Bhutto has just been assassinated.

[Lago_AM3P]

Anyone else feel really, really ill right now?

Head hurts... should've taken break from CNN...

[technomancer]

I have absolutely no idea who that person is. A google search tells me about a pakistani leader who was executed in 1979, and wikipedia only talks about a wealthy indian family that was granted lands by the british government. Call me a heathen, but who is this Bhutto?

[Crissa]

Bhutto funded the Taliban and supported Charlie's War. She was found guilty of corruption charges in the mid-90's while president of Pakistan. She's a secular, capitalist woman in charge of a socialist party.

She was marked for death. Al Qaeda has claimed responsibility.

I don't think this affects the US, in any way, really. Not even though this may give our buddy Mushariff reason to halt the elections and solidify his position. We can hope he doesn't do that, but instead lets the elections run, which would help him in the public's and world's eyes.

-Crissa

[MrWaeseL]

I'm having a good laugh at the local news saying she was killed by 'either Taliban or Al Qaeda'.

"yeah it was either the Tamil Tigers or the ETA"

[Username17]

Bhutto was corrupt of course, but the specific charges against her were bogus. There just happens to be a loophole where the president of Pakistan can dismiss the government if he files corruption charges first, so Ghulam Ishaq Khan did that twice against two different governments. He was up to pull it a third time but the excuse was wearing thin.

Bhutto's policy towards the Taliban was complicated. She supported it in the 90s and condemned it in the 2000s. Weirdly, her government took in female escapees from the brutal Taliban regime even as it gave financial and military support to the same regime.

She lived her life with few scruples and a firm belief in Real Politik. And that made her the most rational and progressive voive in Pakistani politics. That country is so fucked.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

She's been in the newspapers and on TV for weeks now. I read up on her corrupt history recently, after mention of it here.
Until her wicked past was brought up, though, I assumed she was just some Arab royalty parading around for the 'people's support'. I read up on her money-grubbing and thought "holy shit..."

Are you joking about her death? That's odd news. I'll go look this up...

[Fwib]

I heard on the radio that apparently they are now saying: "Shot to death? No, no, she hit her head"

[Zherog]

Yeah, I saw that on CNN's site as well.

[Captain_Bleach]

Who killed her, if known?

[Crissa]

Okay, Al Qaeda is claiming responsibility; they've nailed it down to a specific guy.

She wasn't shot at all - apparently it was a lever from the convertible roof which bashed in her skull and really killed her. The explosion also killed over twenty others, some rather horrifically.

Before and After

-Crissa

[Username17]

She wasn't shot at all - apparently it was a lever from the convertible roof which bashed in her skull and really killed her.

This is the official line of the Pakistan government, but it is not true. The Pakistan government says that it is clear that she was not shot because X-Rays show that there was no foreign body in her. The hospial which actually treated her however reported exit wounds.

Palistan's government lies all the time. The fact that they have announced that she wasn't shot, despite not having performed an autopsy, means precisely fuck all.

-Username17

[Interested2]

Honestly, it would surprise me not at all if Mushariff was behind this - Bhutto was a media darling and still very popular in Pakistan, not to mention the biggest threat to him winning the elections he is supposedly having in January.

Don't get me wrong, Bhutto was not a nice person - but she was right about a lot of things, and Mushariff being a dictator in waiting is one of them.

[cthulhu]

I'm not sure musharrif being a dictator is that bad, because the likely/possible alternative, ie a islamist party winning, is possibly worse.

The biggest problem with butto getting offed is that it helps destabilize the country, and that is likely to be bad.

[Fwib]

Are Islamic parties really all so much worse than other-religionist parties?
I don't pay much attention to mainland Europe politics, but there seem to be a bunch of parties with 'Christian' in their names there, and I understand that there are a load of other-religion parties in the east.

Am I just not hearing about the terrible policies of everyone else? [edit] or the stuff they actually do, rather than what they actually say.

[Maj]

Islamist is a confusing term because it's really close to Islamic. Islamist = Islamic + Fundamentalist. So when an Islamist party comes into power, that's generally not going to be considered a good thing.

[Koumei]

Well, here in Australia there are a few Christian parties, and we all do our best to keep them out of power. One is Fascist First, that wants to impose "what we think good, proper, Christian family values are" on every one, as though it's their business. ZIG HEIL!

I can't remember what the other one is called, but no-one likes them either. They usually enjoy the last few preference slots, along with One Nation (the racist party).

[Crissa]

It's possible there was a through shot, but there's no real evidence of it as well. It'll be awhile until we know, if ever.

If we were under the Clinton Presidency, we'd be loaning out FBI forensics experts to UN teams and we'd really know.

But we're not, are we?

-Crissa

[Fwib]

1198977722[/unixtime]]Islamist is a confusing term because it's really close to Islamic. Islamist = Islamic + Fundamentalist. So when an Islamist party comes into power, that's generally not going to be considered a good thing.

A bit of searching shows that different people use the same spelling for different meanings, some of them the fundamentalism, and some of them using it to mean something like 'islamic' but without necessarily crazy leanings.

[Koumei]

Does it actually matter whether or not she died of being shot? I mean, someone *did* shoot at her to try to kill her. She is also dead. So whether their bullet killed her, or her diving for cover killed her, she still died as a result of that attack.

If this was Quake or whatever, then I understand that it would make a difference, due to the killer getting a point, but it's real life. Essentially, they killed her.

Unless the real point is to find the bullet and use that to identify who killed her, which doesn't seem very likely. The best it could do is find which gun fired it (assuming they can get hold of that gun to match the hammer to the dent in the bullet/cartridge) and who manufactured the bullet.

It just seems a bit odd.

[cthulhu]

The problem with pakistan, and for that matter all the repressive islamic states is that the only remaining outlet for anti government dissent is the mosque.

However the mosque is very easily hijacked by extremists, hence the Faustian pact that the Saudi's have with wahabists. (however you spell that) And the muslim brotherhood in egypt isn't exactly sweetness and light either.

[Maj]

A bit of searching shows that different people use the same spelling for different meanings, some of them the fundamentalism, and some of them using it to mean something like 'islamic' but without necessarily crazy leanings.

I think that sort of deliberate confusion was intended when the term was widely spread by the media after 9/11.

[Username17]

If the government can deny that she was hit by a bullet (she was hit by a fucking bullet, doctor's descriptions at the time trump everything); then they can deny her a martyr's death. If her death was an accident near an assassination attempt, then she doesn't get 72 virgins or whatever.

Islamically, that's actually an important theological point.

-Username17

[Koumei]

That rates amongst the dumbest things I've ever read, but whatever floats their boat. So they desperately want her to have simply screwed up and not be a martyr with all the love and rewards of such, when the fact of the matter is she was shot.

Well, governments are always trying the "If I say it enough, maybe it'll come true." approach.

[Username17]

Right. See if she was killed by a weapon while campaigning (which she was), then she is up for the Islamic equivalent of sainthood. If that happens, then people can take over the country in her name in order to run things as she would have wanted.

It seems a completely pointless point to westerners. But killed by a weapon held by the unrighteous is very different in terms of what other people can do about you than is slain by Allah near a battlefield.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

1199015912[/unixtime]]Right. See if she was killed by a weapon while campaigning (which she was), then she is up for the Islamic equivalent of sainthood. If that happens, then people can take over the country in her name in order to run things as she would have wanted.

It seems a completely pointless point to westerners. But killed by a weapon held by the unrighteous is very different in terms of what other people can do about you than is slain by Allah near a battlefield.

-Username17

I trust you've read or heard of the various Catholic mysticisms concerning sainthood, no?
It's not too far off.