Pokemon as D&D monsters

[Koumei]

Oh yeah, 5 HP, not 4. Still, I can see reason to bump the early damage down and the later damage up. Maybe if it's simply:

Lower Tier (1-10):
Weak: 1d3 per level (so ~3 needed to take out Charizard at level 1, and ~5 at level 10)
Normal: 1d4 per level (2+ needed to take out Charizard at level 1, and ~4 at level 10)
Strong: 1d6 per level (~2 but sometimes 1 to take out Charizard at level 1, and ~2-3 at level 10)
Uber: 1d8 per level (more likely to 1-shot Charizard at level 1, and ~2 at level 10)

Higher Tier (11-20):
Weak: 1d4 per level (~4 needed at 11, ~6 at level 20)
Normal: 1d6 per level (~3 needed at 11, ~4 at level 20)
Strong: 1d10 per level (~2 needed at level 11, ~3 at level 20)
Uber: 2d6 per level (~2 needed at level 11, ~2 at level 20)

How is that?

[Username17]

You want to do whatever you can to keep game resolution from taking longer and longer as characters grow in power, because among other things they will be getting a bigger and weirder squad to deal with at higher levels Seriously, a 15th level team is going to have like 6 different monsters, and they are all going to be Green Vices and Gyrados and shit.

So while rolling 3 dice and adding them is totally fine for a third level pidgey running up and delivering a peck to an enemy eevee, the fact remains that having a 19th level tiamat having to roll 19 dice to apply the results to the three different opponents who she can catch in her Dragon Dance is just way too much accounting.

You need some sort of accounting system that gets no more complex as monsters rise in level. Sure, player skill is going to rise somewhat as the game progresses, but any possible gains in speed you might hope to achieve is already locked in to be spent on having larger and more diverse teams on the field. You can't have the raw dice mechanics slow down as characters rise in level in this format.

-Username17

[Koumei]

In that case, I propose a new idea: you do it. It was your project to start with anyway.

[For Valor]

Why ian't it dx/level, like the example some pages back had? It looks nicer and has better granularity, IMO.

[rampaging-poet]

Hello everyone, I've lurked this board for quite some time, and I've finally decided to join. I probably won't post too much, but I'm interested in seeing this project finished and I'd like to help if I can.

Why ian't it dx/level, like the example some pages back had? It looks nicer and has better granularity, IMO.

I believe the reason dx/level isn't such a good idea is because of the sheer amount of counting that would be involved in each attack attack high levels. If there are four players, each of which have 6 tenth level Pokémon, you're counting up to 240dx each round before the other team even attacks, and that number is only going to get bigger. True, not every attack with every Pokémon will hit, but as levels increase and the number of opponents the party faces goes up, you'll be spending more time counting damage and less time doing anything interesting.

However, there is one way of doing something similar that I think could work. I know multiplication by arbitrary numbers has already been declared tedious, but rolling 1dx and multiplying the result by the attacker's level should produce the same average damage as rolling dx/level, but with less time spent counting dice. Unfortunately this means that players need a way to quickly compute 17 * 7, but if we keep the maximum die size reasonable there should be room on whatever we use for a character sheet to list pre-computed damage values.

Speaking of character sheets, a full sheet of paper for each Pokémon definitely doesn't make sense. Should we try and fit all relevant information on an index card or something? I know we've got a long way to go before we have to worry about that, but it might be a good to have an idea what to expect there.

[Quantumboost]

Aside from the full contents of their attacks, the stats of any individual Pokemon could be easily arranged on something about the size of an M:tG card. Each move can also have its own card, and you'd probably want those anyway so that you can "play" your prepared move for the round.

[schpeelah]

I'm pretty sure we can keep everything on cards. Powers are already going to be on cards, so the Pokemon's main card must contain only: Level, Leadership Cost, Typing, Attributes and Max HP. Maybe use use a bunch of tokens or something to represent either HP left or damage acquired? In the latter case, the attacker would just be counting the damage tokens then handing them to the one attacked, maybe that would help with damage calculation? For instance the 17*7 attack gives out 7 10-point tokens, then 7*7=49 4 more 10-point ones and 9 1-point ones.

[Maxus]

Is anyone else sort of amused that this project has moved to making Pokemon cards?

[Koumei]

I hate card games, and any game can be made better by not including cards.

The motion to include cards is hereby overruled.

[schpeelah]

Objection! Cards are already one of the core elements of the mechanics, since "Select Prepared Power Card and place it face down" is the first thing you do at the start of the round. You can't do this kind of simultaneous resolution we're going for without cards.

[Koumei]

...I thought people declared their Prepared actions (in order of Initiative).

[rampaging-poet]

The existence of Trap moves like Counter or Reflect imply that the special move be chosen in advance of knowing what the initiative count actually is. So the turn order appears to be:

• Select Card. It's face down, so any order would do.
• Roll Initiative.
• Characters move and declare special movement actions from lowest to highest.
• Characters declare facing from lowest to highest.
• Characters declare moves from their Card or their at-wills from highest initiative to lowest.
• Characters all take their Recovery Phase in whatever fucking order they want.

Emphasis mine. Giving everyone a sheet of paper to write their attacks on would work too, but re-usable cards with reference to the attacks are probably faster.

We don't have to use cards for the Pokémon themselves, giving each Pokémon a section on a larger character sheet or something instead. I just though index cards would be good because that would make it easier to have a whole bunch of pre-statted Pokémon on the sidelines and only take however many points' worth on an adventure.

Also, since each Pokémon of a given species could have entirely different moves known than another of the same species, we probably need to record attacks known on each Pokémon's card/sheet/magnet/whatever. It's technically possible to record moves known by just tying the cards together with an elastic band or something, but that's probably not an ideal solution and it doesn't handle at-wills unless they're also on cards for ease of reference.

As for using counters to track hit points, I'd leave that up to individual groups. I'd probably just give everyone a piece of paper and a pencil and print out a 10 by 20 multiplication table or two if we end up using dx*level for damage. The exact means by which damage is recorded really doesn't have much to do with the mechanics in this case. Even the use of index cards for Pokémon stats is just a suggestion, and if having a standard 8.5" by 11" sheet for their team or a spreadsheet on their laptop or something else entirely works better for someone then they'll just do that instead.

[DragonChild]

I hate card games, and any game can be made better by not including cards.

The motion to include cards is hereby overruled.

Hate to, but I have to disagree here, too. I've found players are far better able to keep track of tons of weird shit with cards. All they are is a way to keep things organized.

[Vebyast]

Another good reason to use cards: the weird attack areas are going to be really hard to deal with when they're rotated relative to how they're printed.

Imagine you have a weird attack range, vaguely cone-shaped, printed with the cone going to the north. Now imagine that you attack to the south. I can guarantee you that you're going to spin your sheet of paper 180 degrees to make it easier to figure out. Unless you want to be spinning around your entire character packet constantly (flip it to check range, flip back to check damage, flip back to check range, etc), you're going to need every attack range printed on its own piece of paper.

---

I think that this would work better as a roguelike or a computer RPG anyway. Crazy attack AoEs are easier when you have realtime overlays or similar; computers can do that a lot better than reality. Add in the fact that we want to be rolling 96d6 for attacks, and computers are an obvious solution.

[Koumei]

Fine. You can keep the cards. I hereby disassociate myself from the game, and you can do whatever the fuck you like with it.

[Vebyast]

...The cards are nothing but a handy way to keep track of information. They are no more part of the game than character sheets are part of DND.

[Koumei]

any game can be made better by not including cards.

My mind is made up. And when Gibbs makes his mind up Koumei makes her mind up, it is made up.

Blame Poker, Deadlands, WW:Street Fighter, Lunch Money, Munchkin!, Hearts/Bitch, Blackjack, Masters and Slaves and all those other stupid games people play in their lunch breaks.

[rampaging-poet]

Great. My first post ever, and it drives away the person who revived the thread. I'm sorry Koumei, come back!

The real problem at the moment isn't how to display information, so I really shouldn't have brought it up. What we need to do right now is decide on a general damage formula so that we have a starting point for statting up moves. Rolling a million dice is out, as are non-scaling damage ranks. Does anyone have a better idea than 1dx times level?

Also, Koumei mentioned something about stats increasing by one every level. Is this instead of or in addition to a +3 level bonus on attack and defence? I've run some numbers on dx/level (which should have the same mean as dx times level), but I used the +3 level bonus and a slightly different hit point formula, so I'll need to re-write it. Is there a good place I can post my spreadsheet for review when it's done?

[Username17]

Koumei is currently going on a binge of reactionary ranting. She was just in another thread ranting about how robots in D&D are always badwrong and have no place anywhere, despite the fact that she personally made a playable robot girl race.

Basically, my guess is that it has more to do with codeine than actually hating everyone's ideas.

-Username17

[Koumei]

I seriously do hate card games, and implementing them in normal games has always left a bad taste in my mouth. Like bad reflux, you know, that really acidic, bitter taste that is presumably your own sick?

And I seriously do hate the robots. They're too sci-fi for my tolerance (note: in an actual sci-fi thing I welcome them en masse, but I don't like most sci-fi so...) and in D&D they are always played as one of the three:

[*]I'm not a puppet, I'm a REAL boy!
[*]We're better than you, meatbag. We're made perfect.
[*]I am a tool, I was made to kill. Killing is my job. Killy kill kill.

despite the fact that she personally made a playable robot girl race.

Only because:

1. Someone wanted one as an Item and the point of Robot Girl animu is "They are human beings" (with less of the "I'm a REAL b-girl" drama and more of the "learn to love your computer. Also, boobies")
2. If someone just has to play a fucking robot, then after you apply the figure-4 leglock and they apologise, you can get them to play that instead. At least it will encourage them to play a silly robo-ditz.

Basically, my guess is that it has more to do with codeine than actually hating everyone's ideas.

Sort of: I'm out of codeine. I was miserable when certain plans fell through, I took my reserves of codeine, I was happy all night, I then had one dose left the next day for cramps (and to more slowly come down rather than crash), now a few days later I'm miserable again.

I really need to catch cancer so I can get endless scripts for oxy. I'd be so pleasant to be around and converse with.

And seriously, you are better at game design and have all the ideas, you can come up with what to do for damage. Indeed I'm all too happy to give you the whole project back, and go and work on GAR and drawing porn.

[rampaging-poet]

So I've got my spreadsheet up and running again based on the following assumptions:

• All stats increase by 1 per level.
• There is no special bonus for being higher level than your opponent.
• Hit Points follow Koumei's formula (1 + Bigness/Level/Level)
• The attacker rolls 1d20 + Attack Stat and hits if he rolls higher than 10 + Defence Stat.
• Damage is listed as dx per level (or dx * level, same expected value)

Some preliminary investigation reveals a few interesting points. At low levels, the difference in level between two Pokémon is the only real deciding factor. If they're otherwise evenly matched, a level 2 Pokémon seriously kills a level 1 Pokémon an average of four or more times over before before the level 1 Pokémon can take it down. After that a one-level difference isn't quite so bad, but you'll still have trouble taking down a higher-level Pokémon unless you have a hefty base stat advantage. Below level 5, a high base Bigness practically makes you untouchable in single combat. A one-point Bigness advantage is actually worth slightly more than a two-point Attack Stat advantage until somewhere between levels 5 and 7, depending on the actual numbers involved (i.e. a 2-1 advantage is better than a 3-2 advantage).

From around level 10, a total advantage of 4 stat points spread throughout Bigness, the relevant Attack Stat, and the relevant Defence Stat is a little bit more valuable than a level. Assuming equal damage dice for both Pokémon, Bigness remains slightly more valuable than Attack and Defence, but not much more valuable.

Starting at level 7, being two damage dice ahead more than makes up for being one level behind all on its own. Every damage die ahead appears to be worth about two points in the other areas, and a high damage die rather intuitively increase the value of both your attack and your opponent's defence.

Overall, at low levels you really want to focus fire on tougher opponents before they squash you, while at mid to high levels a Pokémon with good stats (or type advantage, which I haven't considered yet) stands a fair chance of taking down a slightly higher-level opponent in a one-on-one duel. Of course, in practice large teams and crazy areas of effect will make that situation rather unlikely, but it's good to know that a level 15 Charizard isn't guarnateed to lose to a level 17 Metapod or something on the level difference alone. Now a level 1 Charizard against a level 2 Metapod, on the other hand...

Does this sound alright so far? Any immediately glaring issues? Are there any particular examples people would like me to test?

EDIT: Ran some more numbers and didn't want to double post.

I took a quick stab at figuring out when higher damage dice should come online. I know one of the design goals was to ensure higher level Pokémon are harder to take down, and to make sure that works between evenly matched Pokémon (i.e. same level, 50% chance to hit) we can't hand out increased damage dice more often than every fifth level or so. If we scale any faster then Pokémon with a high base Bigness actually become slightly easier for an evenly matched Pokémon to take down as both Pokémon increase in level. I still need to check how this interacts with higher attack and/or defence values, but I have to head off to class in a few minutes so I'll try that later.

[Quantumboost]

For the record, I'm reworking the movelists via some analysis programs to have less optioxplosion on 3-move lists and less long stretches of no new stuff. Should have basic tier assignments finalized within a week.

[rampaging-poet]

Excellent. I'll wait for those before trying to actually stat out any moves. In the mean time, I've done up a few tables with the average number of attacks for evenly matched Pokémon to take each other out a various levels, Bignesses, and damage dice. If anyone doesn't like these numbers for whatever reason, feel free to suggest an alternative.

Bigness 0:

Level	1d3	1d4	1d6	1d8	1d10	1d12	2d6	2d8
1	2	1.6	1.14	0.89	0.73	0.62	0.57	0.44
2	2	1.6	1.14	0.89	0.73	0.62	0.57	0.44
3	2.33	1.87	1.33	1.04	0.85	0.72	0.67	0.52
4	2.75	2.2	1.57	1.22	1	0.85	0.79	0.61
5	3.2	2.56	1.83	1.42	1.16	0.98	0.91	0.71
6	3.67	2.93	2.1	1.63	1.33	1.13	1.05	0.81
7	4.14	3.31	2.37	1.84	1.51	1.27	1.18	0.92
8	4.63	3.7	2.64	2.06	1.68	1.42	1.32	1.03
9	5.11	4.09	2.92	2.27	1.86	1.57	1.46	1.14
10	5.6	4.48	3.2	2.49	2.04	1.72	1.6	1.24
11	6.09	4.87	3.48	2.71	2.21	1.87	1.74	1.35
12	6.58	5.27	3.76	2.93	2.39	2.03	1.88	1.46
13	7.08	5.66	4.04	3.15	2.57	2.18	2.02	1.57
14	7.57	6.06	4.33	3.37	2.75	2.33	2.16	1.68
15	8.07	6.45	4.61	3.59	2.93	2.48	2.3	1.79
16	8.56	6.85	4.89	3.81	3.11	2.63	2.45	1.9
17	9.06	7.25	5.18	4.03	3.29	2.79	2.59	2.01
18	9.56	7.64	5.46	4.25	3.47	2.94	2.73	2.12
19	10.05	8.04	5.74	4.47	3.66	3.09	2.87	2.23
20	10.55	8.44	6.03	4.69	3.84	3.25	3.01	2.34

Bigness 1:

Level	1d3	1d4	1d6	1d8	1d10	1d12	2d6	2d8
1	3	2.4	1.71	1.33	1.09	0.92	0.86	0.67
2	3	2.4	1.71	1.33	1.09	0.92	0.86	0.67
3	3.33	2.67	1.9	1.48	1.21	1.03	0.95	0.74
4	3.75	3	2.14	1.67	1.36	1.15	1.07	0.83
5	4.2	3.36	2.4	1.87	1.53	1.29	1.2	0.93
6	4.67	3.73	2.67	2.07	1.7	1.44	1.33	1.04
7	5.14	4.11	2.94	2.29	1.87	1.58	1.47	1.14
8	5.63	4.5	3.21	2.5	2.05	1.73	1.61	1.25
9	6.11	4.89	3.49	2.72	2.22	1.88	1.75	1.36
10	6.6	5.28	3.77	2.93	2.4	2.03	1.89	1.47
11	7.09	5.67	4.05	3.15	2.58	2.18	2.03	1.58
12	7.58	6.07	4.33	3.37	2.76	2.33	2.17	1.69
13	8.08	6.46	4.62	3.59	2.94	2.49	2.31	1.79
14	8.57	6.86	4.9	3.81	3.12	2.64	2.45	1.9
15	9.07	7.25	5.18	4.03	3.3	2.79	2.59	2.01
16	9.56	7.65	5.46	4.25	3.48	2.94	2.73	2.13
17	10.06	8.05	5.75	4.47	3.66	3.1	2.87	2.24
18	10.56	8.44	6.03	4.69	3.84	3.25	3.02	2.35
19	11.05	8.84	6.32	4.91	4.02	3.4	3.16	2.46
20	11.55	9.24	6.6	5.13	4.2	3.55	3.3	2.57

Bigness 2:

Level	1d3	1d4	1d6	1d8	1d10	1d12	2d6	2d8
1	4	3.2	2.29	1.78	1.45	1.23	1.14	0.89
2	4	3.2	2.29	1.78	1.45	1.23	1.14	0.89
3	4.33	3.47	2.48	1.93	1.58	1.33	1.24	0.96
4	4.75	3.8	2.71	2.11	1.73	1.46	1.36	1.06
5	5.2	4.16	2.97	2.31	1.89	1.6	1.49	1.16
6	5.67	4.53	3.24	2.52	2.06	1.74	1.62	1.26
7	6.14	4.91	3.51	2.73	2.23	1.89	1.76	1.37
8	6.63	5.3	3.79	2.94	2.41	2.04	1.89	1.47
9	7.11	5.69	4.06	3.16	2.59	2.19	2.03	1.58
10	7.6	6.08	4.34	3.38	2.76	2.34	2.17	1.69
11	8.09	6.47	4.62	3.6	2.94	2.49	2.31	1.8
12	8.58	6.87	4.9	3.81	3.12	2.64	2.45	1.91
13	9.08	7.26	5.19	4.03	3.3	2.79	2.59	2.02
14	9.57	7.66	5.47	4.25	3.48	2.95	2.73	2.13
15	10.07	8.05	5.75	4.47	3.66	3.1	2.88	2.24
16	10.56	8.45	6.04	4.69	3.84	3.25	3.02	2.35
17	11.06	8.85	6.32	4.92	4.02	3.4	3.16	2.46
18	11.56	9.24	6.6	5.14	4.2	3.56	3.3	2.57
19	12.05	9.64	6.89	5.36	4.38	3.71	3.44	2.68
20	12.55	10.04	7.17	5.58	4.56	3.86	3.59	2.79

Bigness 3:

Level	1d3	1d4	1d6	1d8	1d10	1d12	2d6	2d8
1	5	4	2.86	2.22	1.82	1.54	1.43	1.11
2	5	4	2.86	2.22	1.82	1.54	1.43	1.11
3	5.33	4.27	3.05	2.37	1.94	1.64	1.52	1.19
4	5.75	4.6	3.29	2.56	2.09	1.77	1.64	1.28
5	6.2	4.96	3.54	2.76	2.25	1.91	1.77	1.38
6	6.67	5.33	3.81	2.96	2.42	2.05	1.9	1.48
7	7.14	5.71	4.08	3.17	2.6	2.2	2.04	1.59
8	7.63	6.1	4.36	3.39	2.77	2.35	2.18	1.69
9	8.11	6.49	4.63	3.6	2.95	2.5	2.32	1.8
10	8.6	6.88	4.91	3.82	3.13	2.65	2.46	1.91
11	9.09	7.27	5.19	4.04	3.31	2.8	2.6	2.02
12	9.58	7.67	5.48	4.26	3.48	2.95	2.74	2.13
13	10.08	8.06	5.76	4.48	3.66	3.1	2.88	2.24
14	10.57	8.46	6.04	4.7	3.84	3.25	3.02	2.35
15	11.07	8.85	6.32	4.92	4.02	3.41	3.16	2.46
16	11.56	9.25	6.61	5.14	4.2	3.56	3.3	2.57
17	12.06	9.65	6.89	5.36	4.39	3.71	3.45	2.68
18	12.56	10.04	7.17	5.58	4.57	3.86	3.59	2.79
19	13.05	10.44	7.46	5.8	4.75	4.02	3.73	2.9
20	13.55	10.84	7.74	6.02	4.93	4.17	3.87	3.01

Bigness 4:

Level	1d3	1d4	1d6	1d8	1d10	1d12	2d6	2d8
1	6	4.8	3.43	2.67	2.18	1.85	1.71	1.33
2	6	4.8	3.43	2.67	2.18	1.85	1.71	1.33
3	6.33	5.07	3.62	2.81	2.3	1.95	1.81	1.41
4	6.75	5.4	3.86	3	2.45	2.08	1.93	1.5
5	7.2	5.76	4.11	3.2	2.62	2.22	2.06	1.6
6	7.67	6.13	4.38	3.41	2.79	2.36	2.19	1.7
7	8.14	6.51	4.65	3.62	2.96	2.51	2.33	1.81
8	8.63	6.9	4.93	3.83	3.14	2.65	2.46	1.92
9	9.11	7.29	5.21	4.05	3.31	2.8	2.6	2.02
10	9.6	7.68	5.49	4.27	3.49	2.95	2.74	2.13
11	10.09	8.07	5.77	4.48	3.67	3.1	2.88	2.24
12	10.58	8.47	6.05	4.7	3.85	3.26	3.02	2.35
13	11.08	8.86	6.33	4.92	4.03	3.41	3.16	2.46
14	11.57	9.26	6.61	5.14	4.21	3.56	3.31	2.57
15	12.07	9.65	6.9	5.36	4.39	3.71	3.45	2.68
16	12.56	10.05	7.18	5.58	4.57	3.87	3.59	2.79
17	13.06	10.45	7.46	5.8	4.75	4.02	3.73	2.9
18	13.56	10.84	7.75	6.02	4.93	4.17	3.87	3.01
19	14.05	11.24	8.03	6.25	5.11	4.32	4.02	3.12
20	14.55	11.64	8.31	6.47	5.29	4.48	4.16	3.23

I don't actually expect the 2d6 or 2d8 columns to be used for anything other than the occasional super-effective ultra-move, but I put them in anyway. Anyways, it's 1:30 AM and I have class in the morning. This is all I'm posting tonight.

[Quantumboost]

Bluh. Update on movelist work.

I essentially have the last four levels of each moveset worked out. It turns out that having both no empty levels and no 3-at-will or 3-prepared levels on the lowest 6 levels is probably impossible. Working on a program to figure out how to keep the number of overloads to a minimum.

Currently also working on levels 12-16.

[rampaging-poet]

Good to know. Thanks!

With the semester wrapping up, I'll probably have some time to get working on attacks. I think I'll use the existing lists as a general guide, and then check everything over when the final move lists are done. I'll post the preliminary versions of each list's attacks as they're finished.