Building things from scratch: Design Principles.

[Draco_Argentum]

Are you going to be useing the Shadowrun inspired casting system in ths project?

[Username17]

Are you going to be useing the Shadowrun inspired casting system in ths project?

Yes. The elemental Associations actually come with a very easy way to attach Drain from a thematic standpoint. That is, powerful abilities can "backlash" and inflict status effects right back at you. So shooting a big firestorm off would leave you shaken, for example.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

How exactly are status conditions going to work. You said that you didn't want a binary (on/off) system, but rather some kind of accumulation. Is that going to work like damage where you have 10 boxes of fatigue, 10 boxes of fear and so on, or is there some other system?

[User3]

How exactly are status conditions going to work. You said that you didn't want a binary (on/off) system, but rather some kind of accumulation. Is that going to work like damage where you have 10 boxes of fatigue, 10 boxes of fear and so on, or is there some other system?

Pretty much. The idea is that a box of damage gives you a -1 penalty on anything that type of damage applies to. And then when you go to ten boxes or more you can't act at all until you make a check (with a DC that scales up as you take more damage). And then when you go to 20+ boxes, you just can't act. And then when you go to 30+ boxes, your character no longer comes back under your control at all.

So, for example, if you got slapped with a Petrification effect for three boxes, that would act as a -3 penalty to your initiative scores and physical tests - and iit would add to other petrification boxes you had to add up to you turning into a rock.

And if you draw upon more Earth Magic than you can control, you'll take boxes of petrification out of the deal as drain.

-Username17

[MrWaeseL]

Doesn't that make a petrification attack the same as a normal attack, except that different defenses work against it?

Also, do creatures that strike with natural weapons always inflict life damage? Or is there a "system" like currently with the DR rules

[Username17]

Doesn't that make a petrification attack the same as a normal attack, except that different defenses work against it?

Essentially. Of course, it also has a slightly different effect in that it's a different check to try to move again when it knocks you down.

Mostly, the difference is that it affects a different box which means it doesn't add together to eventually kill you. So a big gash on your arm and being all creaky don't add up to passing out.

Also, do creatures that strike with natural weapons always inflict life damage?

Unless it's an Obsidian Golem or something, yeah.

-Username17

[MrWaeseL]

1094549445[/unixtime]]Unless it's an Obsidian Golem or something, yeah.

-Username17

Doesn't that make the life type of damage "worth more" than other types of damage, and getting a high resistance against it allow you to kill most monsters with impunity?

[Username17]

Doesn't that make the life type of damage "worth more" than other types of damage, and getting a high resistance against it allow you to kill most monsters with impunity?

Only if you spend more time hunting space moose than fighting people, golems, and demons. I'm not forseeing much combat against beasts that don't have magic powers. Creatures with magic powers do damage of whatever type their magic powers do, and demons are already made out of whatever element.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

Frank, why would you care overly whether life damage or life damage resistance worth more than other types? As long as the system isn't capable of being gamed, that can actually be a good thing.

Bringing my current obsession - City of Heroes - into play, they have different damage types. A lot of them. But the vast majority of villains do two types, smashing and lethal, making resistence to those types of damage "more valuable." Overall, however, the system is well-balanced because if you invest a lot in smashing and letha resistence, when you do find something that does, say, psychic or negative nrg, you get rocked. While you can avoid that to a certain extent, eventually you have to do it.

For example, if in your system a majority of the stuff does life damage, and you invest a lot in life damage resistence, and now your character has to go through the Temple of Elemental Evil . . . you're not going to be happy. It's a balance system that depends on having a DM who doesn't ignore the PC's and the world, but I figure any system worth a damn depends on that.

Which brings up another point. How are you going to track the various damages and stuff that can be affected by them? Again, my biggest worry about the system is just tracking it, CoH has a similar (and overall less effective) system that works OK, but is tracked by computer.

[Username17]

How are you going to track the various damages and stuff that can be affected by them?

If you are a "creature" in the D&D sense, you can be affected by all the damage types. If you are an "object" in the D&D sense, you can only be affected by physical damage.

Noone is "immune to fear", although some people are so crazily resistant that they might as well be, perhaps.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

OK, but does that mean you fill out damage boxes for each of the 7 damage types?

[Username17]

1094589700[/unixtime]]OK, but does that mean you fill out damage boxes for each of the 7 damage types?

Yes. But while this can theoretically come up, I don't see it happening more often than, for example, a D&D character being "shaken", "sickened", "weakened", "symbol of pained", "slowed", "confused", and "dazzled" (or whatever).

Yes, you can potentially have a bunch of status effects going all at once, but there is a hard limit in place at the beginning to tell you how they can accumulate.

-Username17

[User3]

I just noticed this, and it looks very well thought out.
I like the HP/damage system and I like the idea of a completely skill-based system.

A few things seemed odd to me.
1) Ability scores: Why do you need to make them an arbitrary number with some other number attached to it? Why not make an ability score, say, +1 or -1, where +1 or -1 is the bonus applied to related checks?
Ability damage will simply reduce the bonus (or increase the penalty), eventually to the point that a character can't do anything related to that score.

2) Damage types: I don't have a problem with the flavor you used, but if (as you say) everything is magical, why have both mental and physical resistance? If an obsidian weapon does fire damage, and a fireball does fire damage, why arbitrarily split them into two categories?
If you really want purely 'magical' types of damage, just make a damage type (arcane?) which is used primarily for magical attacks.

Also, the list seems needlessly large. Water an life could be combined. Vampires are supposed to be vulnerable to silver, and we're almost completely made of water. Water is usually associated with life anyway. It messes with the 4 elements + life and death ideology, but oh well. I'm not sure what "Void" damage is intended to represent. It certainly fits in nicely with a Rokugan mythology, but does it really serve a purpose here?
Anyway, I see that the names (and even numbers) of the damage types is actually fairly irrelevant to the system as a whole.

3) The specific skills and the abilities tied to them seems to be the balancing point of the game. It relies on skills being roughly equal in power, and this will probably take a freaking *lot* of work.

I also don't think that basing magical abilities in 'mundane' skills is the best way to go about doing things.
If you want a skills that lets characters shoot lightning bolts from their crotches, I don't really see a reason to base it in the same skill that regulates their ability to swim, or sing, or debate effectively.
Give them a 'Weather magic' skill, which lets them make the sky cloudy, increase winds, or shoot sparks. And make another 'Destructive sorcery' skill, that lets them shoot lightning and fire.
Some things lend themselves easily to more magical uses: Disguise -> polymorph-ish, Escape artist -> Freedom of movement, Diplomacy -> Charm. And that is perfectly fine too. Maybe Weather magic is part of some 'profession: Meteorologist' skill.

4) Races: Why do you even need races? Dragons look like dragons, but functionally they are just like humans with the Fly skill, the Fire skill, and high physical attributes.
The only odd case is size, and I'm not sure how to factor that in to the system as a whole.

Anyway, really cool idea. Reminds me a lot of Alternity.

[Username17]

Why not make an ability score, say, +1 or -1, where +1 or -1 is the bonus applied to related checks?

Well, the idea here is that actually you wouldn't have negative stats (except maybe for Strength on very small creatures). Within the human realm, everyone's stats are just going to be non-negative numbers, where a Quickness of 7 means that any time you add Quickness to anything you add +7. Being "helpless" you simply don't get to add your Quickness to things, so there's no reason for there to be weird rules about how you don't add your bonuses but your penalties still apply and all that crap.

Ability damage will simply reduce the bonus (or increase the penalty), eventually to the point that a character can't do anything related to that score.

Sort of. Nothing attacks abilities directly, they simply accumulate damage and subtract from the same things that abilty scores add to. This way, you don't have the chipmunk paralysis problem of D&D and Hero System (and many many others).

I don't have a problem with the flavor you used, but if (as you say) everything is magical, why have both mental and physical resistance? If an obsidian weapon does fire damage, and a fireball does fire damage, why arbitrarily split them into two categories?

The fireball and the obsidian sword are not split into separate categories. Mental resistance is used for things like Charm and Fear (which are also attached to elements). So a terror effect is a "mental fire" - and is hitting your fire resistance (because it's fire), and your mental defenses (because it's in your mind).

Rocks and twigs are immune to the mental fire and don't have mental stats.

Also, the list seems needlessly large. Water an life could be combined. Vampires are supposed to be vulnerable to silver, and we're almost completely made of water. Water is usually associated with life anyway. It messes with the 4 elements + life and death ideology, but oh well. I'm not sure what "Void" damage is intended to represent. It certainly fits in nicely with a Rokugan mythology, but does it really serve a purpose here?

I'm not "messing" with the 4 elements + life + death, because I never agreed to those in the first place. That's the color wheel from Age of Wonders, but it's not the "real" magic system in any sense. Heck, many cultures didn't accept "Air" as an element.

Void here is for stuff that is explicitly "non-ancient" - such as Industry and Iron. Void stuff kicks the crap out of fairies and anything else that is naturally aligned. This is distinct from "death", which while unpleasant is perfectly natural and has no special advantages over dryads. I could go on at length about why Iron has historically been associated with kicking the living stuffings out of the wee folk, but suffice to say that it has a heck of a lot more grounding in ancient literature than the idea that vampires turn to dust when stabbed through the heart with a piece of wood.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1094584799[/unixtime]]
Noone is "immune to fear", although some people are so crazily resistant that they might as well be, perhaps.

How would you handle resistances to status conditions? Is each status condition simply linked to an element, so a guy highly resistant to fear would have high fire resistance, or is status resistance another stat entirely?

[Username17]

How would you handle resistances to status conditions? Is each status condition simply linked to an element, so a guy highly resistant to fear would have high fire resistance, or is status resistance another stat entirely?

Status resistance is elemental resistance. The guy who for all practical purposes can't be petrified is also essentially immune to thrown rocks and long falls.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

How would you handle damage from mixed alloys and other unrelated metals?

Like a copper or bronze sword, or someone who makes a sword out of gold. What about a glass bottle?

Also how would you handle a combined attack, like a burning torch, which would be both a life and fire attack?

[Username17]

Actually mixed weapons, such as an iron flaming sword would have the super secret power of applying themselves against whichever of two elemental resistances were lower.

Torches are a bad example of this, since they don't actually burn people if you hit people with them, and don't actually bludgeon people if you burn with them. In order to set someone on fire with a torch requires you to hold it a distance away from them for a considerable period - which is nowhere near fast enough to hurt someone with it as a club. But that's neither here nor there.

Bronze and Copper weapons just do air damage, glass does fire damage, but if you find some metal or stone that isn't typed it does earth damage - so your gold brick does earth damage.

-Username17

[User3]

When you make an attack, you roll to hit. If you hit, your opponent rolls to reduce damage.

I'm a bit confused abot how this works.

So, you have a skill-based attack system, a skill based AC system (?), and a standard D&D (?) damage system?

For example, My character has 5 ranks in fencing, and a strength of 2. My opponents has 4 ranks in dodge, 5 ranks in armor use, a quickness of one and a strength of 3.

I attack, rolling a 12, for a total of 19. My opponent rolls a 9 for AC, for a total of 14. I hit!
Now I roll damage. I'm using a longsword, so I deal 1d8+5. My opponent rolls a 15 for armor use, for a total of 23. He reduces the damage to (?).

Or do you have a set AC, damage and attack as the same roll, and then damage reduced by a skill check? In that case, skill bonuses would eventually surpass AC so much that it no longer mattered.

Or do you have no AC, damage as the only roll the attacker makes, and the defender rolls to reduce damage (often to zero)? This seems unlikely as you wrote that "you roll to hit."

I'm probably just not familiar with whatever setting (Shadowrun? - I hate the idea of cyberpunk elves) you adapted this from.

[Username17]

So, you have a skill-based attack system, a skill based AC system (?), and a standard D&D (?) damage system?

No, it's skill based damage resistance. The damage you do is just a number, modified randomly only by the result of your attack roll.

For example, My character has 5 ranks in fencing, and a strength of 2. My opponents has 4 ranks in dodge, 5 ranks in armor use, a quickness of one and a strength of 3.

I attack, rolling a 12, for a total of 19. My opponent rolls a 9 for AC, for a total of 14. I hit!

Actually... your opponent does not roll their AC. Their AC is just a number, but assuming they had an AC of 14, that would be a hit, yes. In addition, since you beat their AC by 4-5, you do +2 damage on that hit (had your roll been a you would have scored +3 damage, had it been only a 17 you would have gained +1 damage).

Now I roll damage. I'm using a longsword, so I deal 1d8+5. My opponent rolls a 15 for armor use, for a total of 23. He reduces the damage to (?).

You've already rolled damage. Now you simply take your sword damage, plus your strength, plus that additional 3 points you got for scoring a good hit, and you get a number. Your opponent then rolls their strength plus elemental resistances and tries to match that number.

In the circumstance where your combined damage was 23 and your opponent soaked at a 15, your opponent would suffer 4 points of damage. If they had rolled a 14, they'd take 5, and if they'd rolled a 17 they'd only take 3. Characters go down as soon as they hit 10 points of damage, so that's kind of a lot actually.

I'm probably just not familiar with whatever setting (Shadowrun? - I hate the idea of cyberpunk elves) you adapted this from.

It was stolen by White Wolf for the Vampire stuff as well, if you've ever attempted to play that. In the original, there's an attack roll, and a dodge roll, and a soak roll. I've ditched the Dodge roll, and made your dodge value into the DC for the original attack roll.

So there's just two d20 rolls any time one character attacks another. There's no polygonal dice or damage multipliers or anything, because it's built in to the two d20 rolls. One is an attack/damage roll, the other is a lot like a fortitude save. Similar to Mutants and Masterminds, but less binary.

-Username17

[User3]

You should take a look at the new WW system. Its smoother than the old one and looks much like your system.

[RandomCasualty]

1094764679[/unixtime]]You should take a look at the new WW system. Its smoother than the old one and looks much like your system.

What new WW system?

[Username17]

Vampire got redone after they threw up their hands and blew up the world. They announced a new World of Darkness with less stupid crap in it.

The damage system in that is that you roll a number of attack dice based on your skills and strength (reduced by your opponent's dodge and armor) - and every time you roll an 8 or 9 you inflict one box of damage, every time you roll a 10 you inflict a box of damage and roll another die with no cap. And people who are really tough either cause their opponents to roll less dice or have more available wound levels.

There are a number of things I don't like about it, starting with the fact that it is based on rolling bags full of d10s, and going through to the fact that the game jumps from total invulnerability to extreme lethality with nothing in between (if you cancel all of your opponent's dice, he can't hurt you, but if your opponent is rolling even a single die he is doing you an average of 1/3 of a box of damage per attack, which is really a lot when you have like five boxes to your name). I admit freely that it is an astounding improvement on the old system, but that's not actually saying all that much.

I still think that at its core, the LARP system is still superior, which is kind of sad.

-Username17

[User3]

1094757565[/unixtime]]
No, it's skill based damage resistance. The damage you do is just a number, modified randomly only by the result of your attack roll.

For example, My character has 5 ranks in fencing, and a strength of 2. My opponents has 4 ranks in dodge, 5 ranks in armor use, a quickness of one and a strength of 3.

I attack, rolling a 12, for a total of 19. My opponent rolls a 9 for AC, for a total of 14. I hit!

Actually... your opponent does not roll their AC. Their AC is just a number, but assuming they had an AC of 14, that would be a hit, yes. In addition, since you beat their AC by 4-5, you do +2 damage on that hit (had your roll been a you would have scored +3 damage, had it been only a 17 you would have gained +1 damage).

*Snip*

-Username17

Guest was me.
Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. I haven't played a White wolf game since '98, so please forgive me if I don't remember much

Anyway, now you leave me wondering how AC is calculated as a set value. I assume is is based in part off of Quickness, but I don't see how is can possibly scale with a skill-based system.

Also, you've shown the great value of Strength, Quickness, and Charisma. Inteligence seems left way behind. If skill points aren't level based, it can't add skill points (or can it?). Getting a plus to a few knowledge-type checks seems in no way worth it when you could be increasing/decreasing damage or acting more and faster.

[RandomCasualty]

1094770585[/unixtime]]Vampire got redone after they threw up their hands and blew up the world. They announced a new World of Darkness with less stupid crap in it.

The damage system in that is that you roll a number of attack dice based on your skills and strength (reduced by your opponent's dodge and armor) - and every time you roll an 8 or 9 you inflict one box of damage, every time you roll a 10 you inflict a box of damage and roll another die with no cap. And people who are really tough either cause their opponents to roll less dice or have more available wound levels.

So if the guy has more dodge + armor than you have skills you always inflict 0 damage because you've got no dice? That sounds worse than the original system...