I guess since the range is Handshake, that means a computer that just uses fiber-optics would be immune to this program. Of course, since the program is B&D, we can consider brains, too, and the metahuman brain has a signal of 0, which means you'd basically walk up and do a Vulcan mind-meld to get information out of an orphan brain. Pretty sweet. For a wireless-disabled computer I assume one would probably want to use Reveal Contents.
Is this phenomenon of multiple programs doing similar things to avoid monotony the same reason why Backtrack and Whois seem so similar? I can appreciate having a few slightly different programs so that when the hacker has just the right one for the job he can feel very special, I just wasn't sure what the reason for it was from your perspective.
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Username17
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Okay, so now I have an issue with Halberstam's Babies. I understand (well, I think I do, anyway) the reason why they're there: it's so corps have some brain on which to run their highly secure servers without hiring an actual person to stand in a room with a commlink on their head who passes the time learning how to juggle or whatever. In fact, I'm pretty sure this is one of the things I asked about on Dumpshock, so I'm glad there's an answer.
But this seems dangerously close to Agent Smith from the Matrix of old, in that there is this thing (agents/babies) that you can make (code/grow) by sticking nuyen into a black box (cubicle farm/nutrient vat) which is accessible to certain people (anyone willing to crack copy protection and hit copy and paste/major corporations with advanced medical technologies). If you're a megacorp with severely secret information to guard, there's no reason to run your server on just one baby - add in four more babies who patrol the server with their own Black Hammer programs for more fun and more real metahuman brains who can track down hackers and make their heads explode five times as fast. Heck, as long as you've got this many brains lying around, why not send them to plow through Matrix security at your rival's place and smash the place up? Or whatever.
Since these are real brains rather than clumps of code, and therefore require a lot of financial upkeep in the form of keeping them alive, the problem is presumably not as bad because they're expensive. However, they're also solely available to major corporations who, as it turns out, have rather a lot of cash to throw around, and there's no reason why the babies couldn't protect more than one server in their spare time. In fact, I envision a building off on some remote island with rows of brains in jars which could immediately respond and with great prejudice to any hacking alerts from anywhere in the company system. Since the hacker only has access to himself and his attack dog, this could really turn the odds against him with not a lot of ways to turn the tables without getting right at the physical brains, which could totally be in another country for all they care.
This could be fine, if you just assert that it's too expensive to be worth it for more than the most top secret projects, and not cost-effective to have some sitting around as just-in-case backup security hackers, but I was was wondering if that was intentional or what.
But this seems dangerously close to Agent Smith from the Matrix of old, in that there is this thing (agents/babies) that you can make (code/grow) by sticking nuyen into a black box (cubicle farm/nutrient vat) which is accessible to certain people (anyone willing to crack copy protection and hit copy and paste/major corporations with advanced medical technologies). If you're a megacorp with severely secret information to guard, there's no reason to run your server on just one baby - add in four more babies who patrol the server with their own Black Hammer programs for more fun and more real metahuman brains who can track down hackers and make their heads explode five times as fast. Heck, as long as you've got this many brains lying around, why not send them to plow through Matrix security at your rival's place and smash the place up? Or whatever.
Since these are real brains rather than clumps of code, and therefore require a lot of financial upkeep in the form of keeping them alive, the problem is presumably not as bad because they're expensive. However, they're also solely available to major corporations who, as it turns out, have rather a lot of cash to throw around, and there's no reason why the babies couldn't protect more than one server in their spare time. In fact, I envision a building off on some remote island with rows of brains in jars which could immediately respond and with great prejudice to any hacking alerts from anywhere in the company system. Since the hacker only has access to himself and his attack dog, this could really turn the odds against him with not a lot of ways to turn the tables without getting right at the physical brains, which could totally be in another country for all they care.
This could be fine, if you just assert that it's too expensive to be worth it for more than the most top secret projects, and not cost-effective to have some sitting around as just-in-case backup security hackers, but I was was wondering if that was intentional or what.
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CatharzGodfoot
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If money, space, energy, and time are no object, you can stockpile an arbitrary amount of anything and you'll have absurdly large amounts of resources to burn because you've burned absurdly large amounts of resources to get them.Gelare wrote:In fact, I envision a building off on some remote island with rows of brains in jars which could immediately respond and with great prejudice to any hacking alerts from anywhere in the company system. Since the hacker only has access to himself and his attack dog, this could really turn the odds against him with not a lot of ways to turn the tables without getting right at the physical brains, which could totally be in another country for all they care.
A fortified island full of banks of brains is the makings of a great mission. A PC with a pile of disposable comlinks and thousands of cracked programs is not.
Yeah, but I'm curious how this is actually supposed to manifest in game. If corps can grow brains to run their servers, why can't they grow brains to protect their servers? And if they can, well...CatharzGodfoot wrote:If money, space, energy, and time are no object, you can stockpile an arbitrary amount of anything and you'll have absurdly large amounts of resources to burn because you've burned absurdly large amounts of resources to get them.Gelare wrote:In fact, I envision a building off on some remote island with rows of brains in jars which could immediately respond and with great prejudice to any hacking alerts from anywhere in the company system. Since the hacker only has access to himself and his attack dog, this could really turn the odds against him with not a lot of ways to turn the tables without getting right at the physical brains, which could totally be in another country for all they care.
Yes. Yes it is. And now I know what I'll be running for my group next.A fortified island full of banks of brains is the makings of a great mission.
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Draco_Argentum
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I don't see this as a huge problem because while you may get cheaper bots, you'll have to pay doctors, nurses, ASIST specialists and psychologists to keep those brains happy and running. So it will make sense for some branches of a corp that happens to have these people on hand anyway. But others will just shell out equivalent money and have real people do the sysadmining while running the network.
At that point it's pretty much down to you deciding if this weeks villains will have their matrix defense run on BRAAAAINS!! or if its Sam Sysadmin keeping you from hacking your way in.
Both come with a different set of weaknesses and strengths thus allowing for a variety in runs.
I'll get around to updating the PDF sometimes next week.
At that point it's pretty much down to you deciding if this weeks villains will have their matrix defense run on BRAAAAINS!! or if its Sam Sysadmin keeping you from hacking your way in.
Both come with a different set of weaknesses and strengths thus allowing for a variety in runs.
I'll get around to updating the PDF sometimes next week.
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Username17
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Once things are taking up actual space and being in actual locations, the potential for abuse is much less. A drone can provide comparable firepower to a soldier, but it also takes up comparable space to a soldier. It uses up logistics chains to move it around, it requires ammunition and can only fit through doorways so fast.
When a potential combatant is taking up 70 liters of realspace, that's a very different animal from something that is running in software entirely within an iPod somewhere in another actor's pockets.
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When a potential combatant is taking up 70 liters of realspace, that's a very different animal from something that is running in software entirely within an iPod somewhere in another actor's pockets.
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I'm a Shadowrun newbie, so please pardon the potentially obvious questions.
On topic: What does the Internal SimRig do that the Internal Commlink cannot?
Off topic: Why is it so important for one of the team members to have a Luxury/High/whatever lifestyle?
On topic: What does the Internal SimRig do that the Internal Commlink cannot?
Off topic: Why is it so important for one of the team members to have a Luxury/High/whatever lifestyle?
Last edited by Surgo on Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Username17
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The SimRig is a series of connections to the character's sensory and motor systems that is ostensibly for recording SimSense for later playback. As a side effect, it makes a fully open and stable connection to all of your senses and interpretive cortex regions and gives you the maximum benefit of having cybered senses for perceiving the Matrix. And it allows you to switch over to Hot VR without having more specialized equipment that is illegal in most jurisdictions.
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ludomastro
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I defer to what Frank said with regard to the SimRig. Regarding lifestyle: there is no requirement for team member to have an uber lifestyle - at least not in my games. Its highly unlikely your neighbors in the Redmond Barrens (the slums of Seattle) are going to mind if you drag someone kicking and screaming home with you. While the corp wannabes in the high rise will just call the cops. In an interrogation: advantage Barrens.
I finally got around to reading the Technomancer stuff, and I really like it. Playable and, instead of just non-retarded, actually pretty awesome.
And all the little references (like Knights of the Eastern Calculus) are really cool.
And all the little references (like Knights of the Eastern Calculus) are really cool.
Last edited by Surgo on Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
What kind of examples are you looking for?Boolean wrote:Questions:
1: Sticky?
2: could we have some rigger-oriented play examples?
In our games the Rigger usually comes to the table with a setup like this:
Logic - Jumped In Shooting, being sneaky and Program use
Intuitition - Jumped in driving tests and dodging are based off this
Physical Attributes tend to be secondary. With Reaction being the highest priority because it helps both with driving and not getting shot.
Skills are the obvious vehicle ones, gunnery and Electronic Warfare with a point in Computer so he doesn't have to default on command tests and a smattering of Datasearch.
Usually he puts a directional retransmitter on his main drone so he can cover the team with signal defense and use the programs he has from there. Add a Jammer for those times things go fubar.
Since EW will be your best skill your program setup follows from there:
Biofeedback Filter
Intercept
ECCM
Cloak
Impersonate
That covers the basics of being sneaky, listening in onto the opposition, taking over drones and not having a big matrix footprint yourself while not breaking your piggy bank.
The easy availability of wireless absorbing paint and similar countermeasures means you won't be able to simply sit in the getaway van and remote the whole operation, so I'd look to combine the Rigger part with something else. Since you already have the decking stats covered and are the proud owner of a expensive commlink expanding into more decking is a no-brainer, you run out of actions in combat really fast though.
Combat type cyber is cheap enough that taking a few unobtrusive pieces allows you to hold your own against a security guard while still having drone artillery for backup.
Logic & Will give you a swathe of knowledge skills and from there you're only 80 BP away from being the parties face character.
Last edited by Sma on Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
I think an example of a hacker brainhacking someone would be neat; I'm still not sure how it's supposed to work in game-mechanics terms (again, Shadowrun newbie).
From how I understand:
- Eliminate their PAN.
- Add a PAN to the orphan brain. This PAN contains your own specialized program to do the mindwiping.
From how I understand:
- Eliminate their PAN.
- Add a PAN to the orphan brain. This PAN contains your own specialized program to do the mindwiping.
Last edited by Surgo on Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Brainhacking in the sense of reprogramming people gets a lot of press, but is relegated to the realm of GM fiat. If your character stick is to reliably make someone do his bidding you are plain better off picking a magician and specializing in manipulation.
Lets take a look at the brainhacking options a player character explicitly gains access to, which are all programs with spelled out opposed tests. Eliminating their PAN will make things easier since they lose the Firewall part of their defense pool.
Find Mind lets you, well find metahumans.
Brainscan & Taxman lets you google in someones brain.
Black Hammer, Contagious RAS Override, Seize, Sensory Deprivation, Peristalsis and Death Note provide you with different flavors of disabling your enemies.
Jingle works very similar to the Influence spell and would be the option of choice for making people do things. But unless you manage to disable your targets commlink, he gets his resistance dice pool from up to 3 sources , while yours comes from two. Combine that with the Veracity table and most of the time you'll have a hard time implanting more than really unintrusive commands (the need for a cigarette break for example).
Now if you manage to abduct your target and Jingle him with a high level program you start getting into brainwashing territory. The same is true for Transfigure. The rules don't actually go into lots of detail what will happen though. You'll have to hash out possible effects with your GM and co-players beforehand which probably is a good idea since the mind control archetype is one that can easy go from intriguing to annoying. This is also true for the magic based equivalent.
You could posit different way of achieving similar effects where you play a simsense track created with fabricate and psychology to make people believe in things and you'd have my support. But in the end that is something which the evil scientist does in his lab and doesn't require rules coverage just like you don't need to know the game mechanics of the program running the taco production line.
Lets take a look at the brainhacking options a player character explicitly gains access to, which are all programs with spelled out opposed tests. Eliminating their PAN will make things easier since they lose the Firewall part of their defense pool.
Find Mind lets you, well find metahumans.
Brainscan & Taxman lets you google in someones brain.
Black Hammer, Contagious RAS Override, Seize, Sensory Deprivation, Peristalsis and Death Note provide you with different flavors of disabling your enemies.
Jingle works very similar to the Influence spell and would be the option of choice for making people do things. But unless you manage to disable your targets commlink, he gets his resistance dice pool from up to 3 sources , while yours comes from two. Combine that with the Veracity table and most of the time you'll have a hard time implanting more than really unintrusive commands (the need for a cigarette break for example).
Now if you manage to abduct your target and Jingle him with a high level program you start getting into brainwashing territory. The same is true for Transfigure. The rules don't actually go into lots of detail what will happen though. You'll have to hash out possible effects with your GM and co-players beforehand which probably is a good idea since the mind control archetype is one that can easy go from intriguing to annoying. This is also true for the magic based equivalent.
You could posit different way of achieving similar effects where you play a simsense track created with fabricate and psychology to make people believe in things and you'd have my support. But in the end that is something which the evil scientist does in his lab and doesn't require rules coverage just like you don't need to know the game mechanics of the program running the taco production line.
Thanks for the PDF. This is about to get printed out and used in my upcoming real-life Shadowrun game.
If you want I can host it somewhere better than Rapidshit; that is, the same place I host the Tome PDF.
If you want I can host it somewhere better than Rapidshit; that is, the same place I host the Tome PDF.
Last edited by Surgo on Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
My hacker player, who knows the rules a lot better than I do, came to me with some concerns on a few areas of this.
* Retransmitters seem too cheap/awesome. You could have one guy in your team carry a retransmiter around, and the hacker could sit off safe in some basement somewhere. You could set up a chain of retransmitters and have one guy carry the last link in the chain and have your hacker sit off in a basement in the next country (though the chain is vulnerable to disruption). It occurs to me now after the lunchtime conversation is over and I had to look that retransmitters of any sort can't actually give you Line of Sight; Line of Sight refers to the original signal producing device.
Directional retransmitters can give line of sight though, and that allows at least one retransmitter to be used with the hacker not being on sight. Is there something I'm missing here that doesn't let them do this? (As I've said, I don't know the rules -that- well.) I don't really have a problem with that if they shell out a bunch of cash for the ability to do this, but the retransmitters aren't that expensive (even the directional ones).
* I'm not entirely sure what's going on in this one, and if someone can explain it to me that would be great. He thinks it's entirely too easy to use Crash on somebody's shit and make them into an orphan brain for a round until their firewall comes back up. If you have only one initiative pass it seems like it would be a rating 1 (but it would still be there) by the time you could act again, but if you have two then they might be an orphan brain for a round. And bad things can happen to them then.
To which I have two questions, now that I've had time to formulate my thoughts: Wouldn't you have to Crash -all- their stuff, not just their commlink. And, would instead the commlink/PAN still be active, just providing a firewall of 0?
* We had another concern, but it turns out we forgot the line where your hits were capped by the program rating. That should probably -also- be said underneath programs to head off confusion from newbies like myself in the future.
Thanks for the help.
edit: Of course in the post there's the implied question: "Is this actually a problem or are we making a mountain out of a molehill?"
* Retransmitters seem too cheap/awesome. You could have one guy in your team carry a retransmiter around, and the hacker could sit off safe in some basement somewhere. You could set up a chain of retransmitters and have one guy carry the last link in the chain and have your hacker sit off in a basement in the next country (though the chain is vulnerable to disruption). It occurs to me now after the lunchtime conversation is over and I had to look that retransmitters of any sort can't actually give you Line of Sight; Line of Sight refers to the original signal producing device.
Directional retransmitters can give line of sight though, and that allows at least one retransmitter to be used with the hacker not being on sight. Is there something I'm missing here that doesn't let them do this? (As I've said, I don't know the rules -that- well.) I don't really have a problem with that if they shell out a bunch of cash for the ability to do this, but the retransmitters aren't that expensive (even the directional ones).
* I'm not entirely sure what's going on in this one, and if someone can explain it to me that would be great. He thinks it's entirely too easy to use Crash on somebody's shit and make them into an orphan brain for a round until their firewall comes back up. If you have only one initiative pass it seems like it would be a rating 1 (but it would still be there) by the time you could act again, but if you have two then they might be an orphan brain for a round. And bad things can happen to them then.
To which I have two questions, now that I've had time to formulate my thoughts: Wouldn't you have to Crash -all- their stuff, not just their commlink. And, would instead the commlink/PAN still be active, just providing a firewall of 0?
* We had another concern, but it turns out we forgot the line where your hits were capped by the program rating. That should probably -also- be said underneath programs to head off confusion from newbies like myself in the future.
Thanks for the help.
edit: Of course in the post there's the implied question: "Is this actually a problem or are we making a mountain out of a molehill?"
Last edited by Surgo on Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Username17
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PM TGFB.
Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.
Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)
brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!
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Quantumboost
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