Class Compression

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Are the classes worth playing now?

Yes
1
4%
No
8
33%
I don't know
4
17%
I'd play a full spellcaster anyway. Like a boss.
11
46%
 
Total votes: 24

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JonSetanta
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Class Compression

Post by JonSetanta »

Class Compression
Barbarian
LevelAbilities
1Fast Movement, Rage 1, Uncanny Dodge
2Rage 2, Trap Sense +1
3Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +2
4DR 1, Rage 3
5DR 2, Trap Sense +3
6Greater Rage, Rage 4, Trap Sense +4
7DR 3, Indomitable Will
8DR 4, Rage 5, Trap Sense +5
9Tireless Rage, Trap Sense +6
10Mighty Rage, Rage 6, DR 5

Barbarian v2
LevelAbilities
1Pure Muscle, Fast Movement, Rage
2Trap Sense, Uncanny Dodge
3Damage Reduction, Scent
4Improved Uncanny Dodge
5Blindsense 30
6Greater Rage
7Indomitable Will
8Blindsight 60
9Tireless Rage
10Mighty Rage


Pure Muscle (Ex): The character adds Barbarian levels as a racial bonus to Strength, and every even Barbarian level as a racial bonus to Constitution.
Ability score adjustments from this ability do not stack with racial and enhancement bonuses.

Fast Movement (Ex): Add a +10 bonus to movement for every odd Barbarian class level.

Rage (Ex): The bonus are as normal, but Rage is a stance that can be activated or deactivated once each round, and does not cause Fatigue. In any hour in which a character activates Rage, they are considered to have not rested for that hour.

Trap Sense (Ex): Grants +1 bonus to all saves against traps for each Barbarian level.

Damage Reduction (Ex): The character gains DR/- equal to their Barbarian class levels.





Bard
LevelAbilities
1Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Fascinate, Inspire Courage +1
2Inspire Competence
3Countersong
4Inspire Courage +2
5Suggestion
6Inspire Courage +3
7Song of Freedom
8Inspire Courage +4
9Inspire Heroics
10Inspire Courage +5
11Mass Suggestion

LevelMaximum Spell Level
11
2
32
4
53
6
74
8
95
10
116

Fighter
LevelAbilities
1Bonus Fighter Feat
2Bonus Fighter Feat
3Bonus Fighter Feat
4Bonus Fighter Feat
5Bonus Fighter Feat
6Bonus Fighter Feat
7Bonus Fighter Feat
8Bonus Fighter Feat
9Bonus Fighter Feat
10Bonus Fighter Feat

Fighter v2
• 4 + INT skill points
LevelAbilities
1Pure Muscle, 2 Bonus Fighter Feats
22 Bonus Fighter Feats
32 Bonus Fighter Feats
42 Bonus Fighter Feats
52 Bonus Fighter Feats
62 Bonus Fighter Feats
72 Bonus Fighter Feats
82 Bonus Fighter Feats
92 Bonus Fighter Feats
102 Bonus Fighter Feats

Pure Muscle (Ex): The character adds Fighter levels as a racial bonus to Strength, and every even Fighter level as a racial bonus to Constitution.
Ability score adjustments from this ability do not stack with racial and enhancement bonuses.

Monk
LevelAbilities
1Bonus Fighter Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, AC Bonus
2Bonus Fighter Feat, Evasion, Still Mind, Ki Strike, Slow Fall 20
3Bonus Fighter Feat, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 30
4Wholeness of Body, Slow Fall 40
5Improved Evasion, Ki Strike (Law), Slow Fall 50
6Diamond Body, Greater Flurry, Abundant Step, Slow Fall 60
7Diamond Soul, Slow Fall 70
8Quivering Palm, Ki Strike (Adamantine), Slow Fall 80
9Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon, Slow Fall 90
10Empty Body, Perfect Self, Slow Fall any distance

Monk v2
LevelAbilities
1Pure Muscle, Bonus Fighter Feat, Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, AC Bonus, Fast Movement, Ninja Training (optional)
2Bonus Fighter Feat, Evasion, Still Mind, Ki Strike, Slow Fall
3Bonus Fighter Feat, Purity of Body, Water Walk (constant)
4Bonus Fighter Feat, Wholeness of Body
5Bonus Fighter Feat, Improved Evasion, Ki Strike (Law), Air Walk (constant)
6Bonus Fighter Feat, Diamond Body, Greater Flurry
7Bonus Fighter Feat, Diamond Soul, Abundant Step
8Bonus Fighter Feat, Quivering Palm, Ki Strike (Adamantine)
9Bonus Fighter Feat, Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon
10Bonus Fighter Feat, Empty Body, Perfect Self

AC Bonus (Ex): The character adds both Wisdom bonus and every even Monk class level to AC.

Pure Muscle (Ex): The character adds Monk levels as a racial bonus to Strength, and every even Monk level as a racial bonus to Constitution.
Ability score adjustments from this ability do not stack with racial and enhancement bonuses.

Fast Movement (Ex): Add a +10 bonus to movement for every odd Monk class level.

Ninja Training: If the player chooses, they may sacrifice each Bonus Fighter Feat gained from the Monk class to instead gain a Sneak Attack +1d6 damage, and a damage progression as if each Monk class level were Rogue class levels.

Slow Fall (Su): The character is affected by Feather Fall whenever they desire.

Abundant Step (Su): The character may use Dimension Door as a Move action. If the character has the ability Empty Body as well, they may use Teleport instead.

Empty Body (Ex): The character may become ethereal for 1 round as an Immediate action once every minute.
LevelUnarmed Strike Damage
11d8
21d8
31d8
41d10
51d10
62d6
72d6
82d8
92d8
102d10


Paladin
LevelAbilities
1Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1, Turn Undead, Lay On Hands
2Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Divine Grace
3Smite Evil 2, Special Mount, Remove Disease 1
4Remove Disease 2
5Smite Evil 3
6Remove Disease 3
7Smite Evil 4
8Remove Disease 4
9Remove Disease 5
10Smite Evil 5

Paladin v2
LevelAbilities
1Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Turn Undead, Lay On Hands
2Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Divine Grace
3Special Mount, Remove Disease
4Bonus Fighter Feat, Paladin Spells
5Magic Circle Against Evil (constant)
6Bonus Fighter Feat
7Holy Smite effect with weapon hit
8Bonus Fighter Feat
9Dispel Evil at-will
10Celestial template (self), Bonus Fighter Feat

Smite Evil (Su): As normal, but occurs automatically against any being the Paladin has identified as evil.

Remove Disease (Su): The character may cure any disease by touch at-will.

Special Mount (Su): The mount has the Celestial template, and may be any monster with HD or CR no greater than the Paladin class levels.

Paladin Spells: Paladin levels grant spellcasting as if a Cleric but 3 levels lower. The character adds Paladin spells to spells known.


Ranger v2
LevelAbilities
1Favored Enemy 1, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style
2Endurance, Evasion, Animal Companion
3Favored Enemy 2, Improved Combat Style
4Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Ranger Spells
5Favored Enemy 3, Improved Evasion
6Combat Style Mastery
7Camouflage
8Favored Enemy 4
9Hide in Plain Sight
10Commune With Nature 1/hour, Favored Enemy 5

Combat Style (Ex): As normal, but each time this ability is gained, both double weapon style and archery style are gained.

Favored Enemy (Ex): Each time the ability occurs, choose an additional new type to specialize against. As normal, but the bonus is equal to Ranger class levels.

Ranger Spells: Ranger levels grant spellcasting as if a Druid but 3 levels lower. The character adds Ranger spells to spells known.

Rogue
LevelAbilities
1Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Evasion
2Trap Sense +1, Uncanny Dodge
3Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +2
4Sneak Attack +3d6, Improved Uncanny Dodge
5Trap Sense +3, Special Ability
6Sneak Attack +4d6, Trap Sense +4
7Sneak Attack +5d6
8Special Ability, Trap Sense +5
9Sneak Attack +6d6, Trap Sense +6
10Sneak Attack +7d6
11Special Ability
12Sneak Attack +8d6
13Sneak Attack +9d6
14Special Ability
15Sneak Attack +10d6

Rogue v2
LevelAbilities
1Sneak Attack, Trapfinding
2Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense
3Bonus Fighter Feat
4Improved Uncanny Dodge
5Bonus Fighter Feat, Improved Evasion
6Special Ability
7Bonus Fighter Feat
8Special Ability
9Bonus Fighter Feat
10Special Ability
11Bonus Fighter Feat
12Special Ability
13Bonus Fighter Feat
14Special Ability
15Bonus Fighter Feat

Sneak Attack (Ex): Functions conditionally as normal, but deals +1d6 Precision damage, and + 2 more Precision damage per Rogue level.

Trap Sense (Ex): Grants +1 bonus to all saves against traps for each Rogue level.



Prestige Class Compression


Assassin
LevelAbilities
1Sneak Attack, Death Attack, Poison Use
2Poison Resistance, +1 Spellcaster Level
3Improved Uncanny Dodge, +1 Spellcaster Level, Assassin Spells
4Hide In Plain Sight, +1 Spellcaster Level
5+1 Spellcaster Level
6+1 Spellcaster Level
7+1 Spellcaster Level
8+1 Spellcaster Level
9+1 Spellcaster Level
10+1 Spellcaster Level

Sneak Attack (Ex): Assassin levels count as Rogue levels for adding to Sneak Attack damage.

Poison Resistance (Ex): Add Assassin class levels as a bonus to saves against Poison.

Assassin Spell List: Assassin spells are added to the list of spells a character may cast and/or prepare, if the character has a previous spellcasting class. Otherwise use the spell progression of a Wizard for each spellcaster level the Assassin class grants.



Arcane Archer
LevelAbilities
1Enhance Arrow, Imbue Arrow
2Seeker Arrow, +1 Spellcaster Level
3Phase Arrow, +1 Spellcaster Level
4Hail of Arrows, +1 Spellcaster Level
5Arrow of Death, +1 Spellcaster Level

Enhance Arrow (Ex): Add Arcane Archer levels as a magical Enhancement bonus to ranged attacks the character fires.



Arcane Trickster
• 8 + INT skill points
LevelAbilities
1Ranged Legerdemain 1/hour, +1 Spellcaster Level
2Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/hour, +1 Spellcaster Level
3 Ranged Legerdemain 1/minute, +1 Spellcaster Level
4 Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/minute, +1 Spellcaster Level
5 Ranged Legerdemain at-will, +1 Spellcaster Level



Blackguard
LevelAbilities
1Aura of Evil, Detect Good, Poison Use, Command Undead,
2Dark Blessing, Smite Good, Sneak Attack
3Fiendish Servant, +1 Spellcaster Level, Blackguard Spells
4+1 Spellcaster Level
5+1 Spellcaster Level
6+1 Spellcaster Level
7+1 Spellcaster Level
8+1 Spellcaster Level
9+1 Spellcaster Level
10+1 Spellcaster Level

Sneak Attack (Ex): Blackguard levels count as Rogue levels for adding to Sneak Attack damage.

Blackguard Spell List: Blackguard spells are added to the list of spells a character may cast and/or prepare, if the character has a previous spellcasting class. Otherwise use the spell progression of a Cleric for each spellcaster level the Blackguard class grants.

Smite Good (Su): As normal, but occurs automatically against any being the Blackguard has identified as good.



Dragon Disciple
• 6 + INT skill points
LevelAbilities
1Natural Armor Bonus, Pure Muscle, 2 Claws 1d4 + STR, Bite 1d6 + 1/2 STR
2Breath Weapon, +1 Spellcaster Level
3Blindsense 30, +1 Spellcaster Level
4Wings, +1 Spellcaster Level
5Dragon Apotheosis

Pure Muscle (Ex): The character adds Dragon Disciple levels as a racial bonus to Strength, and every even Dragon Disciple level as a racial bonus to Constitution.
Ability score adjustments from this ability do not stack with racial and enhancement bonuses.

Breath Weapon (Su): As a standard action every 1d4 rounds the character may breath a single energy type in a 60 foot cone, with a Reflex DC of 10 + 1/2 level + CON for half. The damage is equal to 1d6 per Dragon Disciple class level.

Dragon Apotheosis (Ex): Gain the Half-Dragon template, but ability score adjustments don't stack with those of the Pure Muscle ability.



Duelist
LevelAbilities
1Canny Defense, Improved Reaction +2
2Enhanced Mobility, Grace, +1 Spellcaster Level
3Precise Strike +1d6, Acrobatic Charge, +1 Spellcaster Level
4Elaborate Parry, Improved Reaction +4, +1 Spellcaster Level
5Deflect Arrows, Precise Strike +2d6, +1 Spellcaster Level



Dwarven Defender
LevelAbilities
1Defensive Stance, Uncanny Dodge, AC Bonus
2Trap Sense, +1 Spellcaster Level
3Damage Reduction, Improved Uncanny Dodge, +1 Spellcaster Level
4Mobile Defense, +1 Spellcaster Level
5Earthglide, +1 Spellcaster Level

AC Bonus (Ex):The character adds both Constitution bonus and Dwarven Defender levels to AC.

Defensive Stance (Ex): The bonuses are as normal, but are activated for 1 round after the character spends a Swift action. The character is not winded by using it and may make 5-foot steps during the stance. Enemies entering reach of the character halt all movement and may only make 5-foot steps while they are within reach on later rounds.

Trap Sense (Ex): Grants +1 bonus to all saves against traps for each Dwarven Defender level.

Damage Reduction (Ex): The character gains DR/- equal to their Dwarven Defender class levels.

Mobile Defense (Ex): The character is not restricted to 5-foot steps only while using Defensive Stance.

Earthglide (Su): The character may move through unworked stone and dirt as the Xorn ability.



Eldritch Knight
• HP is d10
• 4 + INT skill points
LevelAbilities
1Bonus Fighter Feat, Imbue Weapon
2Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
3Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
4Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
5Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
6Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
7Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
8Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
9Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level
10Bonus Fighter Feat, +1 Spellcaster Level

Imbue Weapon (Su): Any weapon the character holds becomes a magical Spell Storing weapon as long as they have contact with it.



Horizon Walker
• HP is d8
• All saves are good
• 8 + INT skill points
LevelAbilities
12 Terrain Masteries
22 Terrain Masteries, +1 Spellcaster Level
3Terrain Mastery, Planar Terrain Mastery, +1 Spellcaster Level
42 Planar Terrain Masteries, +1 Spellcaster Level
52 Planar Terrain Masteries, +1 Spellcaster Level

Terrain Mastery (Ex): As normal, but the skill benefit is equal to Horizon Walker class levels doubled, and the attack/damage benefit is equal to Horizon Walker levels.

Planar Terrain Mastery (Su): For each Planar Terrain Mastery known, twice per day the character may Plane Shift to or from any plane they have studied or are familiar with that matches the description of their particular Mastery.

Shifting (Planar): The character may use Teleport as a Move action once each 1d4 rounds.

Weightless (Planar): The character is constantly affected by Air Walk. In directionless and/or weightless environments the character may move at full speed in any direction.



Loremaster
• HP is d6
• 8 + INT skill points
LevelAbilities
1Secret, Lore
2Secret, Bonus Language, +1 Spellcaster Level
3Secret, Greater Lore, +1 Spellcaster Level
4Secret, Bonus Language, +1 Spellcaster Level
5Secret, True Lore, +1 Spellcaster Level



Mystic Theurge
LevelAbilities
1Metamagic Feat
2+1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
3+1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
4+1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
5+1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
6Metamagic Feat
7+1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
8+1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
9+1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)
10+1 Spellcaster Level, +1 Spellcaster Level (to a different class)



Shadowdancer
LevelAbilities
1Hide In Plain Sight, Darkvision, Summon Shadow
2Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Silent Image at-will, +1 Spellcaster Level
3Defensive Roll, Summon Shadow 2, +1 Spellcaster Level
4Improved Uncanny Dodge, Slippery Mind, +1 Spellcaster Level
5Summon Shadow 3, Improved Evasion, +1 Spellcaster Level

Last edited by JonSetanta on Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:26 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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For Valor
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Post by For Valor »

Paladin is still weak as fuck. Effectively a dead level every time "Cure Disease" is a class feature.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Well, yeah. I made feats for that (such as Remove Disease at-will) but this time I'm working entirely with core rules; this concept just smashes together 20 levels into an earlier progression since they expire soon anyway.
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Post by ubernoob »

Rogue benefits from this WAY more than any of the other classes if you're playing core only. If you allow spell compendium, then ranger, paladin, and bard get massive boosts too. The monk and fighter pretty much just suck no matter what. The only thing the ranger change does if you're only allowing core spells is to let it multiclass with something like rogue and still get the TWF line while being strength based.
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Post by JonSetanta »

This was derived from core only. Any complications from splat abuse are an issue with splats.

The reason for Rogue going to 15 levels is because of its middle Tier placement.
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Post by ubernoob »

sigma999 wrote:This was derived from core only. Any complications from splat abuse are an issue with splats.

The reason for Rogue going to 15 levels is because of its middle Tier placement.
No... rogue is pretty much the best core class for dealing damage. Granted, some things are immune to sneak attack, but you can get around that with splats (gravestrike et all). Like, rogues dish out boatloads of damage. You increasing sneak attack progression only makes it better versus the things it is already good against and does nothing to make it contribute against anything with rogue immunity.

So, yeah. Rogue is totally fine as is.
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Post by For Valor »

Uber, I wouldn't say rogues are fine as-is. Competitive rogue builds seem to revolve around rings of blink, and use of gravestrike and golemstrike, and whatever the thing is to hit undead...

Rogues are very dependent on a few schticks and get boned when they don't have them (ring of blink, for instance, is 100% NECESSARY since flanking fucks you over. And flasks are a big one. And TWF.)

Rogues aren't fine as-is.... but you're right in that this is certainly not a fix for them.
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Post by Juton »

The monk will still be fucking useless. Make Flurry of Blows a standard action and give the class full BAB and it may be a bit more useful than a fighter.

As for the Paladin, it sounds dirty to say but use the smite from the Pathfinder Paladin. With that you choose one enemy, and all your attacks get the normal smite bonus and you get CHA to AC against that target, the effect lasts all day.

EDIT: I voted I don't know, it makes Bards a lot more attractive but doesn't really fix a fighter.
Last edited by Juton on Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PoliteNewb »

Short answer: no, I wouldn't play most of those as is.

Suggestions:

Barbarian: Trap sense is ass, replace it with something; otherwise, looks fine. Might even just move DR up to be 1/2 level (maybe doubled when raging).

Bard: looks fine. If they need a little more juice, maybe an aura or 2 (from the Marshal). If you want a more jack-of-all-trades flavor, maybe borrow a little from the Factotum (brains over brawn is a good ability, and fitting with a bard skill-monkey).

Fighters: still suck balls. Suggestions:

a.) floating feats/wild card feats...could help make the fighter more versatile.
b.) fighters can ignore all feat prereqs. Yes, all.
c.) every odd level, give them a spell at will or constant. Use the normal formula for the level of the spell, and offer stuff that's fighter appropriate (Longstrider, Bull's Strength, Keen Edge, Haste, like that).

Any or all of those.

Monk: how much damage do they deal? It needs to be appropriate. If their schtick is still punching guys in the face, they need full BAB. Maybe give them a "light step/karumi-jutsu" thing like constant Pass Without Trace, Water Walk, and Air Walk (as they go up in level). I would swap the whole "Ki strike" thing for just allowing them to reduce hardness/DR by their level (or hell, maybe that in addition to ki strike, which lets them flat-out ignore specific kinds).

Paladin: maybe make Remove Disease something "Remove Affliction", which can also cure poison, ability damage, negative levels, paralysis, etc. At upper levels, I have no problem with just letting them cast stuff like Holy Smite, Holy Word, or Holy Aura when they use a Smite Evil (in addition to its normal effects).

Ranger: animal companion should be based on straight ranger level. Maybe a few flavor abilities (like at will Commune with Nature at higher level or something).

Rogue: I wouldn't advance sneak attack...it was already fine. Instead, swap Trap Sense (still ass) for letting them choose special abilities every 3 levels. Yes, that means we need filler for lvls 10 and 14; not sure what. At 14th, a constant Nondetection and Misdirection wouldn't be overpowered (call it "Sleight of Identity").
Last edited by PoliteNewb on Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JonSetanta »

The objective here wasn't to create new things this time! I've done plenty of that.

This compression concept takes pre-existing non-caster class abilities and provides them earlier. That's all.


... But the class suggestions are well noted.
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Post by tussock »

Interesting. Here's more what I think you need to be in the game.

Fighter: All Combat Feats as fixed class abilities, at whatever level they're minimally achievable. 5/4 BAB, +1/4 AC, all good saves, heavy armour ease. Crappy spellcasting (Pal/Rgr, maybe as PPs) for basic anti-magic and divination and movement and mount finding (thematically from your awesum $weapon, but without really needing one).

Monk: 4/4 BAB, d12 HD, 8 skills, flurry with weapons, faster unarmed dice up to 2d20 or so, light armour ease, extra +10' speed unarmoured. /Way/ more movement spells, and some Charms and Necro. Cast like a PsiWar rather than x/day stuff. Stunning Blow as an unlimited swift cantrip, all splatty monk feats as swift powers. Gestalt in all the useful Ninja stuff for first strike fun and extra pain on the stunned.

Rgr: Favoured enemy at least +2 per level for all picks (and Humanoid as one pick). Spell progression to Bard-like. Bows and swords, duh. Druid pets and more Druid spells of fiery death. d10 HD, 5/4 BAB. Give them a good few Wizard spells too.

Pal: Smite Evil save or die plus d6/level. Cha-based spont divine spells as Bard. Dragon mounts. Classic holy avenger powers as spells (so they can cast anti-magic shell and such). Fold in your favourite class that does something interesting, be it bluemagic, auras, psi, weeaboo, or whatever.

Bard: All skills. All spells and psi and bluemagic and auras and weeaboo, but only like a Bard. 4/4 BAB. d10 HD. Bardsong at will. Can reselect feats in 10 minutes, and countersong everything. JOAT.

Barbarian and Psiwar: Gestalt, can use powers as swift while raging. More feats, and probably more PPs).

Rogue: fold in Ninja and Spellthief and Lurk. All skills, d8 HD. +1/4 AC.

Cleric: spont domains. No turn undead (make it and all it's funky attachments into regular spells).

Src: -1 ECL. All metamagic.

Wizard: Wins regardless, which is as it should be. All item creation.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

I'd take levels in this monk class even with 3/4 BAB, although I'd bail after level 3 or 8.

The unarmed strike, however, is still hardly ever worth using. I'd probably go with 1d10 at 1st, 2d6 at 4th, 2d8 at 9th, and 2d10 at 10th. This puts it just on the edge of worthwhile, at least until you can get your hands on a nice magic stick.

The speed progression is also a bit odd, encouraging previously mentioned breakpoints. 1, 4, 5, 7, 9, and 10 is probably a more balance option.

You also need the AC bonus as well. They should probably get at least +3 (studded leather) right off the bat, so the additional +1 can probably come in at level 5.
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Post by JonSetanta »

What would "-1 ECL" do? A free template?
Last edited by JonSetanta on Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

sigma999 wrote:What would "-1 ECL" do? A free template?
I think the idea is to get all spell casting a level earlier. The use of "ECL" is unfortunate.
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Post by JonSetanta »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I think the idea is to get all spell casting a level earlier. The use of "ECL" is unfortunate.
Ah that makes sense, the sorcerer does need a boost
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Post by Username17 »

At 20th level, you could have all published fighter feats, including all of the tactical feats, and all the weird crap like grenadier from splats. And you'd still suck.

-Username17
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Post by JonSetanta »

FrankTrollman wrote:At 20th level, you could have all published fighter feats, including all of the tactical feats, and all the weird crap like grenadier from splats. And you'd still suck.

-Username17
That's obvious.

... but at least for a little while, among the lower levels, they should suck less.

The compressed Fighter here made me laugh. It's just a row of feats as a class ability. At least it will fare better than having dead levels.
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Post by For Valor »

Well, I think the feat from ToB that grants a maneuver or stance is qualified as a fighter feat.... So if you had that for all the ToB maneuvers, you'd actually be quite decent.
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Post by Kaelik »

For Valor wrote:Well, I think the feat from ToB that grants a maneuver or stance is qualified as a fighter feat.... So if you had that for all the ToB maneuvers, you'd actually be quite decent.
Limit of taking it 3 times. So no.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Kaelik wrote:Limit of taking it 3 times. So no.
Fucking RAW...
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Post by For Valor »

oh, well then....
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Post by Sunwitch »

the problem in a nutshell is that the class features that these classes have aren't any good in the first place; giving them the same class features in a shorter span of levels just gives them irrelevant abilities faster than they otherwise would.
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Post by PoliteNewb »

Mauver wrote:the problem in a nutshell is that the class features that these classes have aren't any good in the first place; giving them the same class features in a shorter span of levels just gives them irrelevant abilities faster than they otherwise would.
I disagree. Some of them aren't bad...at lower levels. So the very fact that you get them earlier, actually makes them better...because you're using them against opposition that doesn't render them irrelevant.

That said, some of them simply aren't enough...because they're competing with spells, which are a.) very broad-reaching and versatile in effect, b.) fairly powerful, and c.) customizable on a day-to-day basis. That is stiff competition.

Still, at lower levels, having the class features "I have a lot of hit points" and "when I bash people with a stick, they usually die" are actually much more worthwhile than at higher levels.
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Post by JonSetanta »

The background of this concept was thusly;

Some BG members and I were discussing tiers, altered XP progressions, and slowing down spellcaster progressions.

I figured we could go about it a different way. Instead of slowing the spellcaster, speed up the non-caster.

20 levels of "warrior" classes is now equal to a gestalt character, compared to 20 levels of a single full caster. No XP adjustment is required, and spell slots remain within the 20-level window.
Yes, yes, I realize the former sucks and the latter is god, but it's still better off than what we had before.
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Post by tussock »

FrankTrollman wrote:At 20th level, you could have all published fighter feats, including all of the tactical feats, and all the weird crap like grenadier from splats. And you'd still suck.
Right. How many times can you cut your way into the belly of the infinite devourer and sever his attachment to the seven realities by destroying one of your artifact sets in his gizzard before it gets trite? Surely someone will notice that the quests always involve swording something with AC 60 and magic immunity, like you're giving a fully buffed fighter something to do.

Or, you know, the dragon casts anti-magic shell and swallows the Wizard, and all of a sudden the Fighter being 60' away is a good thing. Over and over again.

But then I remember the Cleric and Druid can do all that too, and cry. You know, back in OD&D, it took swords to be really cool, and only fighters got to use them.
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