TNE: The Feeling of Epic, Take 2

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Hey. I’ve been thinking about epic battles and how to represent them in Rpg’s. I’ve come up with some ideas that can hopefully be mined for TNE. This is a continuation of the original thread here: http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33725&start=0

Additionally, this post also fits closely with another thread I started about artisans here: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48432

My goal for this system is to represent a gameworld which functions and can support relatively stable societies. In this system, insanely powerful individuals still care about commoners and low level armies. Standing armies are critical to the balance of power, and they stabilize the gameworld.

This isn’t a final version, the numbers are mostly conceptual, and there are some areas I am uncertain about.
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Basic Epic Assumptions:
-You want an epic round to last 1 hour.
-TNE will be: 1-20 nonepic, 20-30 epic.
--You want a large power gap going into Epic. The difference in power between levels 20 to 21 are proportionally larger than lvls 19 to 20.

Fundamental Epic Rules:
-Epic characters (Epics) have access to all the abilities they had as Nonepic characters (Nonepics).
-Both characters and monsters can become Epics.
-Epics can use an Epic Talent 1/hour if they enter into Epic Stance (ES).
-Epics only get 1 turn in ES.
-Epics can choose to enter into ES before they are affected by any ability if they are uninjured.
--If injured, it is a free action.
--Vs the first nonepic attack in ES, an Epic has an infinite ER.
-Epics are immune to all abilities of lower level creatures (Epic Resistance, ER) while in ES with the following exception:
--1/hour a nonepic (or lower level Epic) has a chance to break through an Epics ER.
--ER has a level scaling mechanic like D&D spell resistance, which indicates whether a nonepic character can affect an epic character. The base bonus to determine whether you break through ER is your character level.
--Armies provide bonuses to overcome ER, and can block other armies bonuses to overcome ER.


ER table:
Roll to determine if an ability breaches ER: 1d20+ character level.
ER = Level +10.
Example: lvl 1-10 has no chance. Lvl 11 has 5% chance of breaching a Lvl 21 ER, and a lvl 20 has a 50/50 chance. A lvl 25 Epic has a 50/50 shot of breaching the ER of a lvl 26 Epic, etc.
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Epic Stance benefits:

Epic Movement: Since a round in an epic battle takes an hour, movement is on a much larger scale. Epics fight each other by running across mountaintops, exchanging blows along the way. However, masses of attacks take a toll on the Epics ES, and the Epic must reduce his mobility to compensate and keep his defenses up. Large armies slow down an Epics speed drastically. (Think of the movie Hero)
Epic Talent: These are the epic versions of attacks and special abilities. Epic AoE’s should be designed to be relevant, yet ensure that armies last a significant amount of time to support their heroes.

A nonepics base speed, to keep up while fighting an Epic in ES, is ¼ mile (per hour).
An Epics base speed is 25 miles (per hour).
Effects: If army is too small, the Epic can just run away if he is injured. Nonepics can also use abilities to slow down the Epic, if they breach his ER.

Epic Rejuvenation: An epic has limited form of Immortality. If an Epic dies, and the killing blow is not directly caused by another Epic, they come back to life.
Implications: Kingdoms will court and hire out Epics to fight other epics, because that is the only way to ensure that the Epic won’t come back to life and later harass their kingdom. Also, Epic heads of state will be loathe to attack each other, making society more stable.

-The time before rejuvenation occurs is dependant upon the level difference between the Epic and the Enemy’s ER check.
--Shorter time if Epic is killed by low level nonepics.
--Longer time if Epic is killed by nonepics with a high ER bonus.
---If nonepics ER bonus is higher than Epics level, time will be extremely long.
----This has following implications: Long dead Epics periodically come back to life. There are histories, prophecies, forgotten Rejuvenating epics, standing armies in waiting, etc.
--Divinations are helpful but not full-proof when predicting where an Epic will be reborn.

Check compared to ER:
Time to Rejuvenation: Epics Movement
20 to 16 less than ER: 1 day 25 miles
15 to 11 less than ER: 1 week 10 miles
10 to 6 less than ER: 1 month 1 mile
5 to 1 less than ER: 6 months 1/2 mile
Bonus = ER: 1 year 1/4 mile
1 to 5 higher than ER: 10 years 1/8 mile
6 to 10 higher than ER: 50 years 1/8 mile
11 to 15 higher than ER: 100 years 1/8 mile
16 to 20 higher than ER: 500 years 1/8 mile
20+ higher than ER: Variable. Minimum 1,000 years. 1/8 mile

Formula: subject to change dependant upon tastes.
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Epic characters vs. Epic characters:
-When battling each other, epic characters will almost always go into their ES. The following are reasons why:
--Epics automatically become immune (or resistant) to all nonepic attacks. This is especially important when Epics are in a situation where one or more sides has an army.
--It is protection against any nonepics that might enter the fight later.
--It is a protection against an Epic being critically wounded by another Epic and then being finished off by a nonepic (or supernatural whether, terrain, etc.) This is important because Epic Rejuvenation wouldn’t kick in.

Since Epic Rejuvenation doesn’t kick in if an Epic is killed by another Epic, most are hesitant to get into fights with each other. As such the status quo of powerful Epic leaders is quite stable. Nations are not overrun and ruled by powerful Epics one immediately after another. As such, the most common battles are those between an Epic vs. some powerful nonepics (lvls ~15-19) and their armies. Since Epics don’t want to die, even temporarily, they will invest in their own armies to stop enemy armies from reaching them.

Epic characters interacting with nonepic characters:
-When battling nonepic characters, Epics will go into ES if they ever feel threatened by an attack, or a potential attack in the near future.

Mop up: If an Epic is exterminating insignificant nonepics, (perhaps after defeating an enemy Epic, yet the enemy Epic’s army is still alive) they can (and have to) drop out of ES and use their best nonepic abilities to finish up. An Epic Talent takes an hour to execute, and the enemy army will have time to disperse. There is no risk to the Epic, because he can always go into ES if he would be hit with any nonepic attack that could possibly kill him (if he is uninjured).

Nonepics interacting with nonepics:
-standard game.

Nonepic characters interacting with Epic characters:
-An Epics ES makes nonepic attacks mostly irrelevant. When nonepics battle Epics, the fight lasts a long time. The reason is that nonepics only have a chance of breaching the ER 1/hour, and Epics can only use an Epic Talent 1/hour.
-Groups of nonepics raise the bonus for overcoming ER. As such armies will be useful in defeating Epics. As a consequence, kingdoms and all powerful Epics will care about cultivating armies.

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ER and armies:

An army can either provide a bonus to breach ER, or negate an equal amount of an enemy army’s bonus to breach ER. An army’s level of training, equipment, and health all greatly influence how effective it is. Craftsmen, military training, and agriculture are all vitally important to an army.

Bonuses start applying to one creature fighting an Epic. Once a single creature has a 100% chance of breaching an Epics ER, bonuses go to another creature. For example, if a large group of level 17 characters and an army (which gives a +80 bonus) are fighting a lvl 21 Epic, 6 of the lvl 17 nonepics would have a 100% chance of breaching the Epics ER. The other lvl 17’s would have a poor chance, and therefore probably wouldn’t enter the battle immediately. They might only start to fight the Epic if some of the other lvl 17’s died and the army was still providing a bonus.
(Epic would have ER of 31, and lvl 17 nonepics have a base ER penetration chance of +17)

Other possibilities: There are two ways an army could provide their bonus. The army’s bonus could fluctuate every round, dependant upon losses taken and inflicted. Or the army’s bonus would remain in constant effect no matter the losses, as long as it remained unbroken and still in the fight.

Secondly, it might be better to have less granular rules for the bonuses. There could be definite levels of ER, sort of like Dnd’s cover/concealment rules. So there might be 4 levels of ER: 0%, 20%, 50%, and 100%. Also, the bonuses/penalties could be evenly distributed among the heroes.

In order to apply a bonus to overcome ER, a soldier in an army must meet one of the following conditions:
-Threaten and have line of effect to the Epic (Ranged or Melee)
-Have line of effect to a friendly unit who is threatening the Epic (ranged or Melee).

-If an Epic is killed, the enemy army’s ER check at the time of death is used to determine his Epic Rejuvenation time.
--Effect: Epics will be very wary of larger armies.

Numbers conceptual, can be altered dependant upon taste:
Base bonus: +1 per 100 soldiers. (minimum +1 starting bonus (for first 100 soldiers), and +1 per 200 soldiers thereafter.)

Army statistics: Equipment, Health, Training.

Example:
Equip levels:
-Unequipped: -1 per 100 soldiers.
-Militia equipped: +0 per 100 soldiers.
-Standard army equipment: +1 per 100 soldiers.
-Well equipped (Mithril, adamantine, etc.): +2 per 100 soldiers.

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ER and Fortresses:
In addition to denying enemy’s entrance into the secret chambers of an Epic, a fortress protects a defending army from attack. Wounded soldiers go inside the fortress to recover, while fresh troops cycle to the front lines on the parapets and crenellations. As a result, a fortress is the perfect long term defense against a siege.

The better the fortress, the less wounded the soldiers get, and the faster they can cycle back to the front lines. As a result, the troops effectively regenerate their lost numbers. Since this is the fortress of an Epic, troop regeneration rates are timed at 1 hour. The minimum troop regeneration can be is 0%, and the maximum is 90%. A particularly fantastic fortress might otherwise give more than a 90% bonus, but the only benefit this gives occurs when the fortress is damaged. For example, a fortress might grant a +110% regeneration bonus (but only benefits from 90%). However, enemy attackers would need to break through the first 20% to even touch the maximum 90% of the fortress.
Damaging the fortress causes it to benefit the soldiers less. Artisans and siege craftsmen can fix the fortress from the inside during the battle.

Size: A fortress must be large enough to properly allow defending troops access to ranged attacks to the enemy to receive the regeneration bonus.

Fortress statistics:
Building materials, Craftsmanship, Hostility of local terrain, Supernatural Defenses.

Example:
Building materials:
-Substandard (softwoods): -10% (to total if positive)
-Standard (hardwoods): +0% of troops are regenerated each hour.
-Good (stone): +10% of troops are regenerated each hour.
-Fantastic (magical materials): +20% of troops are regenerated each hour.

ER increases within the Epics domain. +10 or whatever which increases with better domains, possibly power sites.
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Epic Rejuvenations:
Once the listed time has passed after his death by nonepics, an Epic comes back to life. All Epics have the default option of coming back to life at the place at which they died. Few choose this option, because oftentimes armies will be waiting to kill them after they are reborn.
As an Epic gains levels, they gain access to better Rejuvenations. There are different paths, and different powers. Here is one example:

Necrotic Respawn (Rejuvenation): This option is almost always chosen by Necromancers and the like. The special power for this Rejuvenation is that corpses (up to 20 per your level) that are within 1,000 feet of the place of your death, are animated as zombies upon your rejuvenation.
Lvl:
21: Default.
22: Can Rejuvenate at any cemetery with 1,000 or more intact tombstones (and corpses). The number of corpses required in the rejuvenating cemetery lessens by 100 every level after 22nd (to a minimum of 100).
23: The zombies now animated have a smattering of intelligence.
24: Can Rejuvenate at any battlefield where 1,000 or people have died (and corpses remain).
25: The zombies grow wings and can now fly.
Etc.
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Some possible scenarios:

If a group of Epic characters gets a TPK by nonepics, they will all come back to life some time later. If the party lost a climatic battle vs. some badass nonepics and an army, they all might be reborn 100 years later. They would probably want retribution, and anything could have happened in that time. The offending nations could have another army to force the party into torpor again. Or the nation could have gone into decline and the party now needs to decide how to respond to the kingdoms descendants, who can’t protect themselves, and possibly have forgotten the party’s existence.

Other possible rules:

Any army has statistics just like a character does. An army has attributes, defenses, and wound thresholds. Party’s can use skill challenges, role-playing, combat, and other tactics to decrease an army’s stats before combat even begins. For example, a role playing or skill challenge might convince some enemy commanders to surrender. This would lower the army’s Charisma and Willpower defense. A party might take a night stealth mission on some siege engines, and this would lower the army’s Strength and Tenacity. A necromancer Epic might poison the enemy army’s water and rations before a battle. He then would target the army with Fortitude powers during the battle. Etc.
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Ok. That’s it. I think this represents a gameworld people would want to play in pretty well. Thoughts?

[Ice9]

Looks like it could work; I especially like the Rejuvination paths. A couple questions, though:

--Vs the first nonepic attack in ES, an Epic has an infinite ER.

A little clarification on this one - does that mean you need to exit and re-enter ES every time someone attacks you? If so, does that mean that once an Epic character is injured, their Epic stance basically stops working against multiple people? In that case, when two Epics battled, the first one wounded would die soon-after, because their foe could use non-Epic attacks to finish them off while they were still stuck with Epic actions.

Second, since you can enter and exit ES as a free action (even when wounded), the restriction on not doing non-epic actions in it seems meaningless - you could just exit the stance, perform the action, and re-enter the stance, all on your turn.

[zeruslord]

But then you end your epic action and start the hour-long count over.

edit: it looks like you drop to your regular ER after the first attack on you in ES

[RandomCasualty2]

Epic rejuvenation seems kind of pointless. If an epic character dies by a weaker character, he should stay dead, but it should be very difficult for the weak character to take him down.

Also, it begs the question of what happens if an epic character is killed by a force of nature, like getting dropped into a lava pit or having a cavern collapse on top of him.

[Prak]

Epic rejuvenation seems kind of pointless. If an epic character dies by a weaker character, he should stay dead, but it should be very difficult for the weak character to take him down.

Also, it begs the question of what happens if an epic character is killed by a force of nature, like getting dropped into a lava pit or having a cavern collapse on top of him.

actually, Epic Rejuvenation essentially makes the game Highlander, and if they fall into a pit of lava, they swim out, because anything more than 0 hp means you're good to go, and if they actually die, then they sink, rejuvenate, and try to swim out again, repeat until they're close enough to actually leave the lava. If a cavern collapses on them, then they just climb out, if they died, they rejuvenate with a bunch of rocks on them and climb out. It's like epic characters are wolverine. Sure, a bullet to the skull will take 'em out and everyone will think they're dead, but within a very short amount of time that epic will to live pushes the bullet out, heals the skin and they pop up ready to kill the bastard that shot them.

[zeruslord]

Epic Rejuvenation sets up things like the King Arthur deal, where the old High King will someday return and bring about a new Golden Age with game mechanics. Also, it really just sets a maximum timeframe for epic characters to reappear, since in a world with Raise Dead effects, they will be brought back at some point.
Do people get brought back to life in TNE without this system?

[Ice9]

On further inspection, I think I was misreading it - you always get your normal ER while in ES, and you also get an infinite ER (so, invincible) against the first attack, correct?


I guess the real question then is - what kinds of normal actions can you take without disrupting your Epic actions? Can you 5' step? Move? Teleport? Cast non-epic spells? It seems a little problematic either way, because:

A) If you can take other actions, then any non-Epic help you bring to an Epic fight is pretty pointless - the opposing Epic characters can be killing your minions while they take their Epic attacks - by the end of the first Epic round, any normals will be dead.

B) If you can't take other actions, then there a two problems. First, an Epic fight is extremely easy to escape, because the escapee can teleport and plane-shift around, and the pursuer loses their Epic action if they chase them. Or for that matter, the defender can just stay out of ES and enter it the moment their foe attacks them, gaining infinite ER against that attack.

Second, having non-Epic helpers becomes the decisive factor in an Epic battle. All you have to do is start your Epic attack one round after your opponent does, then have your minion teleport you away right before getting hit, and teleport you back just in time to land your own.


Also, there's the question of how ER works against effects that don't target you directly? A wall of stone might not hurt you, but it'll block your movement and line of sight. What does being immune to that actually mean? Are you immune to someone building a wall around you, then opening several Gates and burying you in lava? And if so, in what way?

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Thanks for the replies. I'll respond post by post:

Epic rejuvenation seems kind of pointless. If an epic character dies by a weaker character, he should stay dead...

That is a value judgement; some would agree, some wouldn't. If we assume that Resurrection magic exists, then it must be that way. In Dnd terms: If a gobbo shivs and kills an epic Paladin in his sleep, the Paladin should be raised without problem. If the Paladin fights a mighty Pit Fiend in a climatic battle, we would want the Paladin to suffer more grievously if he loses. Maybe the Paladins soul is trapped in the Pit Fiends sword on the killing blow.

We certainly don't want a situation where being killed by the gobbo is permanent, and where you are instantly resurrected when killed by high level foes like a Pit Fiend. This touches on the issue raised by K about small deaths and big deaths.

...but it should be very difficult for the weak character to take him down.

It is. It would probably require an army.

Also, it begs the question of what happens if an epic character is killed by a force of nature, like getting dropped into a lava pit or having a cavern collapse on top of him.

He get resurrected. Basically, any time an epic dies, and it is not caused by another epic, his rejuvenation kicks in. Praks post has some cool ideas/descriptions.
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Do people get brought back to life in TNE without this system?

I don't know.
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On further inspection, I think I was misreading it - you always get your normal ER while in ES, and you also get an infinite ER (so, invincible) against the first attack, correct?

Yes.

I guess the real question then is - what kinds of normal actions can you take without disrupting your Epic actions? Can you 5' step? Move? Teleport? Cast non-epic spells?

An Epic only gets 1 turn a round, during which they can use their Epic Talents. Their movement is on a large scale. They don't get normal actions.

B) If you can't take other actions, then there a two problems. First, an Epic fight is extremely easy to escape, because the escapee can teleport and plane-shift around, and the pursuer loses their Epic action if they chase them.

It’s important to remember that this isn’t Dnd, and abilities like teleporting or plane shifting haven’t been defined yet. I’m sure that whatever “flee” abilities are in TNE, there will be counters, like Dnd’s Dimensional Anchor or Solid Fog. Also, armies pin down an Epics movement.

Or for that matter, the defender can just stay out of ES and enter it the moment their foe attacks them, gaining infinite ER against that attack.

That is kinda the point. Epics will want to stay out of ES, because the first attack is nullified. In the army example, the Epic would have to go into ES to block the hundreds+ of attacks by the troops. The first attack by the enemy Epic would not be blocked by infinite ER.

Also, you can only get infinite ER vs. the first attack if you are uninjured. Epics wouldn’t risk waiting to put it up later in small scale fights because then they couldn’t activate it as an immediate action, and they could be killed before their turn comes up again.

Second, having non-Epic helpers becomes the decisive factor in an Epic battle. All you have to do is start your Epic attack one round after your opponent does, then have your minion teleport you away right before getting hit, and teleport you back just in time to land your own.

Teleport and its counters have yet to be defined in TNE. Off the top of my head, entering into ES could emit a dimensional anchor field like the Tome Monk.

Also, there's the question of how ER works against effects that don't target you directly? A wall of stone might not hurt you, but it'll block your movement and line of sight. What does being immune to that actually mean? Are you immune to someone building a wall around you, then opening several Gates and burying you in lava? And if so, in what way?

These examples are from Dnd, and I don’t know how I should address those problems in the framework of the unfinished TNE. Wall of Stone grants a reflex save to avoid entrapment. So the easiest way to envision it is that the Epic effectively always makes the save. Or the Wall effectively doesn’t exist for the Epic.

Like I said in the last paragraph of my original post, armies could be represented with attributes, defenses, and wound thresholds. If we continue with that idea, armies could also have maneuvers that hamper Epics. So, for example, an army might have a maneuver called “Labyrinth of Stone” where dozens or hundreds of casters target the Epic with Walls of Stone. Individually, they are ignored by the Epic, but when used as a maneuver by an army, it can have an effect. (Army maneuvers would be usable 1/hour as well). So if the Epic failed the save vs the army’s maneuver, we might describe: The Epic charges around, and through, the dozens of walls of the Stone Labyrinth with little effort, but it has slowed him somewhat. On the following round the Epic is Slowed (or whatever status condition).

[Ice9]

It’s important to remember that this isn’t Dnd, and abilities like teleporting or plane shifting haven’t been defined yet.

Fair enough, but it really applies to a wide range of abilties. If you (or your minions) can do anything with normal actions that requires an action to bypass, you can escape an Epic attack.

In the army example, the Epic would have to go into ES to block the hundreds+ of attacks by the troops. The first attack by the enemy Epic would not be blocked by infinite ER.

It works well enough if both sides have armies, but not for one-on-one duels. In fact, even if the attacker brings some minions, the defender can just spend their hour killing those minions so they can be safely out of ES on the round before the Epic attack goes off.

Also, you can only get infinite ER vs. the first attack if you are uninjured.

This should probably be clarified. What it looks like now is that you get always the infinite ER against the first attack, but you can't put it up reactively when injured.


I don't want to be too downbeat - this actually seems to be getting pretty close; it's just a thorny problem to solve.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Fair enough, but it really applies to a wide range of abilties. If you (or your minions) can do anything with normal actions that requires an action to bypass, you can escape an Epic attack.

True. This may or may not be a problem within the scales of battles. We don’t want the Epic to win every time. If there is a suitably large group of Nonepics, they might be able to breach the Epics ER and escape.

It works well enough if both sides have armies, but not for one-on-one duels. In fact, even if the attacker brings some minions, the defender can just spend their hour killing those minions so they can be safely out of ES on the round before the Epic attack goes off.

One of the conceits of the ES is to guard against masses of attacks by lower level people. If there aren’t enough people to pose a threat to the Epic, then the Epic doesn’t need to go into ES. (Although they would probably want to anyways.)

I used ambiguous language at this point, partly because I was revising stuff, and partly because I wasn’t sure what the rules should be. Originally the line: “--Vs the first nonepic attack in ES, an Epic has an infinite ER.” was intended to mean that the infinite ER only functions against people levels 1-20. There is no infinite ER vs the first Epic attack.

This should probably be clarified. What it looks like now is that you get always the infinite ER against the first attack, but you can't put it up reactively when injured.

Actually, that is exactly what I meant.

I don't want to be too downbeat - this actually seems to be getting pretty close; it's just a thorny problem to solve.

No problem. Hopefully enough people beat on it so that it can become a workable system.

[virgil]

Are you able to drop out of ES instantly when uninjured, having it flicker on and off with every nonepic attack (assuming you're uninjured) and possibly resetting the option for an Epic Action, or does it stay on for an hour once activated?

Wouldn't an army of nonepics be likely to kill an injured epic in ES as long as the level gap is less than 10? Each nonepic would get an attack 1/hour and make their check to penetrate, which adds up when you fight hundreds of soldiers.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Are you able to drop out of ES instantly when uninjured, having it flicker on and off with every nonepic attack (assuming you're uninjured) and possibly resetting the option for an Epic Action, or does it stay on for an hour once activated?

Add the following line: You can only initiate your ES 1/hour.

Wouldn't an army of nonepics be likely to kill an injured epic in ES as long as the level gap is less than 10? Each nonepic would get an attack 1/hour and make their check to penetrate, which adds up when you fight hundreds of soldiers.

That is a good question, it may be a problem. In TNE, your damage and damage resistance scale with your level. Higher level opponents might have more wound tracks, so it is difficult to injure higher level foes to begin with. We also want the army to win vs. the Epic some of the time. The number of troops that should be required to kill an Epic is still undecided. Should it be 10? 50? 100? 1,000? 10,000+?

There could possibly be Epic Talents which mitigate some number of attacks.

The easiest answer is just to create tables with level demographics for armies like Dnd does for cities. There might simply not be enough lvl 10+ people in the world to create multiple armies of hundreds of people. Also, since armies are in such high demand, high level troops can command a higher price, and therefore they are spread among different empires and armies.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

I should probably have asked this first...

Frank,

Do some of these epic ideas have merit, and can they be used in TNE? Should this thread continue, or should it just be left alone to fall off the first page?

[NoDot]

The thing is, I don't think those assumptions are ones we want to make for TNE.