The Gaming Den

Create the Broken Ones: Any creature reduced to Wisdom of 0 by a Widow Queen of 5th level can be turned into a unique kind of spawn, Broken Ones. These creatures have all the abilities of the originals, but they gain the Mindless trait and must be commanded by the Widow Queen to perform any action. A Broken One has a Wisdom score of 1.


This ability is pretty straightforward in itself. The broken ones themselves are very vague. Are they even undead? I assume not. The main question I have about them is their need to be commanded.

Now if they are living or unliving then they have things they must do to survive. Breathing i'm sure is automatic if needed, but what about eating? Since they are living how do undead treat them?

As written they remind me of that flavorful but ineffecient fiendbinder class from TOM. With minions that follow you around and use up your combat actions, rather then the "skeleton in the closet" assassins that the widow queen seems to be more set up for.

I'm not criticizing I love the class (as well as the others) but I'm unsure how it works.

Broken Ones and Poisoned Hearts do not gain or change any types or subtypes save the listed Mindless subtype on the Broken One. The Broken Ones can only follow one order set at a time because they are mindless. Like skeletons you can give them orders that will often not require much in the way of combat reorganization. "Follow me and murder anything that attacks anyone in the present company." is usually a pretty decent standing order for mindless foes. Poisoned Hearts have their full mental capacities and can easily break a game - but not any more than a Conjurer or Enchanter of 14th level already can.

-Username17

Is A Feast Unknown supposed to let you command Ghouls of your CR, rather than CR 2 less than yours?

Someone just raised something on the Old Wiki:

The Stranger with the Burning Eyes PrC requires spontaneous casting and magic jar. And 9 ranks in K (Religion). Sorcerors don't have Religion as a knowledge.

So, what's the deal?

Maxus wrote:Someone just raised something on the Old Wiki:

The Stranger with the Burning Eyes PrC requires spontaneous casting and magic jar. And 9 ranks in K (Religion). Sorcerors don't have Religion as a knowledge.

So, what's the deal?

Given that Frank seems to prefer more specialized spontaneous casters to the sorcerer, I think the Stranger PrC is intended for Dread Necromancers (Heroes of Horror version), who do have Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill.

Necro-ing the Tome of Necromancy thread? Doubleplusawesome.

Quantumboost wrote:Is A Feast Unknown supposed to let you command Ghouls of your CR, rather than CR 2 less than yours?

That's a good question. The ghoul template is pretty cool but not gamebreakingly so. A Feast Unknown doesn't have a level requirement (so could be taken at level 1) and lacks the Special note of Body Assemblage:

Body Assemblage wrote:Special: A first or second level character can create undead less than their own CR, but each undead creature counts as two for control purposes.

On the other hand, this:

Necromantic Creation Feats wrote:The maximum CR of an undead creature created with these rites is two less than the creator’s character level.

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Maxus wrote:The Stranger with the Burning Eyes PrC requires spontaneous casting and magic jar. And 9 ranks in K (Religion). Sorcerors don't have Religion as a knowledge.

zomg Frank hates sorcerers?

Seriously, skills are flavor.
The "good skills" such as UMD are a sick way of providing level-appropriate abilities to noncasters, where they are necessary. Skills on full casters don't do shit when not backed by a [Skill] feat, and that includes "good skills", not to mention bear lore.

Per the DMG, it is extremely uncouth to express prestige class requirements as explicit character level requirements. This is kinda stupid for a game that fetishizes actual numerical levels, but hey. This is why we have # ranks in a skill, spell levels, specific spells, and looooong lists of feats instead.

Skill ranks, like spell levels, are a form of disguising level reqs via an existing hard cap (level+3 for skills, HD/2 for spells). Soft caps (cross-class ranks, cross-class point-buy) can be bypassed by jumping through a number of hoops - this is why they cannot be used to disguise level caps (also, jumping through hoops should be discouraged). Basically, assume you buy a skill at the most favorable rate, figure out the minimum level necessary. If it is the defining level requirement, use an actual level requirement instead. If it isn't, feel free to disregard it.

Nachtigallerator wrote:Given that Frank seems to prefer more specialized spontaneous casters to the sorcerer, I think the Stranger PrC is intended for Dread Necromancers (Heroes of Horror version), who do have Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill.

Tome of Necromancy Intro wrote:the classical Necromancer does not function under the rules as written. Vampires can't run or be staked, there aren't any prestige classes that make you any more of a necromancer than you are with the base classes

I do think it's meant for Sorcerers.

Starmaker wrote:

Nachtigallerator wrote:Given that Frank seems to prefer more specialized spontaneous casters to the sorcerer, I think the Stranger PrC is intended for Dread Necromancers (Heroes of Horror version), who do have Knowledge (Religion) as a class skill.

Tome of Necromancy Intro wrote:the classical Necromancer does not function under the rules as written. Vampires can't run or be staked, there aren't any prestige classes that make you any more of a necromancer than you are with the base classes

I do think it's meant for Sorcerers.

The Dread Necromancer is a base class from the book "Heroes of Horror". It's a Warmage/Beguiler-style caster which has a whole bunch of Necromancy spells. Frank and K even called it out in the Revised Necromancer's handbook as one of the three big necromancy classes (Wizard and Cleric being the others).

It isn't to be confused with the True Necromancer, which is a dual-caster prestige class and total crap.

Given that the DN can meet the prerequisites ridiculously earlier than a single-classed sorcerer without other PrCs can, it's very much more likely that it's the intended lead-in class.

He also sez in the Necromancer's Handbook that Sorcerers just don't make good Necromancers because a lot of the "iconic" necromancy spells (Magic Jar, Animate Dead, etc.) are not spells that you're going to be slinging on a round to round basis. But when you have as few spells known as you do as a sorcerer, then every spell you pick needs to be very useful and also consistently useable.

Edit: Vaguely ninja'd by QB.

Blicero wrote:He also sez in the Necromancer's Handbook that Sorcerers just don't make good Necromancers because a lot of the "iconic" necromancy spells (Magic Jar, Animate Dead, etc.) are not spells that you're going to be slinging on a round to round basis. But when you have as few spells known as you do as a sorcerer, then every spell you pick needs to be very useful and also consistently useable.

Edit: Vaguely ninja'd by QB.

Well, the class was written as a Sorcerer or Dread Necromancer PrC, but I always assumed that Sorcerers would use one of the many feats that add a skill to your class list. They are super common.

The Stranger is a "Necromantic PrC," and not a "Necromancer PrC". You'll note that a Stranger isn't really better at being a necromancer than a straight caster. He's more of a specialist of a single tactic that is iconic to necromancy.

You'll note in the other PrCs that I wrote up a necromantic fighting guy PrC and a necromantic Rogue PrC too. I also just went weird in a lot of places (undead bees, anyone?).

I'm actually using that as a villain in the campaign I'm running, undead bees are actually kind of frightening.

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I'm actually using that as a villain in the campaign I'm running, undead bees are actually kind of frightening.

Nice! Drop me a line and tell me how it goes.

K wrote:Well, the class was written as a Sorcerer or Dread Necromancer PrC, but I always assumed that Sorcerers would use one of the many feats that add a skill to your class list. They are super common.

The Stranger is a "Necromantic PrC," and not a "Necromancer PrC". You'll note that a Stranger isn't really better at being a necromancer than a straight caster. He's more of a specialist of a single tactic that is iconic to necromancy.

I'm playing my second "Stranger" now. I took Knowledge Devotion to meet the skill prereq. I never even noticed that it grants one knowledge as a skill known before I made this guy.

I'm actually trying to use the Magic Jar ability offensively with this one, instead of just hijacking the strongest body that I can and sticking with it indefinitely (which I did with the last one). It is kind of challenging. I get resisted often, which wastes my actions, and I have to constantly worry about what happens if I jump into a body and it gets killed (so I try to possess an ally first, and then stay within range of them in the new body). I also have to keep my equipment as light as possible. I made his trinket a magical spell component pouch, which helps with that. Looking back, I should have made it a Handy Haversack.

Not needing Line of Sight or Effect to sense/possess things is quite awesome, though. That is probably my favorite part of the PrC so far. I can sense enemies on the other side of a wall, and jump into one of them before they even know we're there.

I've got to say that Lurker in the Swarm and Pumpkin King are just about my favorite classes ever. Especially after playing Sanitarium.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I've got to say that Lurker in the Swarm and Pumpkin King are just about my favorite classes ever. Especially after playing Sanitarium.

Boneblade Reaper, Bone Rider, Death King, and Speaker for the Dead all float my boat.

Pumpkin King is probably my favorite Tome PrC by far, though the second is Lurker in the Swarm, I love nature flavoured necromancy.

Prak_Anima wrote:Pumpkin King is probably my favorite Tome PrC by far, though the second is Lurker in the Swarm, I love nature flavoured necromancy.

It's weird, but...in general, I dig the Tome Martial classes. 'Scuse me, I'll make a thread for this...

Is an undead with the Unliving subtype immune to ability damage?

It appears that is maintains the normal undead immunity to physical ability score damage.

Yo, I need a clarification.

Master of the Seven Necromantic Mysteries wrote:Secrets of Negative Energy (Su): At 3rd level, The Master of the Seven Necromantic Mysteries may convert the damage from any spell with the cold, ice, fire, or acid subtype to instead inflict negative energy damage.

Is this ability supposed to affect any spell the Master casts or any spell cast in the Master's presence?

Hicks wrote:Yo, I need a clarification.

Master of the Seven Necromantic Mysteries wrote:Secrets of Negative Energy (Su): At 3rd level, The Master of the Seven Necromantic Mysteries may convert the damage from any spell with the cold, ice, fire, or acid subtype to instead inflict negative energy damage.

Is this ability supposed to affect any spell the Master casts or any spell cast in the Master's presence?

Just spells they cast. Otherwise it would be all spells everywhere, since there is no definite article. But the implication is that it affects their own spells because it's their own ability.

-Username17

Honestly, an ability to just reach out and change the energy type of spells in your area would be pretty killer

So cold, acid, fire, and "ice" would heal you if someone was dumb enough to try?

Lol.

For Valor wrote:So cold, acid, fire, and "ice" would heal you if someone was dumb enough to try?

Lol.

Precisely.

Dark Symmetry
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Medium
Target: One Creature.
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Willpower Negates
Spell Resistance: Yes.

Her hands slow down from the frenzied pace and the necromancer's shadow extends into the target's. The warrior's sword arm slows and holds fast. A smile flashes across her face, and she takes a step forward. The warrior unsteadily takes a step backwards, a look of panic crossing his face.

If the victim fails their saving throw, they are helpless and unable to voluntarily move until the spell is terminated. Further, if the caster moves while concentrating upon the spell, the victim simultaneously moves an equal distance in the same direction. If the victim is moved into an occupied space, he falls prone. If the victim is moved off a cliff, he falls.

Puppet Dance
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: S
Casting Time: 1Standard Action
Range: Close
Target: One Corporeal Creature.
Duration: Concentration
Saving Throw: Reflex Negates
Spell Resistance: Yes.

The necromancer holds her hands up with fingers apart, shadowy tendrils hang down from each finger, tapering into nonexistence before reaching her waist. As the spell reaches completion, larger tendrils appear above the target and hang down to anchor themselves in the victim's flesh.

If the victim fails their saving throw, they are helpless and unable to move voluntarily until the spell is terminated. This spell only affects creatures with a physical body. When the caster spends a standard action to concentrate on the spell, she may opt to have the victim move and perform a physical standard action. The caster cannot force the victim to use their spell knowledge (if any), and any attacks made by the victim use the caster's Base attack Bonus rather than their own.

How are these Necromany? Why would they not be an Enchantment (Compulsion) effect?

Game On,
fbmf

Well Sobering Skeletal Stillness (or whatever that alliterative name was) is Necromancy presumably because you're controlling the target's bones. Perhaps these are supposed to be similarly flavored. Beyond that, I don't know.