Interesting reads about MMORPGs

[Bigode]

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/

I don't actually play any myself, but some of the articles seem pretty interesting, and it certainly might be of more interest to those who actually play.

[MrWaeseL]

While playing EverQuest (the original) my constant group had just moved into a new territory. We were engaged in fighting some regular mobs when suddenly the baddest mob in that territory attacked us. Now we had already been killed once or twice by that mob, so our natural reaction was to run. But, one of our members had been rooted in the previous engagement. I was the tank, so I engaged to give time to my companion for the root to break. My group returned and we fought the baddest mob in the region and beat it. My heart still picks up a beat when I remember that fight. [WoW, M, 45]

After playing WoW for about a year, my friends and I joined up with another small guild and headed into The Core. We all worked hard as hell to succeed, and put in many hours out of game in order to advance the group in MC. On about our sixth attempt on Lucifron we killed him. I've never felt so elated. I've competed on sports teams, worked hard academically, and played many another video game, but I've never felt so elated, such a sense of accomplishment. [WoW, M, 20]

[Crissa]

Yes, working as a group to complete even temporary goals can be fulfilling.

Uh, so, what's the point, though?

-Crissa

[Captain_Bleach]

1200616199[/unixtime]]Yes, working as a group to complete even temporary goals can be fulfilling.

Uh, so, what's the point, though?

-Crissa

If I had to guess, Mr. Weasel is making fun of people for feeling proud that they play WoW.

[Koumei]

I think it's the "I've never felt so elated" part. It amuses me that one of the most memorable, defining moments in that person's life is a victory in a computer game.

[Crissa]

It's no different than victory with a team in any other engagement or sport. Not everyone can or does get to do team climbing or other 'extreme' sports, so what's the big deal?

It's like managing to pull off the hail mary in high school football. And there are some for which that is the high point of their lives.

Should we really begrudge them that bit of camaraderie?

-Crissa

[Captain_Bleach]

1200623471[/unixtime]]It's no different than victory with a team in any other engagement or sport. Not everyone can or does get to do team climbing or other 'extreme' sports, so what's the big deal?

It's like managing to pull off the hail mary in high school football. And there are some for which that is the high point of their lives.

Should we really begrudge them that bit of camaraderie?

-Crissa

Why not? In order to feel good about ourselves and to ignore the fact that we are essentially like them (obsessing over a hobby), we alienate them for a similar hobby, thus becoming hypocrites. It is the way of the Internet.

[Koumei]

I think anyone's defining moments in life sound stupid to anyone else, so I'm not exactly begrudging them. It just sounds as stupid/funny to me as my key moments would sound to them.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I feel bad for people whose best moments in life revolve around gaming in some way.

[Cynic]

1200632100[/unixtime]]I feel bad for people whose best moments in life revolve around gaming in some way.

Would you feel bad if someone's best moment revolved around another hobby of theirs?

I knew someone who trained as a swimmer as a hobby. It wasn't his profession, his school sport, or community event.

He did it for plain fun.

after one summer, he either swam from new jersey to NYC or some such similar feat.

he was elated beyond measure. I'm sure he would consider that a defining moment/best moment in his life.

is it silly from that perspective?

In an MMO, you put in a lot of man hours to get that one character with taht one set/tier gear that finally is able to harness all of that energy to help in that one instance/dungeon that you've heard of since that first time you you popped up as northman barbarian/Gnome Warlock.

It might seem a baser sort of joy but how is it any different?

if someone says that my friend's accomplishment is a much hardier and much more magnificent accomplishment than when I finally was able to weave many many bard songs in old, old EQ or when I was able to go toe-to-toe with that one silver/gold undead elite in WoW, then I"d probably say that they might be right.

But that has two factors behind it.

I, personally, probably don't place too much importance on the game.

2. the two accomplishments are miles away from each other. one is predominantly physical and the other involves a more time-investment.

I don't think we should find it sad that someone's best moment in life is based around something incredibly small.

Seriously, let's take this into a roleplaying situation, we've all had characters who probably excelled at that rather esoteric skill or ability and they probably took pride in that.

If i ever did play a character with craft (basketweaving) and had that optimized, I would be proud of that. But that's a rather silly skill compared to the almighty druid who looks down upon me while shaped like a Treant.

These days I find my biggest accomplishments are my marriage and my child but I remember days when either finishing the LOTR series four times in a week or beating FF7 at level 18 (or was it 20) after almost 200 hours of play was grand.

While beating ff7 at a low-level is no longer a magnificent goal for me at this point, i can definitely appreciate the amount of dedication I put into it and I recognize that it was important at one point to me.
~~

[Crissa]

Any idiot can have a child. Cases: Brittney Spears, and her little sister. If anything, that would make me too depressed to go through the effort.

Really, not everyone can, or should, swim across the Hudson. Nor is that a group affair.

What's your high point, Count?

I've hiked to the top of mountains and to the ends of caves and still... They were fun, but it was just a hike. It was just as much a time investment as playing Warcraft, and not alot more creative, either. Although I did get course credit for one.

-Crissa

[Count Arioch the 28th]

My point is that gaming is essentially a frivolous pursuit.

You could have spent those hours of your life getting the "phat lewtz" doing any number of things, of varying usefulness. Instead, you decided to spend your time in an imaginary world getting imaginary items while your body atrophies to the point of uselessness.

If you can't see how worthless that is, then you and I are so out of touch in our life experiences that I might as well be speaking swahili while you jam your fingers in your ears and sing loudly for all the good it will do me to debate this with you.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1200634167[/unixtime]]

1200632100[/unixtime]]I feel bad for people whose best moments in life revolve around gaming in some way.

Would you feel bad if someone's best moment revolved around another hobby of theirs?

Depends on the hobby. I could respect someone who swam from new york to new jersey more than I could respect anyone that uses WoW to avoid their actual life.

[Crissa]

Count, they have as much to show for both. Pictures, memories, skills which don't apply to daily life.

Imaginary items? They're as real as the money needed to pay for your rent.

-Crissa

[Draco_Argentum]

1200635569[/unixtime]]My point is that gaming is essentially a frivolous pursuit.

So is life in general. Owning that Porsche/ winning that election/ curing that disease all equate to nothing after a long enough time step. Some things just require a longer time step.

[Neeek]

1200632100[/unixtime]]I feel bad for people whose best moments in life revolve around gaming in some way.

Um...Why?

The closest friends I have I either met gaming or as a direct result of gaming. The only woman I've ever loved, I met through gaming (Settlers of Catan. She won. It's the only time I've ever not won that game). The easiest way I've ever found to meet people is through gaming.

I may not have a terrible lot of time for games these days, but the activity is quite acceptable, as far as I'm concerned.

[Neeek]

1200635569[/unixtime]]My point is that gaming is essentially a frivolous pursuit.

You could have spent those hours of your life getting the "phat lewtz" doing any number of things, of varying usefulness. Instead, you decided to spend your time in an imaginary world getting imaginary items while your body atrophies to the point of uselessness.

If you can't see how worthless that is, then you and I are so out of touch in our life experiences that I might as well be speaking swahili while you jam your fingers in your ears and sing loudly for all the good it will do me to debate this with you.

Considering the difficulties you claim to have in your own life, forgive me if I'm quite happy not being in touch with your life experiences.

Given the choice between being happy and being you, every sane person would choose being happy.

Frankly, people who regard gaming as a frivolous pursuit are both misguided and mistaken. Being happy isn't just good, it's the only good from pretty much every ethical standpoint. If making time for games makes you happy, you're doing just fine, as far as I'm concern.

The truth is this: I'd rather be happy than successful. And if I wanted to be successful, then that's what I'd be.

[Koumei]

1200646624[/unixtime]]
Some things just require a longer time step.

From the point of view of the immortal Universe with a more or less infinite timespan, a week and a millennium are close enough to be the same thing.

Or so I hear. Having not been an immortal Universe with a more or less infinite timespan, I can't verify this.

Anyway, as you said, once you die, everything you did stops mattering insofar as it pertains to you as an individual. And any legacies you leave still aren't affecting you, as you are dead and not coming back.

And I have to say, most of my friends, and most of the girls I've fallen for, I met through gaming, or through people I met through gaming. Back when I was doing tabletop stuff, we'd basically gather around to socialise, except with the game also happening as a way of dividing our attention and letting everyone unwind.

Besides, talking about stabbing orcs in the face is much more interesting than talking about "work was pretty boring this week."

[Draco_Argentum]

1200651099[/unixtime]]Anyway, as you said, once you die, everything you did stops mattering insofar as it pertains to you as an individual. And any legacies you leave still aren't affecting you, as you are dead and not coming back.

Correct but I was being more general than that. Some people will claim that even though the above is true advancing civilisation is meaningful. These people just need to take a larger time step. As far as cosmology is concerned human influence won't be changing what happens at the end of the universe.

[MrWaeseL]

If the best moments in your life are from a MMORPG you are beyond pathetic and the best thing to do for you at this point would be a bullet to the brain stem.

I can sorta understand having good memories from a tabletop game, since those are at least social, but if you are seriously high-fiving yourself at 2am basking in the blue glow of a computer screen because you downed a group of pixels that vaguely look like a dragon then there is really no help for you.

And I play wow. It can be a fun game in moderation. However I would never describe any of my experiences in the game in the way I bolded in my first post.

[tzor]

1200621926[/unixtime]]I think it's the "I've never felt so elated" part. It amuses me that one of the most memorable, defining moments in that person's life is a victory in a computer game.

I don't really see any problem with that. Elation has nothing to do whatsoever with physical exertion but emotional exertion. True elation comes from snapping victory from the jaws of defeat during a period where you are nucertain if you have a chance at all.

One of the moments that made me the most elated was through role playing, when the party I was in defeated the draco liche (which we originally thought was just a green dragon - turns out we spent the first few turns attacking not a sleeping dragon but the discarded hide of the draco liche). We went from "we can do this," to "OMG this is going to be a total party kill" to "SHIT we're alive ... well most of us are anyway ... the rest we can carry back to town."

[Koumei]

Well, as I said, it seems funny to me, but to each their own - people can't do a very good job of understanding themselves, let alone anyone else.

I'd say I tend to feel more elated and more of a rush from physical things, due to the release of endorphins that happens, but I don't play sport, so "physical things" and "social things" are completely different for me. So feeling good happens as a result of jogging, climbing, fighting or self-abuse, but things I'd actually note down in a diary have all been linked to other people, and time spent with them.

Besides, I just don't want to agree with Waesel, because ever since I did it that one time, I feel dirty doing so. It's like finding out the tyrant Dong Zhuo had the same taste in clothes as I do. Which I hope he didn't.

[MrWaeseL]

It's like finding out the tyrant Dong Zhuo had the same taste in clothes as I do. Which I hope he didn't.

I would feel insulted but that's just too obscure.

[Daiba]

He's one of the villains from Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Or, at least, that's what comes to mind first.

[technomancer]

I can sorta understand having good memories from a tabletop game, since those are at least social

After playing WoW for about a year, my friends and I joined up with another small guild and headed into The Core.

So, I guess playing with friends and random strangers in a small guild isn't social. Silly me, I thought social meant 'with other people.'