Wealth and Power

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:17 am

*laughing* Yeah, it'll be minorly amusing when that happens. But after that, it'll take something really special to make me want to post again.

Some might consider that a good thing, a lack of me posting.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:47 am

Several of these concepts could exist together in the same game world, depending on how common you want magic to be.

For example, I can see a low-magic campaign where both Eliminate The Magic Mart and Barter co-exist. Assuming that the world uses the old 2e idea that magic items are a pain in the ass to make and therefore priceless (at least in terms of regular money), it makes sense that nobody would be running Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. But it also makes sense that characters in such a setting would barter one "priceless" magic item for another if two characters each have a magic item that is more valuable to the other.

Now, for a more standard high-magic D&D 3e+-type game, I like the idea of Non-Convertible Currency. It allows players to use something like the standard fantasy money-system they're used to, while divorcing standard wealth from character effectiveness. It also fits into a world where magic items are a pain in the ass to make (at least for the average mortal).

In fact, if you just adopt a 2e viewpoint on magic item creation, you could use Non-Convertible Currency as the default method for buying magic items and allow other methods (like Will of the Sultan and Raw Power) as options depending on the flavor the GM wants for the campaign. And of course, the GM would always have the option of running a low-magic campaign by eliminating all ways of buying magic items and force the PCs to find or barter for them.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:49 am

CatharzGodfoot wrote:No. You always want a +2 sword more than a +1 sword, no matter how easy it is to trade for either. That's just about as simple as it can get.

And I always want one of the really huge mining trucks more than a car. The mining truck is of no use to me at all but can be sold for enough money to buy a car, house and then retire.

The only way that a car would be better than the mining truck for me is if I was unable to trade the mining truck for something useful to me.

This is basic economics here. Are you really disputing that $20 can buy many peanuts?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:45 pm

Draco_Argentum wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote: This is basic economics here. Are you really disputing that $20 can buy many peanuts?
$20 may or may not buy any peanuts, but $21 is always going to be better than $20.

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:12 pm

[/quote]

Draco_Argentum wrote:And I always want one of the really huge mining trucks more than a car. The mining truck is of no use to me at all but can be sold for enough money to buy a car, house and then retire.

You can sell it in an economy similar to ours. How exactly do you sell your mining truck in a medieval barter economy?

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:31 pm

How do you sell a mining truck in a medieval system? Well, there is the direct way and the indirect way.

Direct Way: Travel to the dwarves, ask for one of those thin-forged magic drow rapiers that the dwarves have no use for. Offer the mining truck and a small Astral Diamond in exchange. They use those mining trucks all the time and there is a shortage of small Astral Diamonds because of the recent war on the Astral Plane, or whatever.

Indirect Way: Find a dwarf, ask him if he has a second cousin, or brother's nieces nephew that is interested in getting into the mining business for dirt cheap. Offer the mining truck in exchange for a dwarven adamantine greataxe (of which they always seem to have a surplus of anyways). Trade the Adamantine Greataxe for a magic rapier. Done.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:14 pm

Why could I see a Dwarven community with an umbrella stand full of Drow Rapiers at the front gate with a sign saying "free"?

K · Post by K » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:42 am

The most fun I've had with money in DnD was when I had to figure out things to do with it. I've seen PCs buy inns, armies, castles, or just promote their legend by throwing parties, and every time it was awesome. Dumping a portable hole on the ground to buy a magic sword just seems lame.

I mean, figuring out what to do with wealth is about figuring out how power acts in your setting.

If we follow the assumption that power is level-based, then it doesn't matter if you just have giant piles of gold in dragon lairs so big you can swim in it. By this reasoning, you can't hire an army because people won't follow your orders or they'll take your wealth if you aren't powerful enough to protect it.

The wrong way to go is to assume a modern economy. I mean, just because you have a handful of gems doesn't mean that anyone in the city is willing to trade you a pile of gold for them (imagine trying to sell an old computer, but without craigslist). By the same token, some person might trade a magic item for pile of gold because classy prostitutes only take gold, but the alchemist won't sell you his entire stock of healing potions because he needs to keep some around in case his other customers need one.

I think another important design principle has to be that you don't need to do anything to get the magic items you need. Plus items have to go, just so that players don't complain that they haven't found an appropriate kukri just yet for their level, and at no point do I want to "catch 'em all" just to do the adventures I actually care about.

Anything that you need for your character concept has to be rolled into your class features (the Guy with the Sword of his Father starts the game with the sword, and he doesn't have to go around questing for stuff to make it more powerful).

Magic item creation has to be something you do to make things much weaker than yourself. I mean, at the the time you make Helms of Teleportation you should be able to cast Gates that move whole armies. That way, when you find new items with powers comparable to your own level, you snatch them up, but when you take down the Serpent Cult you don't loot them for their Serpent Daggers because its weak crap you could make any time.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:51 am

Frank wrote:- Bank Notes We just accept that a +2 Sword costs 167 pounds of gold. And then... we keep the gold in big keeps and we conduct our actual trade with checks. We trade the ownership of giant piles of gold which are kept in vaults back and forth. And then the currency of the powerful is measured in little pieces of velum and we still get to loot orcish treasuries with Santa Sacks and fill wagons with the hoards of mighty dragons.

This is in no way a medieval barter economy yet it is one of the presented options. While thats on the table being able to trade lots of weak items for one good one is a possibility.

Catharz, stop being obtuse on purpose. Some things are worth more than others in a modern economy. Or would you honestly choose a sedan over a mining truck if given the choice just because you have no personal use for a mining truck?

Murtak · Post by **Murtak** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:59 am

Draco_Argentum wrote:Catharz, stop being obtuse on purpose. Some things are worth more than others in a modern economy. Or would you honestly choose a sedan over a mining truck if given the choice just because you have no personal use for a mining truck?

I thought his point was all about non-modern economies.

Although you have the same issues in a modern economy, just less often. For example no one will sell anything essential (like his last food) unless he is sure to be able to get a replacement easily. No, not even for a mining truck.

It seems to me like you are assuming an "ideal market", a capitalist's dream come true so to speak, where every price is determined by supply and demand and where prices may be constantly changing but are fixed at any one point in time.

And on the other hand there is the ideal barter economy where no one will trade anything unless he is making a profit right now.

Obviously any real economy will lie somewhere in between those points. And that means there will be real examples of someone choosing the sedan over the mining truck.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:49 am

Draco_Argentum wrote:
Frank wrote:- Bank Notes We just accept that a +2 Sword costs 167 pounds of gold. And then... we keep the gold in big keeps and we conduct our actual trade with checks. We trade the ownership of giant piles of gold which are kept in vaults back and forth. And then the currency of the powerful is measured in little pieces of velum and we still get to loot orcish treasuries with Santa Sacks and fill wagons with the hoards of mighty dragons.
This is in no way a medieval barter economy yet it is one of the presented options. While thats on the table being able to trade lots of weak items for one good one is a possibility.

It sounds like the problem is that Catharz is talking about an exclusively barter economy for magic items, while you're talking about a mixed-bag economy with both barter and a coinage system. While not all the listed options are mutually exclusive, I think it's a given that barter can't exist in conjunction with any system of coinage, checks, letters of marque, or whatever.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:13 am

Murtak wrote:It seems to me like you are assuming an "ideal market", a capitalist's dream come true so to speak, where every price is determined by supply and demand and where prices may be constantly changing but are fixed at any one point in time.

Actually I'm assuming and then complaining about the sort of economy that existed last century. Large gold reserves backing coin\paper currency. Its one of the options and I don't like it.

BTW, even in an imperfect capitalist economy like ours you'd need to be quite desperate to trade a $5 million truck for a sedan.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:43 pm

In one of the books that I was reading a while ago, the coinage system was originally built on favors. You see, the magic was leaving everything and everyone had a finite supply of mana (quasi-similar to what we are planning with various magic sources). Mana could be extracted from locations where it was typically difficult to get to (high in the mountains). However, raw gold possessed an extraordinary supply of mana. Bare with me, I'm getting to it.

People who possessed raw gold would go and give it to a wizard, who would extract the mana (standard use for mana is prolonging one's life), and then give the gold back to the person. In this manner, possessing a lump of refined gold was a symbolic of a wizard owing you a favor. The more gold you possessed, the larger the favor owed, obviously. You could then go and trade a part of your gold to a farmer for food, who would spend it with a wizard when there was a dry spell.

In this manner, we had several types of economic systems in play: the barter system of "gold for power", the monetary system of "I will trade you these coins for 3 dinners", and the favor system of "a wizard must do a task for a person that has gold".

That being said, I like the "astral diamond" style of play where currency have a direct conversion to power. This power can be traded for favors, or used symbolically as currency. Considering the was that the setting thread is going, wizards/clerics/whatever can tie up excess magic wells in the creation of currency. Inflation/Deflation are not an issue because currency is tied directly to the power to do things:

Maybe something like this, where currency can be used in the following manners:
- You may spend X currency to create a magic item (or upgrade an existing one), or double that number if you cannot cast the requisite spell.
- If you have Y number of currency in the same place, you can do the following actions at no cost (this will almost scale with level automatically): Create an extraplanar space (1 cubic foot per 100 currency?), Cast a low-level spell (2000 currency = a cantrip, 4000 a level 1 spell, 8000 a level 2 spell?), Teleport (costs a flat number of currency).
- If you have Z number of currency, you can spend it to do something awesome (enough magic in one place gets dangerous).

Under the above system, people have a legitimate reason to accumulate an amount of wealth because it has a direct correlation to making their lives easier. Also, adventurers can create their own currency in the same manner as they normally do (though getting akeep in desirable territory and mining it). Dragons like shiny things, so collect gold that has been drained of magic power. The gold is no longer a treasure, but the supply of power can transform itself directly into "now my sword does fire damage!", and eliminates the magic mart as a side effect (generally, unless people get weapons from other people who have died, weapons do exactly what people want them to). As another side effect, I like the idea of adventurers keeping 20000 power points tied up in 'investment currency' for the event that they need a flying carpet (which they can create with minimal time), or for extradimensional space to store other forms of loot.

MagnaSecuris · Post by **MagnaSecuris** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:32 pm

SunTzuWarmaster wrote: Under the above system, people have a legitimate reason to accumulate an amount of wealth because it has a direct correlation to making their lives easier. Also, adventurers can create their own currency in the same manner as they normally do (though getting akeep in desirable territory and mining it). Dragons like shiny things, so collect gold that has been drained of magic power. The gold is no longer a treasure, but the supply of power can transform itself directly into "now my sword does fire damage!", and eliminates the magic mart as a side effect (generally, unless people get weapons from other people who have died, weapons do exactly what people want them to). As another side effect, I like the idea of adventurers keeping 20000 power points tied up in 'investment currency' for the event that they need a flying carpet (which they can create with minimal time), or for extradimensional space to store other forms of loot.

Do you intend to have magically charged gold glow, or will half the 'currency' in circulation actually be worthless? Thus having Bob the dirt farmer be screwed when the local wizard won't accept the gold he's been getting for his turnips?

I'm not sure I like this either way.
---

Also, on the issue of metagame inflation, I think the problem is partly the low conversion values. If we set it to 100 coppers to the silver, and 100 silvers to the gold, then finding gold pieces would be like finding 100 dollar bills, and then players would expect that even custom, masterwork, highly-specialized adventurer's tool should cost less than 20gp.

Most people in the world would live on 1-5 sp a day.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:47 pm

Seriously, I like thinking of economics on the global level instead of the party-management level. I know that the dwarves trade ale for wine with the elves and adamantine for silver with the hobgoblins. Whatver.

Also, using the original system, the majority of currency in circulation is worthless (it gets refined by the wizard before changing hands typically).

However, no, I am not implying a direct conversion of that system. The paragraph that begins with "That being said" starts the basis of an idea for a currency system. The idea is that you have some form of currency that is essentially weightless, although you could tie it to some sort of feature, or give it distinguishing qualities. I like having it glow for flat-out utility, but you could add other effects for kicks. For example, you can tell Astral Currency from normal every-day items because it:
Glows in the dark (but not in the light)
Emits a high-pitched sound to those who can hear it
Throws off an extradimensional aura (octarine) to Detect Magic spells
Weighs 80% less than it should
Slides unusually quickly across surfaces
Glimmers faint green when it catches the light at a 85 degree angle

(and, of course, an amount can be tested with the cantrips or spells or extradimensional space shown above).

Of course, you could have all of the above regulated into real paper currency in the following manner: the king collected all magic currency in the land and is using it for defense of the town (providing archers with unlimited Magic Missile spells or whatever), you may reclaim your part, if you are leaving town, with a slip of paper.

Just things to think about, but I have always enjoyed a system where currency had a very real conversion into power.

Jacob_Orlove · Post by **Jacob_Orlove** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:52 am

Keep it simple: if you can bite into a gold coin and leave a mark, it's the good stuff.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:59 am

Really, so we aren't putting it on a scale against a known quantity and then dunking it in water and watching the water level rise? That was figured by Archimedes, so it was well in use by any time period you're likely to set a game in.

Actually having a water dunking ritual to determine the purity of gold could be a whole wealth thing, where players could genuinely go "Holy shit, that's like nearly pure gold..."

-Username17

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:37 pm

I like the water dunking thing.

It makes using coins less neccessary. Since people will 'test' your gold pieces wether they're coins, rods or thimbles.

We should also get rid of coins, lets go back to the golden puppies, tokens and jumping jacks that the Dungeonomicon talked about.

I personally liked the idea that a gold 'piece' weighed as much as 9 pennies and that it wasn't a 'coin' per se.

I even made quite a few "gold pieces" by stacking 9 pennies in a stack and then putting some scotch tape around the edges; okay, I lied, I made like 25 such 'coins'.

When I showed the players what "15 Gold" meant, they realized just how valuable a longsword was.

It's one thing to know that it weighs 135 grams (roughly 1/4 pound); it's an other to hold the weight and realize that you gave up that much gold to get a longsword.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:26 am

Ever since reading Dungeonomicon, I've been using gold monopoly pieces. Seriously. A wheelbarrow, a hat, a dog... one person even hit a gold dog against a table to knock the head off for a smaller payment.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:13 am

For your Deflate Currency option, are you suggesting that you keep all of the prices the same in terms of value, but just reduce the price of masterwork and magic items to 100th of their original value?

I just realized something when I saw the Approved By the Sultan option. Are we still going to have wish in this game, and if so, what will it be capable of?