TNE: Skills?

[Draco_Argentum]

Yeah, nice answer to a completely different problem. We were just in chase mode, and it ended because the runner is no longer "allowed" to be in chase mode. Going back into chase mode is definitionally off the table unless we're scrapping the "chase point" idea you like so much, or losing all your chase points actually incapacitates you. Care to try again?

Nope, think about it. If anyone can call chase mode whenever they want then using combat move to run won't work. The guys you're running from can just call chase and you auto lose because you have to chase points left.

Thats why I said this might be a problem with horse archers. They should get a combat mobility advantage, letting slower people call chase to catch up would really kill that. Not sure what to do here yet.

Using HP as CP kinda kills any scene where you run someone down then have a fight. It also means that you are highly likely to catch the mooks that run away. I'd rather stopping the scout before he can warn the enemy about you be a potential challenge.

[Username17]

What if you were essentially always in Chase Mode, and you could attempt to put distance between yourself or close a gap with various actions?

If you dropped the idea of things moving in 1 meter increments on the board entirely and simply gave people a relative position which could be dynamically altered during a turn, then perhaps it wouldn't be as big a deal.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

What if you were essentially always in Chase Mode, and you could attempt to put distance between yourself or close a gap with various actions?

If you dropped the idea of things moving in 1 meter increments on the board entirely and simply gave people a relative position which could be dynamically altered during a turn, then perhaps it wouldn't be as big a deal.

-Username17

What would that look like? Does this involve kicking the battlemat habit altogether?

[Bigode]

What I have been thinking, OTOH, is to chuck chase as a separate mode. How? By making movement use checks (on which you might be able to take 10, possibly). Then you have a randomization of movement speed and a way to penalize speed incrementally. That said, I still like the concept of "chase gambits", but they'd be things like "hide", "distract mount" and "squeeze" that can be used simply as a part of combat (and yeah, you can try to distract the mount of the guy trying to lance you right now). Thoughts?

[PhoneLobster]

By making movement use checks (on which you might be able to take 10, possibly). Then you have a randomization of movement speed and a way to penalize speed incrementally.

I don't think that one is a great idea.

It IS a natural upshot of using stupidly non abstracted movement distances and maps in general.


It may even be a potentially viable solution to portions of the immediate problem involving chasing stuff around.

But it adds complexity and lack of abstraction which are problems in and of themselves and will cause many additional problems to arise from them.

Essentially its bad design in principle and can only lead to problematic results in the long term.

If we were working from a more sensibly abstracted mapping/movement system to start with the whole chase/combat transition would be a heck of a lot easier to deal with one way or another.

And just as the bad design principles behind small squares and exact positioning/distances costs us a headache now adding FURTHER detail to the distances involved will cost us headaches later.

[virgil]

Question, what RPGs out there actually provide an enjoyable mechanic for a chase scene?

The idea of abstracting movement/distance reminds me of this one thread I found on the EN-World forums close to a year ago. It was a housrule arrangement, and I remember being impressed with it as a concept at the time. I'll be damned if I can find it though.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Spirit of the Century is pretty good. I've heard good things about Unknown Armies and Savage Worlds, too.

[CatharzGodfoot]

If you're using movement-altering gambits, your base rate can remain static with chases still being dynamic. That probably clears up most of the problem of battle maps.

[Bigode]

Good idea, Catharz. Lobster: you might just wanna know I don't use miniatures, grids or whatever at all - I just trust my head to keep the important stuff.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

I vote for miniatures/battlemat use. Tactical wargaming is (and should be) a big part of any game that has the tactical options that TNE seems to be adopting.

[CatharzGodfoot]

In relation to this, what do we want the 'range of engagement' to be?

It's long been known that range increments in D&D are fairly unrealistic. It's also usually a given that the range of engagement increases over time.

If (for the sake of argument) we abstract attack ranges into melee, short (thrown), medium (bows), and long (artillery), how should these ranges compare to movement rates? Should there be fixed accuracy limits on longer-ranged powers?

[virgil]

aha! I found the thread that mentions it. It's one of the attachments given by RangerWickett over on EN World

EDIT: Bah! Looks like I jumped the gun there. The file's similar to what I was thinking, but it's not as compatible with d20 as I remember it being; as the thread I was thinking of was an actual post and not a document/attachment; and it was alot more oriented towards the D&D system, as opposed to that weird variant...

[PhoneLobster]

I vote for miniatures/battlemat use. Tactical wargaming is (and should be) a big part of any game that has the tactical options that TNE seems to be adopting.

See this?

If your system uses a positional mechanic that does not at least vaguely resemble that, or magically provide the many benefits it does, then I will likely call your positional system stupid.

And I will mercilessly make fun of your stupid ass "Rook Spell".

Abstract positioning beats exact positioning hands down. I would be very disappointed if Frank decides to pretend he can make his current RPG adhere to a chess board without harming its playability.

I've been working with essentially the described system since before I started that thread and as with all sensible abstraction its like some kind of miracle snake oil in its limitless benefits to the health of the game.

It of course works the best as part of an overall policy of sensible abstraction but would bring benefits to any system even as a stand alone option.

[CatharzGodfoot]

aha! I found the thread that mentions it. It's one of the attachments given by RangerWickett over on EN World

EDIT: Bah! Looks like I jumped the gun there. The file's similar to what I was thinking, but it's not as compatible with d20 as I remember it being; as the thread I was thinking of was an actual post and not a document/attachment; and it was alot more oriented towards the D&D system, as opposed to that weird variant...

Big Fat Squares was better.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

PhoneLobster,

I only read your first post so I haven't read all your counterarguments yet. I think this is a big enough topic that if you want to address it in a TNE context, you should make a forked thread.

That said, so far your system seems to ignore or gloss over many tactical options that are available in Dnd 3.x. (and therefore many possible TNE tactical options)

It would be helpful if you summarized what you feel the failings are of traditional tactical positioning and how your system addresses those points.

[PhoneLobster]

I recommend you go over the rest of the thread. Much of it is a raging battle between me and some guy who shares your (unfounded) belief that as a concept abstraction reduces tactical choice.

I'll do a new pro abstract positioning thread just for you soon but don't have time right now.

In the mean time I recommend catch up on the old thread.

[CatharzGodfoot]

How about skills as including pretty much everything which can be learned with a reasonable amount of effort and doesn't scale to level?

So you can have a 1st level character with smithy, cooking, and ride, and when she goes up in level she grabs 'lord of broken rock manor' and retrains cooking to survival.

It is a problem balance-wise, but it also allows for characters to benefit by becoming 'jacks of all trades' or not becoming jacks of all trades.

And yes, she can have the manor house before she has the skill, but she can't start making checks with it until she's invested.

[Username17]

I would prefer under the circumstances if we just tossed level dependency on skill points altogether. It gives people an avenue for character growth that is interesting without pushing the numerics. Basically the Buffy model. The characters learn things and reference previous shows' accomplishments without getting stronger or faster.

Yo should have the opportunity to learn the serpent tongue in order to complete a mission rather than as a reward for completing the mission.

-Username17

[Orion]

Frank-- There's actually a *really* simple way to deal with that problem--

Award XP/SkillPoints/other advancement at the *beginning* of every adventure, based on the difficulty of the adventure.

That way people get a power-up before taking on big bosses, not after; and they can use the resources gained to pick up whatever spells/skills/techniques they need for the upcoming adventure. You can even fold gear into character abilities much more comfortably this way.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Frank-- There's actually a *really* simple way to deal with that problem--

Award XP/SkillPoints/other advancement at the *beginning* of every adventure, based on the difficulty of the adventure.

That way people get a power-up before taking on big bosses, not after; and they can use the resources gained to pick up whatever spells/skills/techniques they need for the upcoming adventure. You can even fold gear into character abilities much more comfortably this way.

So long as those resources are allocated during the adventure as opposed to before it. Frank's example illustrates the problem very well: You don't know you want it until you're in the middle of the adventure, and it's nothing but flavor text afterwards.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Personally, I think the language barrier is a useless artifact. I'm struggling to remember any fantasy adventure source material where the language barrier is a serious problem and coming up empty. There is always someone in the group who gets to look cool by knowing the obscure tongue. So that shit should be free. Players can roll off to see who gets to look smooth, or whoever has the most plausible background can do it, I don't care. Especially since once the adventure is over, you never care about speaking Manigator or Really Far Boring Haradrim ever again, so keeping track of it is a waste of your time.

On the more general matter of mid-adventure advancement, I prefer the challenge of solving a problem with the resources I have, not the Heisenberg resources I may or may not have until they're observed. That way lies acetylene torch arrows and bat-shark repellent. On the other hand, there are a lot of stories where someone has to learn a skill quickly or reveals a previously unseen ability, so I'm not wholly against the idea; and it should be integrated into the usual advancement system instead of being a special case.

At the same time, you don't want people to have to spend permanent character resources on a skill that they might not want just because this one adventure requires a dip or whatever. Being shaped by your adventures is cool. Herakles is armored in the skin of the beast he killed in his first labor, and has arrows dipped in the poison of the beast he killed in his second labor, and that's awesome; but I don't think he went to his pyre with ranks in Profession: Shit-shoveller or Craft: Riverbed from that one time he cleaned out the stables.

[virgil]

You never know. Hercules could actually be the great shoveler of animal droppings the world has ever seen, thanks to that task he was given.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Especially since once the adventure is over, you never care about speaking Manigator or Really Far Boring Haradrim ever again, so keeping track of it is a waste of your time.

That's completely untrue. Your character's experiences are what make him interesting, and having things like that be important in later adventures is really gratifying.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Your character's experiences are what make him interesting, and having things like that be important in later adventures is really gratifying.

If this is specifically on the matter of language, I maintain that language as a barrier can be relegated to flavor text with no loss to anyone. If it turns out it was your character's turn to look cool when you needed someone to speak Manigator back in session 2, and the DM needs a reason why nobody's solved a certain puzzle before the PCs turned up in session 8, it can be because part of the puzzle is written in Manigator and you can look cool all over again.

If it's about being shaped by your adventures, I think I spoke in favor of that already, but I'll clarify: it's about choice. Maybe I don't want to wear a lionskin. Maybe I don't want poisoned arrows. Maybe I don't want ranks in Craft: Riverbed. Maybe I want to embed the Lion's claws and teeth into my club so it's deadlier, eat the Hydra's flesh until I can regenerate, and get skill ranks in Bargain based on negotiating being paid for cleaning those stables. Maybe I want to eat the lion's heart and become immune to fear, keep the Hydra's one immortal head in my belt pouch as an oracle, and get skill ranks in whatever you use to withstand the stench of the stables.

Sometimes in a story, before you can defeat the boss you have to learn the Seven Secret Kicks. In a role-playing game, you may still have to learn something before you can beat the boss or whatever, but if your character uses a sword (or is a naga) and you want it to be the Seven Secret Cuts instead, that should be fine. If your character is an ice mage and you want it to be the Seven Secret Snowflakes, that should be okay too.

It is just barely okay to be forced to have your character learn how to pickpocket to get past a plot point. It would be better if there were a variety of possible solutions to that problem. It is completely not okay to be forced to have 'pickpocket' on your character's sheet, for the rest of his career, in the place of a skill that better fit your concept for that character.

[Username17]

It is just barely okay to be forced to have your character [Get a Pair of Magic Boots] to get past a plot point. It would be better if there were a variety of possible solutions to that problem. It is completely not okay to be forced to have [Magic Boots] on your character's sheet, for the rest of his career, in the place of a [Magic Item] that better fit your concept for that character.

Fixed.

I think that I'm going to just have to flat disagree with this assessment. While the occasional "Soul Edge" style reward should certainly happen; there should be other rewards that don't simply meld into and enhance your original character concept. It's a cooperative storytelling game. The fact that your character ends up looking like Old Jack from episode XXXII of Samurai Jack is kind of the entire point.

If you do an adventure where everyone has to ice skate, or whatever, your character can fucking ice skate now. The only character who actually used the retraining rules is Conan, and that just feels like bad writing - because it's bad writing!

-Username17