The Gaming Den

Neeek wrote:Well, the main problem with the Warlock as I see it is their Invocations are generally gained too late. I'd do everything you did, but move the categories forward a level each (lesser at 5th, whatever the third level whose name I can't remember at 9th, dark at 13th, and another level that doesn't exist yet at 17th.)

I assume you are including a rewrite of hideous blow that removes that AoO from using it.

Hideous blow: yep. And: good idea, thanks; that means one'd have to make the highest-level invocations, though.

Bigode at [unixtime wrote:1186606571[/unixtime]]Just to clarify, is that because limited-use abilities are reset with each form? If that's the case, is there a basis for saying that it actually is (not that I think it's un-break shapechange, of course, as it'd just be a matter of finding multiple wishing monsters to get multiple wishes out of a single spell that is supposed to be as powerful as one wish)?

The problem is that there's no basis for comparison of monster abilities. Every set of abilities is ideally internally balanced, but Cornugons cast persistent image at will and only have 3 fireballs and 3 lightning bolts each day. There's no rhyme or reason for that, they just do. So using up the limited spells from Cornugon form isn't really meaningful contrasted with say the 3/day earthquake or mass charm that a Solar gets.

Worse, while some Supernatural Abilities are continuous buffs (like the Chronotyrin double action bullshit), other Supernatural Abilities are fire-and-forget (like a Phoenix's "win D&D" or a Zodar's Rush of Strength or Alter Reality). It doesn't even matter if you force the player to keep a memory of which bullshit abilities he has cranked through when the monster book pile has gotten thick enough.

If a Druid has made his 1 wish as an Air Element Pit Fiend this year he'll just use his Fire Element Pit Fiend wish today.

-Username17

I laugh when I think of how 3.0, and by relation 3.5e, were passed off as fixed and balanced compared to AD&D, yet are so chock full of Sacred Cows that I swear only THAC0 and ability scores have changed.
It's like decking a house cat out like a horse, giving it a horse-appropriate name, and bit n bridle, riding it, then wondering why it buckled under the weight of such expectations.

Did the designers really think that by reworking every 'classic' monster they would somehow lose the essence of what makes D&D? pssshh

Well, as a new class with absolutely no previous history in all of D&D, I really expected it's debut to start fresh like a spring bud out of a pile o manure, but instead we got more shit.
Hideous Blow disappoints me the most out of all Warlock capabilities, since I really wanted to make a melee-style "I may look weak, but I will kick you so hard your ancestors' crotches will ache" without doing so once per round for sucky damage and really poorly at that.
The Invocations were a bad idea, and should have been more related to Arcane magic, alterable by metamagic feats in a unique but similar way, and even after all that useable at-will.
No reason other than taking more space in splatbooks and pumping out more Invocation-feats in Warlock-only sections/supplements as far as I can see.

I'd like more variable class options like the Dungeonomicon Monk, some elemental options however few, and some degree of crossover with actual Arcane spellcasting rather than Invocations. The latter could still be SLAs but I'd like a balanced, sane way to apply some of the abundant slot-based metamagic feats to them in some way.

Frank wrote:If a Druid has made his 1 wish as an Air Element Pit Fiend this year he'll just use his Fire Element Pit Fiend wish today.

True - I was thinking more along the lines of changing from pit fiend to zodar, completely forgetting to change from pit fiend to pseudonatural pit fiend, or something of the like.

BTW, what're the exploits you can imagine coming from a guy with Su abilities from aberrations (preferentially of CR up 15) - not that I'm thinking about giving access to it: another guy is, and I'd like to have some (objective) proof against the idea.

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1186708566[/unixtime]]

Bigode at [unixtime wrote:1186606571[/unixtime]]Just to clarify, is that because limited-use abilities are reset with each form? If that's the case, is there a basis for saying that it actually is (not that I think it's un-break shapechange, of course, as it'd just be a matter of finding multiple wishing monsters to get multiple wishes out of a single spell that is supposed to be as powerful as one wish)?

The problem is that there's no basis for comparison of monster abilities. Every set of abilities is ideally internally balanced, but Cornugons cast persistent image at will and only have 3 fireballs and 3 lightning bolts each day. There's no rhyme or reason for that, they just do. So using up the limited spells from Cornugon form isn't really meaningful contrasted with say the 3/day earthquake or mass charm that a Solar gets.

Worse, while some Supernatural Abilities are continuous buffs (like the Chronotyrin double action bullshit), other Supernatural Abilities are fire-and-forget (like a Phoenix's "win D&D" or a Zodar's Rush of Strength or Alter Reality). It doesn't even matter if you force the player to keep a memory of which bullshit abilities he has cranked through when the monster book pile has gotten thick enough.

If a Druid has made his 1 wish as an Air Element Pit Fiend this year he'll just use his Fire Element Pit Fiend wish today.

-Username17

Apparently, the monsters at higher levels are more kick-ass than the characters, what with all their at-wills, wishing, and other souped up stuff.

Bigode at [unixtime wrote:1186692480[/unixtime]] that means one'd have to make the highest-level invocations, though.

Only if you get that high. If the game ends before the Warlock hits 17th level, which is likely in most games, then there would be no need to make anything.

Neeek: Yep. The best stuff should mostly arrive or begin to become availible as valid, frequent tactics around level 5 and up IMO.

Frank, do you have any ideas for finishing the fire mage when you have the time?

Wish these were in Tomes, as I've stated elsewhere. Forgot they existed until just a few minutes ago.

I prefer the "get a Sphere" system of eventually gaining some 20 unlimited use (well, 5x/day for the Gate-styles) SLAs versus the idea of getting 110. Just for shear bookkeeping.

Also, Frank, I feel like no one would ever actually use the Eldritch Bolt for your warlock. They have so many other better options that they don't have to bother. One of the reasons I like the flavor of the Sphere-Warlock (even if it's underpowered for a Tome game) is because it keeps the "throw fire" action as a half-decent backup ability that gets used every once in a while. Also the MAD of your bolts makes them even more undesirable:

Also, if you are playing a Fire Mage or Sphere-lock, you have a reasonable suggestion for feats to take. Sniper, Point Blank Shot, and the Hiding skill feat are all solid character-shaping choices. Your 110-SLA Warlock seems to have ultimate power without adding in any feat choices. DMM Clerics clerics still have to make that choice, Druids still take Fast Wildshape or Natural Spell or whatever, but I can't come up with anything to augment your Warlock.

I think I would be happier if your warlock got something like 10 paths where only 1-2 of them got to be highest level at level 20, not that you are out to please me. At least then you could steal the abilities straight from the Sor/Wiz list and keep track of them better.

Spherelock.. heheh.

True tho, not all of them should have Eldritch Blast or similar. Would be easy to make a "Witch" adaptation out of this simply by changing the name.

Bump up for reference and...

I'm putting the Spherelock into the Tome pdf as we speak. What about the "pathlock", though? Anyone have ideas on what sort of spells we can add to the various paths to complete them? There are so many spells in D&D, even the more obscure ideas should be able to have a full path progression.

In retrospect, Ceilingcat's 'lock is more of a Spherelock.
This thing is a Pathlock, since the Paths operate differently (and incompletely, how sad)
I also prefer Ceilingcat's version. The Paths here work strangely, ilke with the Enhance Paths interaction (needs to be simpler) although it is nice to have invocations at will rather than x/day.

My suggestion is to make each Path diverse, with fewer lists to acquire but more options in each. Not everything needs to operate on the Domain/Sphere limited scale.
And no more Enhance Paths; the Paths will advance on their own with caster level.

I was always fairly sure one could TWF fire bursts and normal one-handed weaponry, but now I come across TWFing fire bursts and rays of light. That happens to invent a new brand of awesome (if actually valid - something I wonder about as well), but might be too much. Thoughts?

The Spherelock is a great addition to TToA (The Tome of Awesome), but I think it could use a bit of a face lift. For one, the second level gives nothing except +1d6 eldritch blast to a straight spherelock. A bit of fire resistance could be useful at that point. A bonus feat would probably be going too far.

You could throw in some honest blast invocations, in the form of a selectable list. This would either include or augment the existing ones. Alternate energy types, setting people on fire, lowering SR...

Bigode wrote:I was always fairly sure one could TWF fire bursts and normal one-handed weaponry, but now I come across TWFing fire bursts and rays of light. That happens to invent a new brand of awesome (if actually valid - something I wonder about as well), but might be too much. Thoughts?

I don't think there's an 'offhand' ray of fire or eyebeam. If it worked, however, it would be very powerful.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:TToA (The Tome of Awesome)

Bad name.

CatharzGodfoot wrote:The Spherelock is a great addition to TToA (The Tome of Awesome), but I think it could use a bit of a face lift. For one, the second level gives nothing except +1d6 eldritch blast to a straight spherelock. A bit of fire resistance could be useful at that point. A bonus feat would probably be going too far.

If you do manage to get revision from Cielingcat, please try with Koumei next. Though I'm ... not actually seeing the problem with starting fiendish similarities off with one such feat - mind explaining?

CatharzGodfoot wrote:You could throw in some honest blast invocations, in the form of a selectable list. This would either include or augment the existing ones. Alternate energy types, setting people on fire, lowering SR...

Hm, one could say in its favor that it's simple. Not my personal preference as far things I wanna play, but might be valuable given some players, for various reasons (note also that "magical" characters tend to be on the high end of complexity, so simplicity in one of them might be especially valuable). Though I'm not saying I'm sure it's a bad idea, and I'd definitely love it if any class could be converted from simple to complex without changing the concept represented much, but I guess that's a pipe dream ...

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I don't think there's an 'offhand' ray of fire or eyebeam. If it worked, however, it would be very powerful.

Hm, you have 2 weapons. Do you think the fact that none's allocated to a literal hand means you can't TWF? Possibly right and surely better for balance, of course ...

Bigode wrote:

CatharzGodfoot wrote:I don't think there's an 'offhand' ray of fire or eyebeam. If it worked, however, it would be very powerful.

Hm, you have 2 weapons. Do you think the fact that none's allocated to a literal hand means you can't TWF? Possibly right and surely better for balance, of course ...

You also get into the realm of 'attack action abilities' vs. 'weapons', which is fuzzy in the rules. Remember that Weapon Focus apparently requires a special exception to apply to 'touch attacks'. A supernatural ability that allows you to make ranged touch attacks is by no means a 'weapon' in any normal sense.

The most RAW ruling I can come up with is that when you make an attack or full attack action (possibly using your supernatural attack), you can make the appropriate number of off-hand attacks using an actual off-hand weapon as well.

I think there's no reason for "Weaponlike Spells" in Complete Shit not apply to Sp and Su abilties as well, if it's assumed it worked decently with spells in the first place. Not to say we necessarily disagree. And your reading of TWF seems to be the most defensible for many reasons. What about the spherelock, though?

Bigode wrote:What about the spherelock, though?

A bonus feat is good for second level, but it does make for a very strong start.

And yeah, there are some big advantages to making spheres the only selectable class features.

What about giving each Invocation Path a special ability that scales based on how far you are into the chain? Maybe a skill bonus or something. What about giving 2 "insert name" (I'll use 'Path Points') per level and each time you put a path point into one of the paths, you go up by one step on the list, capping the limit on how far you have gone in your path to half your level. So a 7th level Warlock could have put up to 3 path points in any one path and has invested 14 so far. That would make them slightly less 'I get everything castable by this class as an at-will ability' and turn them into 'I get most everything I'm capable of casting as an at-will ability.'

Woodrow-.- wrote:What about giving each Invocation Path a special ability that scales based on how far you are into the chain? Maybe a skill bonus or something. What about giving 2 "insert name" (I'll use 'Path Points') per level and each time you put a path point into one of the paths, you go up by one step on the list, capping the limit on how far you have gone in your path to half your level. So a 7th level Warlock could have put up to 3 path points in any one path and has invested 14 so far. That would make them slightly less 'I get everything castable by this class as an at-will ability' and turn them into 'I get most everything I'm capable of casting as an at-will ability.'

That warlock was made before the sphere mechanics were conceived, and they were a better idea all-around, so the OP class' dead ... and rightly so IMO (AFAICT, it'd be overpowered compared to most in the Tomes, and the full spellcasters Frank compared it to did suffer some downward adjustment). And if you wanna see a way more workable at-will-only class, try this (while I still regard the OP as a pretty good fix on WotC material, I mean Frank's below, that indeed works better).

Bigode wrote:I was always fairly sure one could TWF fire bursts and normal one-handed weaponry, but now I come across TWFing fire bursts and rays of light. That happens to invent a new brand of awesome (if actually valid - something I wonder about as well), but might be too much. Thoughts?

Well, ok. I guess you can have spell casters dual wielding wands out of the box.

But it starts with this:



And turns into this:

Heh, no dual-wielding Sp abilities, and no dual-wielding wands ...

question on the 4th level ability of the spherelock, what is the duration for the outsiders summoned?

The Summon ability lasts 1 hour unless otherwise stated.

-Username17