then the answer is "go for it" and if not the answer is "you had better not."

-Username17

The fact that each minion can summon more minions and have Leadership/Undead Creation of their own is just... ridiculous? Awesome?
"Hall of mirrors" effect.

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1200950906[/unixtime]]The fact that each minion can summon more minions and have Leadership/Undead Creation of their own is just... ridiculous? Awesome?
"Hall of mirrors" effect.

Only if you let the PC choose feats for the undead created, which I can see no real reason to do.

Though some undead can create their own undead, but the whole "commanding others to command others" doesn't seem a combat tactic. Even the "obey his commands as if they were my own" still means you are shouting orders in the middle of combat.

In hindsight, I think all minion creation in DnD needs a massive overhaul. This is one area where we've continued a bad deal rather than fixing it.

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1200927176[/unixtime]]Doubling up on [Leadership] or [Necromantic] feats is game breaking if the rest of the team wants to play World of Warcraft rather than Warcraft. Every step you take towards having your own personal menagerie, whether it be hiring an army of mercenaries, summoning a hit squad of demons, training a sloth of warbears, or raising a force of the undead takes a step away from D&D as a skirmish based game and towards D&D as a backdrop for a turn based strategy game.

The enemies you fight and the challenges you overcome can no longer be an infernal basilisk in the field if you are fielding an army. The challenge has to be occupying the dark elven kingdom rather than simply killing the dark elf high priestess.

If you are going in that direction then the answer is "go for it" and if not the answer is "you had better not."

-Username17

What if everyone in the party is doing that kinda thing though? The Cleric has his horde of Undead, the mage has his horde of various summoned creatures, the fighter has his leadership menagerie, and the rogue is commanding a thieve's guild. The party takes the role of commanders working together towards a common goal and lets the army take out the troops, while they tackle more delicate and important goals, so the necromancer still gets a horde of undead following him around and answering his beck and call, but they don't upstage the party. Adventuring is the same, with maybe each character having a body guard, and people still get to strut down main street attended by a wave of death and destruction.

Then Frank's answer is even more true. I don't know about you, but I personally am not a fan of "The Mass Combat Mini-Game." Really. I don't want it to be, "Minions! Attack now!" followed by "Minions! Attack over there now!"

DnD is about a group of people being full of awesome. A small group.

At least for me.


But yes, your point may still stand. If everyone is doing it, it's not a problem. As long as everyone is ok with simply being commanders.

I repeat:

Me wrote:The party takes the role of commanders working together towards a common goal and lets the army take out the troops, while they tackle more delicate and important goals,

The necromancer gets to be followed by a horde of undead between missions, but during missions that number is cut down to one or two, while the others are deployed to be grunts, and PCs are doing the actual dungeon delving.

Right, that'd be the sane way to do it but its not in the rules. You'd be relying on people self nerfing in order to keep things manageable. This isn't even not discovering loopholes type self nerfing. Its immediately obvious that not bringing all your mooks to a fight is going to be less powerful.

So your proposal would work in a game where people did that and fail in a game where people didn't.

And they don't really have any incentive to do it.

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1201216577[/unixtime]]And they don't really have any incentive to do it.

Screen time.

-Username17

Good will towards the other players and not stretching combat into hours(which it already occasionally does...)

but what do you say about the suggestion, frank?

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1200927176[/unixtime]]If you are going in that direction then the answer is "go for it" and if not the answer is "you had better not."

If you want to be powerful, play a cleric:
Your level 9 feat is Command - you gain a henchmen (iHenchLevel = iCurLevel-2).

The henchmen is human full-BAB class, his feats are (level 7):
1 - A Feast Unknown (Ghouls and Ghasts up to max)
1 - Body Assembledge (Skeletons and Zombies up to max)
3 - Command (come on, you had to see this coming)
6 - Whispers of Otherworld (Shadows up to limit)
He is in charge of the army.

Henchmen's Henchmen preferably human, probably a caster, probably a sorcerer to get high charisma (level 5):
1 - Body Assembledge (skeletons and zombies up to limit)
1 - Enervating Touch
3 - Control Spawn (wights up to limit)
Secondary caster - he buffs shit all day

There, are you happy now?

Somewhere between Body Assembledge, Control Spawn, Whispers of Otherworld, and A Feast Unknown, you can have LOTS of undead following you around like puppies. You might as well be able to take any one of them twice because it isn't particularly more powerful than taking one of the others.

Trees of undead command are dangerous. A canny individual will try to take out a few commanders and watch the ensuing chaos.