4e Quick Rules Primer

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Absentminded_Wizard
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4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

Link

WotC's posted a pdf of the rules primer they're handing out at the D&D experience.

Some of the big reveals (several of which I also posted on Nifty):

1. We have the official list of classes. Here they are, categorized by role:

Controller - Wizard
Defender - Fighter, Paladin
Leader - Cleric, Warlord
Striker - Ranger, Rogue, Warlock

Apparently, until and unless supplements add more controllers, every party has to have a wizard. :rolleyes:


2. Yep, you're supposed to use at will powers way more often than standard attacks.


3. What's that about fewer die rolls? If you use an attack that affects multiple targets, you have to make an attack roll for every target, though you only make one damage roll.


4. It looks like there are almost as many actions in 4e as in 3.5 (though I can't be sure, since I didn't collect all the 3.5 supplements). And you get 3 actions per round: 1 standard, 1 move, and 1 minor. Minor actions are not free actions; they're things like drawing/sheathing a weapon or opening a door.

You can use a minor or move action as a standard action, and you can use a minor action as a move action. Got that straight? I didn't think so. Yep, this stuff just got more complicated. The good news is that you can sheath a weapon, draw another one, and attack in the same round.


5. You can get a healing surge by taking a standard action called ""second wind," which also gives you a +2 to your defenses until your next turn. Apparently, this replaces Refocus as the action to take when you've got nothing else to do. Clerical healing powers apparently also heal you by your surge value and cost you one of your daily surges. Don't ask me why.


6. Per encounter powers refresh after 5 minutes, the duration of a "short rest" in 4e. I'm not sure what happens to the bookkeeping if the PCs don't take a short rest after every encounter.


7. Frank will be really happy about this one. They've explicitly defined the length of a day in 4e (for purposes of refreshing per day powers and healing surges), and it's even shorter than Frank's 4e day. You only need to rest for 6 hours.


8. You start out with 1 action point and get one more for every 2 encounters you live through until the end of the "day," when your action points are reset to 1. This sounds like a lot of bookkeeping.


9. No more keeping track of rounds. Everything that doesn't have a 1-round duration either uses the new saving-throw mechanic (which is officially confirmed, BTW) or lasts until the end of the encounter.


10. Reach only works on attacks, so you don't have to worry about provoking AoOs from opponents 2 squares away on your move, unless they have a special power called "threatening reach."


11. It's official that only rogues (unless some other class gets that special feature) can catch their opponents flat-footed at the beginning of combat.


12. Cover gives a static -2 penalty to attacks, even if it's 100%. WTF?


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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Crissa »

Wow. This seems like directly from the miniatures game. Is it possible this will have simultaneously more rules and less detail than Chainmail?

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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Harlune »

Aww... I thought they were adding a Fighter/Mage base class in the core line up.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Voss »

1 Well, yes. But the catch is the wizard is the role that you'd probably ditch first, or grab through some form of multiclassing/class training. Control apparently = AoE damage. At least on the sample wizard from the DDXP modules. If he's using at will powers, almost everyone is doing better damage.

4 You got the conversion wrong. You can go standard->move/minor, or move-> minor, but nothing converts up to standard.

9- durations. Ironically, there is an exception to this already- the wizard's Light spell has a 5 minute duration. Oops.


Harlune- Nope. The swordmage is apparently going to be buried in the FR campaign book, which is going to 'improved' by adding extra stupid. Including by adding landscapes that look like 'Yes' album covers. So there isn't any reason to buy it except the swordmage class.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by RandomCasualty »

Absentminded_Wizard at [unixtime wrote:1204272529[/unixtime]]
12. Cover gives a static -2 penalty to attacks, even if it's 100%. WTF?


This can't be. Even the design team isn't that stupid.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1204304703[/unixtime]]
Absentminded_Wizard at [unixtime wrote:1204272529[/unixtime]]
12. Cover gives a static -2 penalty to attacks, even if it's 100%. WTF?


This can't be. Even the design team isn't that stupid.

Yeah, "cover" probably doesn't include 100% cover now (which is called... 'You idiot, there's a wall there. Nothing can get through a wall').
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by RandomCasualty »

I sorta like the healing surge thing. It's a way to make hp an expendable resource and still allow clerics to heal at will. It also makes some characters beyond healing as well. So if you want that plot device guy who is gonna die and can't be healed.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by JonSetanta »

CatharzGodfoot at [unixtime wrote:1204305916[/unixtime]]
Yeah, "cover" probably doesn't include 100% cover now (which is called... 'You idiot, there's a wall there. Nothing can get through a wall').


Although, some gamers are either lacking in common sense or just made a logic blooper.
My current DM seemed to not know rules for cover very well a few weeks ago: my Sorcerer shot something and squated down behind a table, after which a kobold proceeded to hit him with an arrow.
The explanation: "It rolled really well." :bored:

IMHO:
#1: Missing a F/M by the name of "Swordmage" or w/e, but Warlord might be similar.

#2: That's fine.

#3: This should have been thought out more. BAD, BAD DESIGNERS!
You fight a horde of enemies, you make an attack roll for your spell for EACH ONE??? This can't possibly be true.
I'm fuckin taking 10 on every roll in encounters that I am sure I would overpower; checks, attacks, whatever. No use wasting time making 5+ rolls each turn.

#4: Slap on the wrist for this one. Took a complex process of defining actions in 3.x, and doubled complexity. DUMB.
Although, are you sure you got it right, A-Wiz? What you state would grant every character up to 2 standard actions each round. Sure it's not the reverse?

#5: Stupid. I'll come up with some kind of replacement for that "surge" shit.

#6: This is OK I guess. At least they've finally accepted that not everything must be at-will, 3/day, or 1/day. Remember in AD&D when some monsters had spells to cast every 10 minutes, sometimes? heh.. that was workable, but in 3.x they scrapped it.
Well, here it is again.

#7: Nothing should be calculated on a 24 hour cycle (what if your world or plane runs on a 13.76 hour day?), but 6 hours is .... weird. I don't know about this.

#8: Hey! Remember that discussion a while ago about charging attacks and saving them for later?
The issue of defining exactly what condition would charge special attacks?
And the problem of bashing on mooks to build up that Awesome Finisher against the 'boss' in the final room?
Here it is.
WOTC could have benefited from the thread here on that subject.
Guess we'll see how this plays out by watching fan reactions.
My prediction: action points won't have the diversity that they do in Eberooni, so blowing a wad here and there won't bend the balance of encounters too much.

#9: Yesssssss :jump:
They finally got the hint that almost no one likes tracking durations or buffs crapping out mid-battle!
Too late that they're years behind most house ruled campaigns.

#10: FUCK SHIT MOTHERFUCKER WHY

#11: Not in my game, they won't. It will be everyone or no-one when it comes to flanking/flat-footed. None of this Holy Order of Special Rogues bullshit, especially with the ability-that-isn't-an-ability that lets them detect magical traps in 3.x, and the UMD restriction (Rogues only.. well.. mostly).
Gods, hope they didn't carry that exclusion over too...

#12: I don't think that's accurate. Mostly because of Catharz's statement. Common sense, you know?
Behind something bigger = it's not cover, it's called 'the attack hits the thing in front of you'.
Peeking even just your head or arm out would be cover, though.

Ho hum. Break's over, back to work.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Crissa »

The pepper sauce is... chipotle sauce, a type of barbecue sauce. And what was weird about the rice?

I don't eat there because I'm from California, and have much better options next door to the damn things.

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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Talisman »

Here we go...

#1. So, we've got one Controller and three Strikers...huh? As big a fan as I am of the warlock, this is just stupid. They shoulda' either made the warlock a Controller or held it for a later book and kept the Sorcerer. :razz:

#2. Sure; whatever.

#3. Stupid.

#4. I think AbsentWiz must have it backwards...Voss's progression makes a bit more sense. Standard/Move/Minor...well, it doesn't seem much worse than Standard/Move/Swift or Immediate/Free. Do free actions still exist? Does it cost me a minor action to drop my sword or shout a warning? :confused:

#5. First part: fine. I actually like this. Second part: huh? It's...weird and counter-intuitive...I don't hate it, but it sure doesn't make a lot of sense. :thumb: / :wtf:

#6. Okay...

#7. Profoundly stupid. I disagree with Sig; a day is 24 hours. If your gameworld's "day" is longer or shorter, then you're the deviant and you have to deal with it. :ugone2far:

#8. So, if you only have one or two encounters in a day, you gain squat. And if you don't use these AP's in the course of the day, you gain squat. Nice. :disgusted:

#9. Personally, I think this is pretty dumb...not to mention the fact that they've already broken their own rules. Whatever.

#10. Um...yeah...why am I carrying this glaive around, again? :flames:

#11. [sigh] :disgusted:

#12. Uh-huh. :rolleyes:
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Voss »

Sig- swordmage won't be in the PH. Someone at the thing this weekend(and thursday) said it was going to be buried in the FR campaign book.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Leress »

Talisman, free actions still exist and they can be done anytime in a round (even other people's turn). You get as many as you want (within reason)
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Harlune »

Have they actually said what the Sorc's purpose is going to be?

Have they dumped the idea of making the psion a core class again and wedged the sorc into it's place like with the 3rd edition?

Also, I'm somewhat confused by the Wizard being listed as an controller since I seem to recall them saying, in that awful teaser book they put out, that they were removing most of the wizard's control type spells and bringing them back to the old direct-damage spell tossing blasters they used to be.

Finally, does anyone else find it cute as hell that they're trying to make the support classes/buffbots/healbitches sound special, important, and powerful by calling them 'Leaders' instead?

"Hail Travelers, I am Xornor, a great and powerful Warlord from the north. I have lead and inspired entire armies to battle."

"No, you're a frick'n bard with a fancy name, now shut up, get in the back row and do your little healing and buffing chants while the more important classes actually kill stuff."
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Voss »

the flavor of the warlord is a little different from the bard. More a skirmish level tactician. The bard will be a little weirder when they get around to it. otherworldy patrons have been mention.

Sorcerer hints are wacky. Probably a blaster. which could mean striker or controller, with the stupid way they've defined the roles

psion will come along eventually in the PH II III or IV, when they do the psionics power source.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Zherog »

Harlune at [unixtime wrote:1204322641[/unixtime]]Also, I'm somewhat confused by the Wizard being listed as an controller since I seem to recall them saying, in that awful teaser book they put out, that they were removing most of the wizard's control type spells and bringing them back to the old direct-damage spell tossing blasters they used to be.


When they say "controller" they don't mean a guy who puts up walls of force and shit like that. No, as best as I can tell, "Controller" means: guy who deals damage to lots of enemies at once, because throwing fireballs around the room is fuckin' cool!
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by RandomCasualty »

Zherog at [unixtime wrote:1204325220[/unixtime]]
When they say "controller" they don't mean a guy who puts up walls of force and shit like that. No, as best as I can tell, "Controller" means: guy who deals damage to lots of enemies at once, because throwing fireballs around the room is fuckin' cool!


The rpoblem is that I think they actually mean both. You're going to get sleep and all that crap, but you also get fireballs. So I think it'll mean we're back to the point where the wizard can do everything.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Leress »

Zherog at [unixtime wrote:1204325220[/unixtime]]
Harlune at [unixtime wrote:1204322641[/unixtime]]Also, I'm somewhat confused by the Wizard being listed as an controller since I seem to recall them saying, in that awful teaser book they put out, that they were removing most of the wizard's control type spells and bringing them back to the old direct-damage spell tossing blasters they used to be.


When they say "controller" they don't mean a guy who puts up walls of force and shit like that. No, as best as I can tell, "Controller" means: guy who deals damage to lots of enemies at once, because throwing fireballs around the room is fuckin' cool!


Wizards also get sleep as an ability, along with magic missle (that is not auto hit). The get damage spells for crowds and singles and they have debilitating spells as well.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Koumei »

Harlune at [unixtime wrote:1204322641[/unixtime]]
Have they dumped the idea of making the psion a core class again


We can hope so.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Voss »

I think the ratio is telling, however. Out of the example powers, the at will ones are- flavor or damage, the encounter powers are just damage, and the daily powers are a choice of damage or a very unpredictable debuff.

Sleep slows the targets (no matter if you hit or miss). On their action, the targets roll saves. On a 10+, the slow effect goes away, and that target is fine. If the spell hit, on a 9 or less, they fall unconscious, and roll saves each round thereafter- on a 10+ they wake up.

Personally, I hate it. I wouldn't use it. With a 55% chance of recovery, you're going to affect someone for maybe a round or two, with a good chance of just slowing them for the period between your action and theirs.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by virgil »

Oh, it's (sleep) still great for use against boss monsters or even leader monsters. Basically, the monsters that are designed to have more than one player attacking it will make this either a delay tactic or a damage multiplier.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Voss »

Well... maybe. It depends what slow actually does in 4e. If it inflicts AC or defense penalties, it might. But take the pit fiend, it gets +2 to saves, so it goes away on an 8+ on his turn. Thats a potentially huge waste of a daily power and an action.

Its potentially decent for tripping up about half of a group, but it just doesn't fit my playstyle preferences. If I have to have a big-awesome-nuke spell (even if its a weaker level one version), that I can only use once per day, I want to be able to rely on it, not simply hope they don't win a coin toss thats weighted in their favor.
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Koumei »

Last I heard it was 11+. I know that's not a huge difference, but at least it's an even coin toss. Have they confirmed that it's actually 10+?
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Voss »

Yes. Check the pdf document in the original post. definitely 10+
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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by JonSetanta »

One could easily say "I'm a psychic Psion" and play a Wizard.
Same with any other name, be it Shaman, Channeler, Sorcerer, Mystic, Ascetic, or SuperMagicAnalcunt.
My worries with the direction spellcasting has leaned in 4e is that creating new spells will be very difficult to balance, given that the criteria for determining balance will be not only extremely tight but that most spell roles are narrowed to the point near boring.

Call me stupid, but I still want Dragonball powers in my D&D.
Big flashy orbs of energy thrown at the foes to explode and trash the landscape.
I expect nothing less for mid-to-late level Wizard play.

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Re: 4e Quick Rules Primer

Post by Voss »

Big balls of energy seem the staple of the first level wizard-
magic missile, burning (not hands) area attack, force orb, acid arrow.
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