4E: Why are people so hung up over the Dumbass Melee Fighter

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The 13 Wise Buttlords
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4E: Why are people so hung up over the Dumbass Melee Fighter

Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

So the biggest impetus for 4E was removing the sword-based class/caster imbalance. And we can see where that ended up.

So, I've heard several times on this board is that this is a better edition because the new fighter is better than the old fighter. Which hasn't been proven, but whatever. Let's go with it.

Why is this such a big deal? I mean, seriously, who gives a fuck about this character? It's frankly a low-level archetype, like a plucky squire on a regular horse. Even if you crank up the power to the max, it's inherently going to be boring. Series which involve supposedly high-level Dumbass Melee Fighters, such as Hercules and Bleach, tend to have their protagonists doing things people didn't want their Dumbass Melee Fighters to do.

Yes, really. Hercules ended up having ridiculous amounts of strength, like enough to alter the course of rivers and holding up the sky. He was also an extremely competent archer and negotiator. And at least Bleach, despite being Dragonball Z with swords, mixes it up with the characters being able to float in the air and teleport.

But fans of the Dumbass Melee Fighter don't want these two archetypes. They somehow envision characters like King Arthur being able to carry the day until level 20. This is actually feasible to do in the context of combat. Even if you alter the numbers correctly so they're competent in combat, like Frank and K's fighter class, they're inherently going to have fewer world-shaking abilities. It's just part of the package.

But people can't get over the fact that a 20th level fighter is still going to have to bum rides and pay the local wizard's guild to get to the elemental planes. So what's the solution? Make EVERYONE have to do it the way the 20th level DMF has to.

My question to you is... why?
Last edited by The 13 Wise Buttlords on Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ravengm »

My guess is that someone at WotC has a raging hard-on for the Dumbass Melee Fighter. Honestly, there's no reason I'd want to play a guy who only swings a sword than someone who can make mountains float or whatever. You can only get so epic with human strength.
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Post by Harlune »

*Shrug* Some people just really hate playing any sort of caster, even big burly ones who only use magic for buffing, utility, and movement powers.
For some reason they don't mind if the fighter gets those all sorts of damn powers from his gear, but they'll throw a shit storm if he just casts a flight spell instead of wearing magic winged boots.

Much like like how there are people who don't consider it a proper fantasy unless there's a $%$^ dragon somewhere, or who go violently rabid if there's anything that resembles a firearm in a game.

I also blame all the stories/movies/games that tend to make the fighter guy with the sword the leader/hero/main character. That sets a bad precident for gamers that 'fighter=party leader and VIP'.

Personally I've tried to remove the damn class (and barbs) from games I've run and it just doesn't work. No matter how I try to explain how they just don't exist in the setting as anything beyond grunts and npc cannon fodder, someone always wants to play one AND expects me to shift heaven and earth to make an idiot with a sharp stick equal to people who can bend space/ time/matter/energy with math and freaking avatars of gods.

I also blame all the stories/movies/games the
Last edited by Harlune on Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4E: Why are people so hung up over the Dumbass Melee Fig

Post by RandomCasualty2 »

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote: But fans of the Dumbass Melee Fighter don't want these two archetypes. They somehow envision characters like King Arthur being able to carry the day until level 20. This is actually feasible to do in the context of combat. Even if you alter the numbers correctly so they're competent in combat, like Frank and K's fighter class, they're inherently going to have fewer world-shaking abilities.
Well not everyone is heavy into anime and wants their characters to fly and do all that crap. Some people wnat to play a classical cinematic fantasy hero warrior. And those are Conan, Aragorn, Legolas and a few others from various other obscure fantasy movies like The Beastmaster.

But these guys don't fly, they don't blow up planets with Ki energy and yet they still fight powerful stuff and win.
But people can't get over the fact that a 20th level fighter is still going to have to bum rides and pay the local wizard's guild to get to the elemental planes. So what's the solution? Make EVERYONE have to do it so the 20th level fighter has to do this.

My question to you is... why?
I don't think people are upset that the fighter can't teleport. what they are upset about is having to get buffs from the wizard to be able to fight well, since by picking a guy that is Conan instead of Goku, they don't want flashy magical effects.

So requiring enlarge spells to fight effectively pisses these people off because you're forcing them to change their character concept. Further, you stress the idea that their character is inept without the help of the wizard. Neither of these are good things.

These guys don't want to have to drink potions, wear magic rings or suck a wizard's dick to be good at fighting. They just say "hey man, I'm a fighter, I should be good at swording people out of the box." Conan didn't require buffs from a wizard or magic potions, so why should they?

If you ask me, that's not too unreasonable of a request.
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Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

And those are Conan, Aragorn, Legolas and a few others from various other obscure fantasy movies like The Beastmaster.
RC2, people have told you several times with clear examples that Conan and Aragon don't comform to the Dumbass Melee Fighter archetypes beyond a superficial level.

So I would appreciate it if you stopped pretending like people didn't say this.

But regardless:
These guys don't want to have to drink potions, wear magic rings or suck a wizard's dick to be good at fighting. They just say "hey man, I'm a fighter, I should be good at swording people out of the box." Conan didn't require buffs from a wizard or magic potions, so why should they?

If you ask me, that's not too unreasonable of a request.
Yeah, it's not too unreasonable of a request at low levels. But when your adventures call for fighting Cthulu or Asmodeus, it's time to retire these characters and pick up Goku and Hercules.

There aren't any examples, anime or non-anime, of characters taking on high-level threats with just some grit and a sword. Batman has to break out the big toys for these events and Green Lantern has a ring. Hercules is as blinged-out as any 3rd edition warrior. And so on.
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

I think one overlooked cause of this mindset is that D&D has historically been popular with the SCA crowd. These people get really picky about the "realism" of what the fighter can do in terms of actual medieval tactics and practices. Unfortunately, since nobody actually cast spells in medieval times, magic has no historical accuracy standard. Thus, the double standard for fighters and casters.

And you're absolutely right. People with this mindset use buzzwords like "anime" or "weeaboo fightan magic" to describe potential fighter features they don't like, but they really don't even want the fighter to pull off Western action-movie heroics either.
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Post by Talisman »

I have a better question: Why the hate for the Classic Melee Fighter? Seriously?

Fantasy is often referred to as "Sword & Sorcery" for a very good reason. A vast number of the heroes of fantasy are swordsmen and swordswomen. It's a classic trope, as much as the Elderly Wizard, the Plucky Kid, the Magick Sword, the Artifact of Doom and the Evil Overlord.

When I play a warrior, I don't want to play a wizard with a sword instead of a staff. if I wanted to play a wizard, I'd play a damn wizard. I want to play the guy who carries the day through skill, endurance, strength, cunning, and a bit of luck.
The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:
And those are Conan, Aragorn, Legolas and a few others from various other obscure fantasy movies like The Beastmaster.
RC2, people have told you several times with clear examples that Conan and Aragon don't comform to the Dumbass Melee Fighter archetypes beyond a superficial level.

So I would appreciate it if you stopped pretending like people didn't say this.
You're right; Conan and Aragorn aren't "Dumbass" Melee Fighters: they're Classic Melee Fighters...along with such luminaries as Fafhrd and the Mouser, Corwin (the Amber series), the Leahs (Shannara), etc.

And Hercules? Please; he's a frikkin demigod. That's like holding Hecate up as the classic wizard, or Loki as the archtypal thief.

You yourself brought up Batman. Good example; and do you know why? because Batman is one of the very few "superheroes" withiout actual superpowers; and despite this, he routibely beats superowered adversaries, including other superheroes gone rogue. How?

Through skill, endurance, strength, cunning, and a bit of luck. :wink:
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote: RC2, people have told you several times with clear examples that Conan and Aragon don't comform to the Dumbass Melee Fighter archetypes beyond a superficial level.
I'm talking about the heroic character versus the superhero, which I think is more the heart of the debate.

I really don't care much about the melee guy who is too dumb to use a bow against flying stuff. Lets not even talk about him. That's not a particularly interesting debate and it's a pretty loaded topic anyway.

I'm talking about the guy who does mundane things. he can't fly, he can't teleport and he's basically just limited to doing pretty basic physical stunts. Maybe he's really strong like Conan or he's very agile like Legolas, but you're not talking about Superman.
Yeah, it's not too unreasonable of a request at low levels. But when your adventures call for fighting Cthulu or Asmodeus, it's time to retire these characters and pick up Goku and Hercules.
It really depends on how you handle powerful beings in your game. I mean, Xena was pretty mundane. She had a magic chakram and she fought against Ares and won. Of course there Ares didn't have super awesome superhero powers, he was just strong and a good fighter. Buffy took on Glory who was also a goddess. Buffy had super strength (maybe Conan level or a little higher but not Superhero level strength), and she was able to win. Conan killed a god in Conan the Destroyer by tearing out its horn with his bare hands. No buffs, just raw grapple power.

Again, none of these characters had flight, invisibility or shot space lasers out of their eyes and thunderbolts out of their asses. They were for the most part physically exceptional characters.
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Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

You yourself brought up Batman. Good example; and do you know why? because Batman is one of the very few "superheroes" withiout actual superpowers; and despite this, he routibely beats superowered adversaries, including other superheroes gone rogue. How?
Writer's favoritism and luck.

It's the same reason why Deathstroke is 'such' a threat to the JLA even though by all rights Green Lantern or the Flash should've put him away a long time ago.

I mean, someone wrote a Punisher comic where he took out Magneto. Yeah. The guy who kills people with guns taking out the master of magnetism. That... doesn't prove anything.
Through skill, endurance, strength, cunning, and a bit of luck.
So how would you represent this in a game?
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Post by NoDot »

Talisman wrote:I want to play the guy who carries the day through skill, endurance, strength, cunning, and a bit of luck.
Why do I think that sounds like either the RoW Fighter or the Rogue?
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Post by Orion »

Umm...

Aragorn is, first of all, not exclusively a *melee* fighter, since he's a pretty fair shot. He's also a powerful necromancer-- seriously, he inherited the ability to heal wounds and raise an army of the dead. He's got a pretty respectable collection of magic items-- healing potions, holy sword and crystal ball.

If Batman is anything in D&D, he's a UMD Rogue. Even if for some reason you roled him as a fighter, he's still a character who's power comes entirely from magic equipment.

I'm not a Conan expert, so please enlighten me on what he fights that's so tough. I was under the impression is was mostl scores of mooks, other midlevel warriors and casters who in D&D terms probably have like second level spells.

It also amuses me to no end that you'll claim Corwin as a fihter, but disqualify Heracles on account of being a god. Seriously, Corwin is *also* a god, and a significantly more powerful one than any of the Greek bastards.
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Post by Neeeek »

Talisman wrote: You're right; Conan and Aragorn aren't "Dumbass" Melee Fighters: they're Classic Melee Fighters...along with such luminaries as Fafhrd and the Mouser, Corwin (the Amber series), the Leahs (Shannara), etc.
Conan and the Grey Mouser are more a Rogue type than a Fighter type. Corwin of Amber is a freaking ultra-powerful mage.
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Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

I'm talking about the guy who does mundane things. he can't fly, he can't teleport and he's basically just limited to doing pretty basic physical stunts. Maybe he's really strong like Conan or he's very agile like Legolas, but you're not talking about Superman.
Okay, sure.

So here's a common, but generic, mid-level threat. Some asshole gnomes build a flying tank that lobs fireballs and lightning bolts at the city below. They're flying fairly high, out of the range of most arrows and regardless they're in metal plating.

How does the fighter complete this adventure without 'anime stunts' or magical items?

It really depends on how you handle powerful beings in your game. I mean, Xena was pretty mundane. She had a magic chakram and she fought against Ares and won. Of course there Ares didn't have super awesome superhero powers, he was just strong and a good fighter. Buffy took on Glory who was also a goddess. Buffy had super strength (maybe Conan level or a little higher but not Superhero level strength), and she was able to win. Conan killed a god in Conan the Destroyer by tearing out its horn with his bare hands. No buffs, just raw grapple power.

Again, none of these characters had flight, invisibility or shot space lasers out of their eyes and thunderbolts out of their asses. They were for the most part physically exceptional characters.
Yeah, and notice how all of the opponents in your example got nerfed down to the level where an exceptionally strong character can handle them.

What the fuck is a DMF supposed to do when there is an actual, no-shit god pissed at him and the god is immune to anything softer than Nonsensium and is the size of a cooling tower? And no, we're not nerfing him so that Batman without his utility belt can take him down. If Batman comes running at him without his gear or a convenient MacGuffin, he will pick up Batman and hurl him across the city.

What is he supposed to do when you've snipped off his balls and disallowed him to do anything more than a guy who spends 6 hours a day in the gym?
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

Apparenlty, Conan lives in a world where spellcasters aren't very powerful. Aragorn and Legolas live in a world where the few spellcasters on the side of good either don't have the awesome battlefield control and save-or-dies or are forbidden to use them in 99% of all situations by their divine masters. None of these people have to deal with a party wizard who can do what D&D (pre-4e) wizards could do.

Increasingly, I think a better way to phrase the OP's question would be, "Why the false dichotomy?" It looks like the designers believed that their only choices were to bring fighers up close to caster power level (like the Tomes) or to nerf the casters down to fighter level (like 4e). One wonders why it never occurred to them that, while they were building a new edition almost from scratch, they could have picked a midpoint between the two extremes and balanced all the classes around that point.
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Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

One wonders why it never occurred to them that, while they were building a new edition almost from scratch, they could have picked a midpoint between the two extremes and balanced all the classes around that point.
Because if RC2 is any indication of the target audience for fighters, even the midpoint is unacceptable.

Seriously, he doesn't want fighters using potions or asking wizards for help (including having magic swords forged) even though he's the one who does the ass-kicking with the sword. I mean, what? Except for a significant minority of characters like Reed Richards and Tony Stark and Oliver Stone, most heroes either a) didn't have a hand in the creation of their signature toys or b) summon it from their inherent awesome, like Ichigo over there.
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Post by Neeeek »

Absentminded_Wizard wrote: Increasingly, I think a better way to phrase the OP's question would be, "Why the false dichotomy?" It looks like the designers believed that their only choices were to bring fighers up close to caster power level (like the Tomes) or to nerf the casters down to fighter level (like 4e). One wonders why it never occurred to them that, while they were building a new edition almost from scratch, they could have picked a midpoint between the two extremes and balanced all the classes around that point.
Of course, you are creating a new false dichotomy.

Why not do all three? It's a level-based system. There is no reason why you can't have be what 4e does for it's entire run be the low levels, have whatever midpoint you are proposing be the mid-levels and have Tome-like Fighters be the high levels.
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Post by Talisman »

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:
You yourself brought up Batman. Good example; and do you know why? because Batman is one of the very few "superheroes" withiout actual superpowers; and despite this, he routibely beats superowered adversaries, including other superheroes gone rogue. How?
Writer's favoritism and luck.
Bullshit. You could apply that crappy answer to *any* fictional/mythological character you felt like dissing. Unless and until we have a *live action fantasy game,* you can always put something you dislike down to writer's/GM's favoritism.
Boolean wrote:Umm...

Aragorn is, first of all, not exclusively a *melee* fighter, since he's a pretty fair shot. He's also a powerful necromancer-- seriously, he inherited the ability to heal wounds and raise an army of the dead. He's got a pretty respectable collection of magic items-- healing potions, holy sword and crystal ball.
Aragorn is primarily a melee fighter. I never claimed the Classic Melee Fighter could never use a bow; that would be retarded.

Aragorn's "necromancy" wasn't - his ability to summon the Dead Men of Dunharrow was due to (1) his heritage as Isildur's heir, and (2) the fact that they had broken their oath to Isildur. Aragorn was as much a necromancer as Gimli was.

And explain to me how, exactly, Aragorn's healing ability prevents him from qialifying for "Classic Melee Fighter?" All those times he used it in combat, perhaps? When he spammed it against the undead Nazgul?

Finally, a magic sword and a crstyal ball are a far cry from Dragon Ball Z. Hell, King Arthur had a magic sword.
Neeeek wrote:
Talisman wrote: You're right; Conan and Aragorn aren't "Dumbass" Melee Fighters: they're Classic Melee Fighters...along with such luminaries as Fafhrd and the Mouser, Corwin (the Amber series), the Leahs (Shannara), etc.
Conan and the Grey Mouser are more a Rogue type than a Fighter type. Corwin of Amber is a freaking ultra-powerful mage.
All right; forget Corwin; it's been a while since I read Amber. As for Fafhrd and the Mouser...professionally, they were thieves, but powers-wise, Fafhrd definitely, and the Mouser possible, acted very fighter-like.

In any event, they weren't super-powered pseudowizards. They were normal people with skill and cunning.
The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:
I'm talking about the guy who does mundane things. he can't fly, he can't teleport and he's basically just limited to doing pretty basic physical stunts. Maybe he's really strong like Conan or he's very agile like Legolas, but you're not talking about Superman.
Okay, sure.

So here's a common, but generic, mid-level threat. Some asshole gnomes build a flying tank that lobs fireballs and lightning bolts at the city below. They're flying fairly high, out of the range of most arrows and regardless they're in metal plating.

How does the fighter complete this adventure without 'anime stunts' or magical items?
Who said he couldn't have magic items?
Griffin mount.
Team up with a wizard.
Strap himself into a catapult.
Design a net-catapult and entangle the gnometank.
Face prisoner routine (aka the "Princess Leia".
Fake alliance.
Be creative.
What the fuck is a DMF supposed to do when there is an actual, no-shit god pissed at him and the god is immune to anything softer than Nonsensium and is the size of a cooling tower? And no, we're not nerfing him so that Batman without his utility belt can take him down. If Batman comes running at him without his gear or a convenient MacGuffin, he will pick up Batman and hurl him across the city.

What is he supposed to do when you've snipped off his balls and disallowed him to do anything more than a guy who spends 6 hours a day in the gym?
If there's an actual, capital-G God angry at your PC, you don't fight him. PCs should never fight gods directly, IMO.

Again, why are you depriving Batman of his utility belt? Why not say a wizard withut spells? A cleric who's on the outs with his deity?

D&D *requires* that you have a certain amount of gear just to survive. In your example, nobody wins...you've arbitrarily deprived the PCs of their ability to affect the enemy, making it not a threat but a plot device.

Honestly, stop throwing up strawmen.

Arrgh, damn new keyboard.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote: Okay, sure.

So here's a common, but generic, mid-level threat. Some asshole gnomes build a flying tank that lobs fireballs and lightning bolts at the city below. They're flying fairly high, out of the range of most arrows and regardless they're in metal plating.

How does the fighter complete this adventure without 'anime stunts' or magical items?
Well, that's not really an adventure. Lets say it's a flying fortress or ship, so there's something to get aboard, as opposed to just some random encounter with a flying construct. That's actually an adventure because you've got room to sneak around, and it likely consists of multiple encounters.

Here's a list.
  • Get a flying mount and board it that way.
  • get to the top of a mountain where you're close enough to grappling hook onto it and then get up there.
  • Steal one of the gnomes smaller flying ships that they use to get to and from the flying ship.
  • Wait for the flying thing to land and sneak aboard and sabotage it.
  • Steal the plans for the design from gnomish HQ and track down the components to build your own.
All of those could lead to cool cinematic stories. And hell you get aboard airships in Final fantasy all the damn time without being able to fly as an innate ability.
Yeah, and notice how all of the opponents in your example got nerfed down to the level where an exceptionally strong character can handle them.
Not nerfed, just a different style. Nobody says that gods have to be comic book style walking skyscrapers with laser beam eyes. A god like Glory that's really fast, strong and nearly invulnerable is certainly possible.
What the fuck is a DMF supposed to do when there is an actual, no-shit god pissed at him and the god is immune to anything softer than Nonsensium and is the size of a cooling tower? And no, we're not nerfing him so that Batman without his utility belt can take him down. If Batman comes running at him without his gear or a convenient MacGuffin, he will pick up Batman and hurl him across the city.
That's a loaded question, since you've created a supervillain threat and want a classical hero to take it out. Likely you use some kind of MacGuffin, like getting the head of a medusa to petrify it, similar to Clash of the Titans.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Boolean wrote:Aragorn is, first of all, not exclusively a *melee* fighter, since he's a pretty fair shot. He's also a powerful necromancer-- seriously, he inherited the ability to heal wounds and raise an army of the dead. He's got a pretty respectable collection of magic items-- healing potions, holy sword and crystal ball.
Actually, I think the Peter Jackson films are the first depiction of Aragorn carrying a bow. He's never described as carrying or wielding one in the texts, AFAIK.
Boolean wrote:If Batman is anything in D&D, he's a UMD Rogue. Even if for some reason you roled him as a fighter, he's still a character who's power comes entirely from magic equipment.
Bruce Wayne KO'd a full-grown bear when he was nine years old, without any of his training or gadgets, by the power of his inborn talent alone.

Just sayin'.
Boolean wrote:I'm not a Conan expert, so please enlighten me on what he fights that's so tough. I was under the impression is was mostl scores of mooks, other midlevel warriors and casters who in D&D terms probably have like second level spells.
I agree. Conan is at the top of his game, but the game in the Hyborean Age just doesn't go that high. I mean, he brings a knife to a gorilla fight and walks away - that's badass - and fights a few fairly dangerous demon types, but nothing in the Hyborean age is really more than, say, CR9.
Boolean wrote:It also amuses me to no end that you'll claim Corwin as a fihter, but disqualify Heracles on account of being a god. Seriously, Corwin is *also* a god, and a significantly more powerful one than any of the Greek bastards.
Um, Corwin has nothing on the depicted powers of, let's say, Zeus. He can't change forms at will, throw all-consuming thunderbolts, or wrestle earthquakes. He's very tough, very strong, very skilled, and can travel between worlds. He's a pretty good depiction of what a mid-high fighter should be.
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Post by Neeeek »

Talisman wrote:
Neeeek wrote: Conan and the Grey Mouser are more a Rogue type than a Fighter type. Corwin of Amber is a freaking ultra-powerful mage.
All right; forget Corwin; it's been a while since I read Amber. As for Fafhrd and the Mouser...professionally, they were thieves, but powers-wise, Fafhrd definitely, and the Mouser possible, acted very fighter-like.
I said Conan and the Mouser. Fafhrd was definitely a fighter.

Conan was mostly a sneaky bastard that fought when he couldn't avoid it. He beat his enemies by out-planning and outsmarting them (I know most people only know the movie version, or "Dumb Conan", but a lot of that is still in there.)
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Post by MartinHarper »

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:So here's a common, but generic, mid-level threat. Some asshole gnomes build a flying tank that lobs fireballs and lightning bolts at the city below. They're flying fairly high, out of the range of most arrows and regardless they're in metal plating.
Off the top of my head, he shoots them with a bow. They're out of range of most arrows, but not his arrows, because he's a hero and such. With said arrows, he either pierces the armour, or hits a weak point for massive damage. Possibly he uses a seige weapon rather than a regular bow.
The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:What the fuck is a DMF supposed to do when there is an actual, no-shit god pissed at him and the god is immune to anything softer than Nonsensium and is the size of a cooling tower?
If he's a god like, say, Yahweh, you beat him by being in an iron chariot.
Bottom line: fictional gods don't have to be particularly powerful. Model them on all the gods that aren't the Christian God, and you'll be fine.
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Post by Talisman »

Neeeek wrote:I said Conan and the Mouser. Fafhrd was definitely a fighter
My bad. Trying to answer severall post at once and fighting with this new @#$%^ keyboard.
Conan was mostly a sneaky bastard that fought when he couldn't avoid it. He beat his enemies by out-planning and outsmarting them (I know most people only know the movie version, or "Dumb Conan", but a lot of that is still in there.)
So maybe he had some rogue levels. Are you saying a fighter's not allowed to be sneaky? Or tactical? Or intelligent?

13 Buttlords's title for this thread is very telling: the "Dumbass Melee Fighter." I despise the "dumb fighter" concept as much as anyone else, but the most effective fighters are intelligent. Conan, as you yourself pointed out, Neeeek, was not dumb: he was crafty and clever and fought only when he had to. For this "flaw," people refuse to believe he was a fighter...because "fighters are dumb."
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The 13 Wise Buttlords
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Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

Bullshit. You could apply that crappy answer to *any* fictional/mythological character you felt like dissing. Unless and until we have a *live action fantasy game,* you can always put something you dislike down to writer's/GM's favoritism.
No, seriously. I call it a plot contrivance because it is one.

Deathstroke is depicted as a low-superhuman fighter, whom guys like Green Arrow can take on in melee to very limited success; it's mostly a squash match, like a peasant taking on a knight but it isn't completely hopeless.

In Identity Crisis, he manages to stab Flash with a sword by blocking his path to him with timed explosions.

That's right, the guy who can run at the speed of light and he manages to do this to him.

There isn't any logical reason for Deathstroke to be able to do this, other than it looks cool and advances the plot. This kind of crap happens all the time in comics and it's okay.

But it's not okay to do this in roleplaying. Otherwise you have cops and robbers, only instead you're playing nuclear missiles and rabbits and the rabbits have infinite veto power.

Who said he couldn't have magic items?
Griffin mount.
Team up with a wizard.
Strap himself into a catapult.
Design a net-catapult and entangle the gnometank.
Face prisoner routine (aka the "Princess Leia".
Fake alliance.
Be creative.
RC complained about fighters having their powers come from magic items because A) it degrades the Aesop of being able to save the world by working out a lot and B) fighters can't create said magic on their lonesome.

Teaming up with a wizard creates the same problem.

You can't strap yourself onto a catapult for this example. One is because the flying tank is OUT OF THE RANGE OF ARROWS but two and more important is because we're not allowing anime stunts, remember? Surviving being hurled onto a flying chunk of metal is definitely an anime stunt.
Design a net-catapult and entangle the gnometank.
Face prisoner routine (aka the "Princess Leia".
Fake alliance.
None of these which have anything to do with an actual fighter's ability to affect the plot. This is the DM force-feeding you available options.
Be creative.
Lol be creative. Behold, the neverbefore seen second step of our infamous PROFIT! plan. Yeah, if you're creative enough, you can do anything! But wait, we can't be too creative, because that puts us in the realm of Weeaboo Fightan Magick!

If there's an actual, capital-G God angry at your PC, you don't fight him. PCs should never fight gods directly, IMO.
This isn't an actual capital-G God. When I say God, I mean more this charming fellow: http://www.onemanga.com/Fist_of_the_North_Star/24/17/
Again, why are you depriving Batman of his utility belt? Why not say a wizard withut spells? A cleric who's on the outs with his deity?
I don't want to deprive Batman of his utility belt. It's part of who Batman is.

I'm describing how absolutely retarded it is to state that Batman should be allowed to go on high-level adventures without his utility belt. But fans of the Dumbass Melee Fighter state that the Dumbass Melee Fighter should be competitive without their toys. Apparently it's very insulting to their fans when you claim that at a certain level they just aren't shit without their gear. Um... so?

Even though clerics and wizards and Goku are flat-out better than a mundane without gear, who gives a rat's ass? They're always going to have their gear, it's just part of the game.
Well, that's not really an adventure. Lets say it's a flying fortress or ship, so there's something to get aboard, as opposed to just some random encounter with a flying construct. That's actually an adventure because you've got room to sneak around, and it likely consists of multiple encounters.
Objection: there are seriously adventures as simple as 'there's a flying monstrosity shooting fireballs at our peasant village--GO!!' but whatever. Let's roll with it.

That is, as long as you acknowledge the fact that I know that you're going for a 'kill the crew and disable the controls' scenario'. Because you've probably already realized that a tank, while an acceptable adventure, is just going to make a fighter look bad.
Here's a list.

Get a flying mount and board it that way.
I thought you were against fighters having to suck up to other characters to complete adventures?

What's the practical difference between bumming a ride off of Pegasus or asking a wizard for a Fly spell?
get to the top of a mountain where you're close enough to grappling hook onto it and then get up there.
Said adventure takes place at a city. Furthermore, just how high do you think you can throw a grappling hook?
Steal one of the gnomes smaller flying ships that they use to get to and from the flying ship.
So what, now we're relying on the DM to force-feed you options again? What's the difference between relying on an NPC for some power and bumming a fly spell from a wizard?
Wait for the flying thing to dock and sneak aboard and sabotage it.

Steal the plans for the design from gnomish HQ and track down the components to build your own.
And now the city is destroyed. Good going, hero!
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Post by Talisman »

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:
Bullshit. You could apply that crappy answer to *any* fictional/mythological character you felt like dissing. Unless and until we have a *live action fantasy game,* you can always put something you dislike down to writer's/GM's favoritism.
No, seriously. I call it a plot contrivance because it is one.
I still call bullshit.

Frodo destroying the Ring? Plot contrivance.
Luke shooting down the Death Star? Plot contrivance.
Superman defeating Doomsday? Plot contrivance.
Hercules defeating the hydra? Plot contrivance.

Seriously, this is a bankrupt argument. You could apply it to anyone with equal veracity. It may be true (I know nothing about Deathstroke) in some specific cases, but Batman's whole schtick is "normal human who takes down super-weirdos through cunning."
RC complained about fighters having their powers come from magic items because A) it degrades the Aesop of being able to save the world by working out a lot and B) fighters can't create said magic on their lonesome.
The fact that they can't is a failing of D&D. Fighters should be able to take Craft Magic Pointy Things. Problem solved.
Teaming up with a wizard creates the same problem.
D&D is a team game. A lone wizard is going to run into trouble as well.
I'm describing how absolutely retarded it is to state that Batman should be allowed to go on high-level adventures without his utility belt. But fans of the Dumbass Melee Fighter state that the Dumbass Melee Fighter should be competitive without their toys. Apparently it's very insulting to their fans when you claim that at a certain level they just aren't shit without their gear. Um... so?
I certainly don't recall saying this...at least, not in D&D, since D&D assumes you have X amount of shinies just to survive.
What's the practical difference between bumming a ride off of Pegasus or asking a wizard for a Fly spell?
The pegasus is the fighter's mount. It's not an independant entity; it's literally part of the fighter character.
So what, now we're relying on the DM to force-feed you options again? What's the difference between relying on an NPC for some power and bumming a fly spell from a wizard?
Apparently our GM is a jerk and there's only One True Way to solve this dilemma. Since he's shooting down all our ideas, we break for beer until he decides to "force-feed" us the *one* solution.

Strawman.
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Post by MartinHarper »

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:They're flying fairly high, out of the range of most arrows.
The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:The flying tank is OUT OF THE RANGE OF ARROWS.
Most arrows.
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