Everyone should be aware

[RandomCasualty]

Am I the only one who thinks spot and listen checks should simply be a d20+ hit dice +/- racial mods?

I find spending skill points in these skills to be pretty stupid. When you're level 10 your character should be more observant than when he was level 1, just from all the experience he gained.

Classes that we want to naturally be more observant, like the ranger, we can give special class bonuses at different levels to the check.

For monster races we want to be especially observant or not observant at all, we simply grant racial penalties or say stuff like "Deaf: automatically fails all listen checks."

Seeing stuff should be a natural thing that gets better as you do. If you want to have that be part of your character then you can take stuff like alertness or ranger class abilities.

[Crissa]

This doesn't help those who have super-sneak or invisibility, etc.

But it's an interesting idea. I like it. ...Except for the part where it's another set of stats to look for.

-Crissa

[canamrock]

It'd be easier to just combine the skills into a single "Awareness" or "Observational Badassdom" skill and/or let it be in-class for everyone. That way, it's a lot easier for very experienced adventurers to not suck as badly at figuring out whether something's sneaking up on them as a youngin'.

[RandomCasualty]

What I don't like about having it be a skill is that people then have to spend points on it and classes with 2 points per level are probably not going to be very aware. And really, I don't care if you're an int 6 half orc, if you're a level 10, you should be pretty damn aware. You've seen a lot of combat and honed your battle reflexes to a peak human level.

Being aware should be something you get automatically.

And for most monsters it would simplify things just to say that its awareness is equal to its hit dice. Sure, we could boost that up for some and reduce it for others, but as a baseline I think it actaully makes things simpler, because its two less skill ratings we have to worry about.

There are very few high level challenges that we want to be completely unaware, and the current system really encourages many classes to be completely unaware of everything around them.

[Username17]

There really are people who are very powerful and not aware in stories though. While Conan, Lina Inverse, or Sinbad all have a tendency to start talking to ninjas sneaking up on them before the ninja has gotten into position to attack - a lot of other characters don't. Prince Phillip is a total badass, but if there's a bunch of goblins hiding in the cottage they get the jump on him all the time. Mellissa the Cleric of Myrii basically wouldn't notice a plot point if it was nailed to her left hand - and she helps beat down a wall of force with her hands.

Being the unobservant guy is actually kind of fun, provided that someone in the party is observant and it doesn't constantly kill your character.

So no, everyone doesn't need to be aware. However, more people should be aware. It's reatarded that the only creatures in the game with good perception skills are the party scout and monsters. I do not think that we have to go all the way to Shadowrun where player characters fit on a spectrum which runs from very observant to extremely observant - that simply doesn't match the genre expectations. Many powerful characters are supposed to not see shit. That's a genre trope, and dropping it is not a good idea.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

Well, your hit dice as a base bonus isn't really all that great. It gives you a chance, yes but it doesn't make you totally observant.

Consider that at its base, the hide check is going to be 3 points higher + the guy's dex, assuming the guy maxed the skill, which is a pretty safe assumption.

So you're probably looking at a 7 point difference right there, assuming 18 dex and even levels. Now you subtract further a -1 for every 10 feet of distance from the spot check, and it's not all that hard to move unseen.

This doesn't even begin to count people with boots or cloaks of elvenkind or skill focus.

[Username17]

Why even have hide checks at that point? Why not just make Spot an unmodified roll, with no hide skill either (but you get to add your dex modifier and some flat bonuses if you happen to be a rogue)?

If you are going to take the possibility of customization out of a game mechanic, there's no reason to have it scale at all.

And you are still taking a genre trope (the unobservant archmage or knight) and removing it from the game. And apparently for no reason save to make the game a bit more complicated.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1090650027[/unixtime]]
If you are going to take the possibility of customization out of a game mechanic, there's no reason to have it scale at all.

It's still customizeable you just take alertness feat if you want to be more alert, and certain classes/races you want to be alert get more benefits. The point is it gives you a better starting point than 0, and one that is actually "less" complicated, since it's simply the guy's hit dice, a stat you know already.

And you are still taking a genre trope (the unobservant archmage or knight) and removing it from the game. And apparently for no reason save to make the game a bit more complicated.

Well, Yeah, to some degree it is, but it's better IMO to the "everyone except rangers and rogues can't see shit." paradigm. Right now you can't play an observant warrior, cleric or wizard. By default you're blind as a bat.

D&D really isn't big on creating flawed characters anyway so I don't think it's especially bad. If you want a character with a critical flaw then you can use the flaws system from Unearthed Arcana. But having the unobservant flaw shouldn't be the default, like it is under the core. It should be a separate flaw that you choose, because the default high level character is not that unobservant.

[User3]

Why not just make Spot and Listen class skills for everybody? That way, if you want to have an observant fighter or whatever, you at least have the option, but you preserve the "oblivious archmage" archetype if somebody decides he wants to play it.

Possibly this would need to be tied to a slight general increase in skill points per level -- not that this particularly bothers me; would anyone really mind if the minimum number of skill points/level for any PC class was 4 instead of 2?

--d.

[RandomCasualty]

1090657196[/unixtime]]
Why not just make Spot and Listen class skills for everybody? That way, if you want to have an observant fighter or whatever, you at least have the option, but you preserve the "oblivious archmage" archetype if somebody decides he wants to play it.

Possibly this would need to be tied to a slight general increase in skill points per level -- not that this particularly bothers me; would anyone really mind if the minimum number of skill points/level for any PC class was 4 instead of 2?

Yeah, that would be one other way to handle it, though it's a little simpler if you just eliminate the skills entirely and make it a hit dice check. The other problem with making it a universal class skill is that people who you want to be exceptionally observant, like rangers, now need stuff above and beyond the skill.

I really wonder how many people really want to play the oblivious archmage though. I've played with a lot of D&D characters, and giving their characters disadvantages is not something they will commonly do. Usually the only time they'll willingly take a flaw is if they get something tangible back for it.

I mean the weak willed warrior may be another common archetype, but few people are going to want to be the pawn of every will save effect either, so I'm really not too concerned about denying PCs the ability to play characters with big flaws, because generally PCs really don't care.

People don't ask to be the fighter with only one hand very often, or the wizard who needs glasses... so generally I don't really care all that much. If they really desire to play a character with such a disability, I'm sure the DM could arrange something as a house rule, but it doesnt' happen often enough that you should really care much about it from a design point of view.

[canamrock]

When it's a class skill for everyone, it becomes a viable option. For classes such as Fighers and Sorcerers, which don't grant so many skill points per level, honing one's senses is more costly against the other available choices. Meanwhile, classes such as the ranger and rogue which both already have access and many skill points can be fully effective without much cost at all.

As an aside, I once had to listen to a big fan of the Deadlands RPG complain about D&D. One complaint was that PC's couldn't really be flawed like that (missing a hand was his big example) normally.

If you want some classes to really excel at awareness, just let them receive a cheap bonus feat or two.