4E: Why are people so hung up over the Dumbass Melee Fighter

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
virgil
King
Posts: 6339
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by virgil »

Which is further supported by the fact that within the framework of the CR/level system of 3E, orcs and uruk hai can retain their clear difference in strength by just giving one the elite array (or better ability bonuses) and keeping both in level 1 warrior territory. From what I remember, orcs were closer to D&D's half-orcs in terms of strengths (then throw another +2 strength on the uruk hai).

Against 6th level, elite array (or better) players, that's a slaughter waiting to happen.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Post by JonSetanta »

FrankTrollman wrote:It's a frickin magic circle against evil. Gandalf is like a 5th level Cleric.

-Username17
It stopped a fire whip in the movie. Can Circle do that too?
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
User avatar
CatharzGodfoot
King
Posts: 5668
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: North Carolina

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

sigma999 wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:It's a frickin magic circle against evil. Gandalf is like a 5th level Cleric.

-Username17
It stopped a fire whip in the movie. Can Circle do that too?
AC+2, baby!
User avatar
Bigode
Duke
Posts: 2246
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Bigode »

Well, say, Talisman, wants classes that "feel like warriors" and "are comparable choices to spellcasters", right?
Barbarian
"My name is Sharptooth of the Wolf Tribe. Your women, lands, and riches are mine."

Playing a Barbarian: Playing a Barbarian is actually very easy. In general, you hit things, and they fall down. A Barbarian's action in almost any circumstance can plausibly be "I hit it with my great axe!" As such, a Barbarian character can be a good method to introduce a new player to the game or kill some orcs when you've had a few glasses of brew.

Alignment: Every alignment has its share of Barbarians, however more Barbarians are of Chaotic alignment than of Lawful Alignment.

Races: Anybody can become a barbarian, and in areas with little in the way of civilization, a lot of people do.

Starting Gold: 4d6x10 gp (140 gold)

Starting Age: As Barbarian.

Hit Die: d12
Class Skills: The Barbarian’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge: Nature (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Poor; Will: Poor

Level, Benefit
1 Rage, Fast Healing 1
2 Rage Dice +1d6, Combat Movement +5’
3 Battle Hardened
4 Rage Dice +2d6, Combat Movement +10’
5 Sidestep Hazards , Fast Healing 5
6 Rage Dice +3d6, Combat Movement +15’
7 Great Blows
8 Rage Dice +4d6, Combat Movement +20’
9 Great Life
10 Rage Dice +5d6, Combat Movement +25’, Fast Healing 10
11 Call the Horde
12 Rage Dice +6d6, Combat Movement +30’
13 Watched by Totems
14 Rage Dice +7d6, Combat Movement +35’
15 Primal Assault, Fast Healing 15
16 Rage Dice +8d6, Combat Movement +40’
17 Savagery
18 Rage Dice +9d6, Combat Movement +45’
19 One With The Beast
20 Rage Dice +10d6, Combat Movement +50’, Fast Healing 20

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Barbarians are proficient with simple weapons, martial weapons, light armor, medium armor and with shields.

Rage (Ex): When doing melee damage to a foe or being struck by a foe, a Barbarian may choose to enter a Rage as an immediate action. While Raging, a Barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus to hit and damage in melee combat and may apply any Rage Dice he has to his melee damage rolls. He also gains a +2 to saves, a -2 to AC, and he gains DR X/- with “X” being equal to half his Barbarian level +2 (rounded down). For example, a 1st level Barbarian has DR 2/- while Raging and a 10th level Barbarian has DR 7/- while Raging.
While Raging, a Barbarian may not cast spells, activate magic items, use spell-like abilities, or drop his weapons or shield. Rage lasts until he has neither struck an enemy for three consecutive rounds nor suffered damage from an enemy for three consecutive rounds. He may voluntarily end a Rage as a full-round action.

Fast Healing: Barbarians shrug off wounds that would cripple a lesser man, and have learned to draw upon deep reserves of energy and stamina. At 1st level, they gain Fast Healing 1. At 5th level this becomes Fast Healing 5, Fast Healing 10 at 10th level, Fast Healing 15 at 15th level, and Fast Healing 20 at 20th level. This healing only applies while he is not raging.

If a Barbarian ever multi-classes, he permanently loses this ability. A multiclass character does not gain this ability. A character with 4 or more levels of Barbarian gains this ability even if multiclassed.

Rage Dice: While Raging, a Barbarian may add these dice of damage to each of his melee attacks. These dice are not multiplied by damage multipliers, and are not applied to any bonus attacks beyond those granted by Base Attack Bonus. These dice are not sneak attack dice, and do not count as sneak attack dice for the prerequisites of prestige classes or feats.

Combat Movement: While Raging, a Barbarian moves faster in combat, and may add his Combat Movement to his speed when he takes a move action to move.

Battle Hardened: At 3rd level, a Raging Barbarian’s mind has been closed off from distractions by the depths of his bloodlust and battle fury. While Raging, he may use his Fortitude Save in place of his Will Save. If he is under the effects of a compulsion or fear effect, he may act normally while Raging as if he was inside a protection from evil effect.

Sidestep Hazards(Ex): At 5th level, a Raging Barbarian learns to sidestep hazards with an intuitive and primal danger sense. While Raging, he may use his Fortitude Save in place of his Reflex Save.

Great Blows (Ex): At 7th level, a Raging Barbarian’s melee attacks are Great Blows. Any enemy struck by the Barbarian’s melee or thrown weapon attacks must make a Fort Save or be stunned for one round. No enemy can be targeted by this ability more than once a round, and the save DC for this ability is 10 + half the Barbarian’s HD + his Constitution modifier.

Great Life (Ex): While Raging, a 9th level Barbarian is immune to nonlethal damage, death effects, stunning, critical hits, negative levels, and ability damage (but not ability drain).

Call the Horde(Ex): An 11th level Barbarian becomes a hero of his people. He gains the Command feat as a bonus feat, but his followers must be Barbarians. In campaigns that do not use Leadership feats, he instead gains a +2 unnamed bonus to all saves.

Watched by Totems (Ex): At 13th level, a Barbarian may immediately reroll any failed save. He may do this no more than once per failed save.

Primal Assault (Ex): At 15th level, a Raging Barbarian’s may choose to radiate an effect similar to an antimagic field when he enters a Rage, with a caster level equal to his HD. Unlike a normal antimagic field, this effect does not suppress magic effects on him or the effects of magic items he is wearing or holding.

Savagery (Ex): At 17th level, a Raging Barbarian may take a full round action to make a normal melee attack that has an additional effect similar to a mordenkainen’s disjunction. Unlike a normal Imordenkainen’s disjunction, this effect only targets a single item or creature struck.

One With The Beast: At 19th level, a Barbarian may no longer needs to be in a Rage to use any Barbarian ability.
Fighter
"I've seen this kind of fire-breathing chicken-demon before. We're going to need more rope. Also a bigger cart."

The Fighter is a versatile combatant who is able to actively disrupt the activities of his enemies. Fighters represent plucky heroes and grizzled veterans, but they always appear to surmount impossible odds. Which means in retrospect that the odds weren't all that impossible. At least, not for someone with a Fighter's talents.

Playing a Fighter: Fighters are often handed to beginning players in order to help them learn the ropes. This is a cruel practice that dates back to when the Fighter was explicitly a weak class that players were forced to play to the (quit proximate) death if for whatever reason they didn't roll well enough on their stats to play a real character. The Fighter described here is not the hazing ritual of old, but it is a more complicated character than many others, being the non-magical equivalent to the Wizard. Beginning characters should probably be given a Barbarian, Conduit, or Rogue character to introduce them to the game mechanics of D&D.

A Fighter has an answer for virtually any circumstance and a great deal of adaptability and flexibility, and benefits greatly from being played by a player who actually knows how far a Roper's strands or a Beholder's rays reach. The Fighter character is archetypically a character who uses her opponent's limitations against them, and it really slows down play if the player needs to have those limitations explained during combat. As such, a full classed Fighter is recommended for experienced players of the game.

That being said, a level or two of Fighter can give some breadth and resilience to almost any martial build, and makes a good multiclassing dip even (sometimes especially) for inexperienced players.

Alignment: Every alignment has its share of Fighters, however more Fighters are of Lawful alignment than of Chaotic Alignment.

Races: Every humanoid race has warriors, but actual Fighters are rarer in societies that don't value logistics and planning. So while there are many Fighters among the Hobgoblins, Dwarves, and Fire Giants, a Fighter is rarely seen among the ranks of the Orcs, Gnomes, or Ogres.

Starting Gold: 6d6x10 gp (210 gold)

Starting Age: As Fighter.

Hit Die: d10
Class Skills: The Fighter's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skills/Level: 6 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Weapons Training, Combat Focus
2 Bonus Feat
3 Problem Solver, Pack Mule
4 Bonus Feat
5 Logistics Mastery, Active Assault
6 Bonus Feat
7 Forge Lore, Improved Delay
8 Bonus Feat
9 Foil Action
10 Bonus Feat
11 Lunging Attacks
12 Bonus Feat
13 Array of Stunts
14 Bonus Feat
15 Greater Combat Focus
16 Bonus Feat
17 Improved Foil Action
18 Bonus Feat
19 Intense Focus, Supreme Combat Focus
20 Bonus Feat

All of the following are Class Features of the Fighter class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Fighters are proficient with all simple and Martial Weapons. Fighters are proficient with Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor and with Shields and Great Shields.

Weapons Training (Ex): Fighters train obsessively with armor and weapons of all kinds, and using a new weapon is easy and fun. By practicing with a weapon he is not proficient with for a day, a Fighter may permanently gain proficiency with that weapon by succeeding at an Intelligence check DC 10 (you may not take 10 on this check).

Combat Focus (Ex): A Fighter is at his best when the chips are down and everything is going to Baator in a handbasket. When the world is on fire, a Fighter keeps his head better than anyone. If the Fighter is in a situation that is stressful and/or dangerous enough that he would normally be unable to "take 10" on skill checks, he may spend a Swift Action to gain Combat Focus. A Fighter may end his Combat Focus at any time to reroll any die roll he makes, and if not used it ends on its own after a number of rounds equal to his Base Attack Bonus.

Problem Solver (Ex): A Fighter of 3rd level can draw upon his intense and diverse training to respond to almost any situation. As a Swift action, he may choose any [Combat] feat he meets the prerequisites for and use it for a number of rounds equal to his base attack bonus. This ability may be used once per hour.

Pack Mule (Ex): Fighters are used to long journeys with a heavy pack and the use of a wide variety of weaponry and equipment. A 3rd level Fighter suffers no penalties for carrying a medium load, and may retrieve stored items from his person without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Logistics Mastery (Ex): Fighters are excellent and efficient logisticians. When a Fighter reaches 5th level, he gains a bonus to his Command Rating equal to one third his Fighter Level.

Active Assault (Ex): A 5th level Fighter can flawlessly place himself where he is most needed in combat. He may take a 5 foot step as an immediate action. This is in addition to any other movement he takes during his turn, even another 5 foot step.

Forge Lore: A 7th level Fighter can produce magical weapons and equipment as if he had a Caster Level equal to his ranks in Craft.

Improved Delay (Ex): A Fighter of 7th level may delay his action in one round without compromising his Initiative in the next round. In addition, a Fighter may interrupt another action with his delayed action like it was a readied action (though he does not have to announce his intentions before hand).

Foil Action (Ex): A 9th level Fighter may attempt to monkeywrench any action an opponent is taking. The Fighter may throw sand into a beholder's eye, bat aside a key spell component, or strike a weapon hand with a thrown object, but the result is the same: the opponent's action is wasted, and any spell slots, limited ability uses, or the like used to power it are expended. A Fighter must be within 30 feet of his opponent to use this ability, and must hit with a touch attack or ranged touch attack. Using Foil Action is an Immediate action. A Fighter may not wait until an action is partially completed before deciding to attempt to foil the action, but must instead attempt to foil an action as it is declared. Note that this means that a Fighter may not foil a Full Attack (because it is not declared until after it has already begun), nor may he foil a move or charge action that began out of range.
At 17th level, Foil Action may be used at up to 60 feet.

Lunging Attacks (Ex): The battlefield is an extremely dangerous place, and 11th level Fighters are expected to hold off Elder Elementals, Hezrous, and Hamatulas. Fighters of this level may add 5 feet to the reach of any of their weapons.

Array of Stunts (Ex): A 13th level Fighter may take one extra Immediate Action between his turns without sacrificing a Swift action during his next turn.

Greater Combat Focus (Ex): At 15th level, a Fighter may voluntarily expend his Combat Focus as a non-action to suppress any status effect or ongoing spell effect on himself for his Base Attack Bonus in rounds.

Intense Focus (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may take an extra Swift Action each round (in addition to the extra Immediate Action he can take from Array of Stunts).

Supreme Combat Focus (Ex): A 19th level Fighter may expend his Combat Focus as a non-action to take 20 on any die roll. He must elect to use Supreme Combat Focus before rolling the die.
Knight
"Do you hear me you big lizard? You unhand that young man this instant!"

Knights are more than a social position, in fact many knights don't have any social standing at all. These knight errants uphold the values of honor, and make a name for themselves adventuring.

Playing a Knight: A Knight has the potential to dish out tremendous damage to a single opponent, and it is tempting to think of them as monster killers. However, it is best to realize in advance that the Knight does not often realize their tremendous damage output. The threat of the Knight's Designate Opponent ability is just that – a threat. A Knight excels at defensive tasks, and attacking a Knight is often one of the least effective options an opponent might exercise.

So by making it be a logical combat action for your opponents to attack your party's defensive expert, you've really contributed a lot to the party. A Knight can take a lot of the heat off the rest of the party. So don't get frustrated if enemies constantly interrupt your Designate Opponent action – that's the whole point. A Knight's role is to protect others, and the best way you can do that is to provide a legitimate threat to your opponents.

Alignment: Many Knights are Lawful. But not all of them. You have to maintain your code of conduct, but plenty of Chaotic creatures can do that too.

Races: Knights require a fairly social background to receive their training. After all, a solitary creature generally has little use for honor. As such, while Knights often spend tremendous amounts of time far from civilization, they are almost exclusively recruited from the ranks of races that are highly urban in nature.

Starting Gold: 6d6x10 gp (210 gold)

Starting Age: As Fighter.

Hit Die: d12
Class Skills: The Knight's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History, Nobility, and Geography) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Poor; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Designate Opponent, Mounted Combat, Code of Conduct
2 Damage Reduction
3 Energy Resistance, Speak to Animals
4 Immunity to Fear, Knightly Spirit
5 Command
6 Defend Others, Quick Recovery
7 Bastion of Defense, Draw Fire
8 Mettle, Spell Shield
9 Sacrifice
10 Knightly Order

All of the following are Class Features of the Knight class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Knights are proficient with all simple weapons and Martial Weapons. Knights are proficient with Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor, Shields and Great Shields.

Designate Opponent (Ex): As a Swift Action, a Knight may mark an opponent as their primary foe. This foe must be within medium range and be able to hear the Knight's challenge. If the target creature inflicts ay damage on the Knight before the Knight's next turn, the attempt fails. Otherwise, any attacks the Knight uses against the opponent during her next turn inflict an extra d6 of damage for each Knight level. This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally allotted her by her Base Attack Bonus.
  • Example: Vayn is a 6th level Knight presently benefiting from a haste spell, granting her an extra attack during a Full Attack action. On her turn she designates an Ettin as her primary opponent, and the Ettin declines to attack her during the ensuing turn. When her next turn comes up, she uses a Full Attack and attacks 3 times. The first two hits inflict an extra 6d6 of damage, and then she designates the Ettin as her opponent again. It won't soon ignore her!


Mounted Combat: A Knight gains Mounted Combat as a bonus feat at 1st level. If she already has Mounted Combat, she may gain any Combat feat she meets the prerequisites for instead.

Code of Conduct: A Knight must fight with honor even when her opponents do not. Indeed, a Knight subscribes to honor to a degree far more than that which is strictly considered necessary by other honorable characters. Actions which even hint at the appearance of impropriety are anathema to the Knight:
  • A Knight must not accept undo assistance from allies even in combat. A Knight must refuse bonuses from Aid Another actions.
  • A Knight must refrain from the use poisons of any kind, even normally acceptable poisons such as blade toxins.
  • A Knight may not voluntarily change shape, whether she is impersonating a specific creature or not.
  • A Knight may not sell Magic Items.
A Knight who fails to abide by her code of conduct loses the ability to use any of her Knightly abilities which require actions until she atones.

Damage Reduction (Ex): A Knight trains to suffer the unbearable with chivalry and grace. At 2nd level, she gains Damage Reduction of X/-, where X is half her Knight level, rounded down.

Energy Resistance (Ex): A Knight may protect herself from energy types that she expects. As a Swift Action, a 3rd level Knight may grant herself Energy Resistance against any energy type she chooses equal to her Knight Level plus her Shield Bonus. This energy resistance lasts until she spends a Swift Action to choose another Energy type or her Shield bonus is reduced.

Speak to Animals (Ex): A Knight can make herself understood by beasts. Her steed always seems to be able to catch the thrust of anything she says. A 3rd level Knight gains a bonus to any of her Ride and Handle Animal checks equal to half her Knight Level. In addition, there is no limit to how many tricks she can teach a creature, and her Handle Animal checks are not penalized for attempting to get a creature to perform a trick it does not know.

Immunity to Fear (Ex): At 4th level, a Knight becomes immune to [Fear] effects.

Knightly Spirit (Ex): As a Move Equivalent Action, a 4th level Knight may restore any amount of attribute damage or drain that she has suffered.

Command: A Knight gains Command as a bonus feat at level 5.

Defend Others (Ex): A 6th level Knight may use her own body to defend others. Any ally adjacent to the Knight gains Evasion, though she does not.

Quick Recovery (Ex): If a 6th level Knight is stunned or dazed during her turn, that condition ends at the end of that turn.
  • Example: Vayn is hit by a mindblast and would be stunned for 7 turns. She misses her next action and then shakes off the condition ready to fight.


Bastion of Defense (Ex): A 7th level Knight can defend others with great facility. All adjacent allies except the Knight gain a +2 Dodge bonus to their Armor Class and Reflex Saves.

Draw Fire (Ex): A 7th level Knight can exploit the weaknesses of unintelligent opponents. With a Swift Action, she may pique the interest of any mindless opponent within medium range. That creature must make a Willpower Save (DC 10 + ½ Hit Dice + Constitution Modifier) or spend all of its actions moving towards or attacking the Knight. This effect ends after a number of rounds equal to the Knight's class level.

Mettle (Ex): An 8th level Knight who succeeds at a Fortitude Partial or Willpower Partial save takes no effect as if she had immunity.
  • For example, if Vayn was hit with an inflict wounds spell and made her saving throw, she would take no damage instead of the partial effect in the spell description (half damage in this case).

Spell Shield (Ex): An 8th level Knight gains Spell Resistance of 5 + her character level. This Spell Resistance is increased by her shield bonus to AC if she has one.

Sacrifice (Ex): As an immediate action, a 9th level Knight may make herself the target of an attack or targeted effect that targets any creature within her reach.

Knightly Order: What is a powerful Knight without a descriptive adjective? Upon reaching 10th level, a Knight must join or found a Knightly order. From this point on, she may ignore one of the prerequisites for joining a Knightly Order prestige class. In addition, becoming a member of an order has special meaning for a 10th level Knight, and she gains an ability related to the order she joins. Some sample orders are listed below:
  • Angelic Knight The Angelic Knights are a transformational order that attempts to live by the precepts of the upper planes. An Angelic Knight gains wings that allow her to fly at double her normal speed with perfect maneuverability. Also an Angelic Knight benefits from protection from evil at all times.
  • Bane Knight The Bane Knights stand for running around burning the countryside with extreme burning. Bane Knights are immune to fire and do not have to breathe. In addition, a Bane Knight may set any unattended object on fire with a Swift Action at up to Medium Range.
  • Chaos Knight Chaos Knights stand for madness and Giant Frog. With the powers of Giant Frog, they can Giant Frog. Also their natural armor bonus increases by +5 and they are immune to sleep effects.
  • Dragon Knight Dedicated to the Platinum Dragon, the Dragon Knights serve love and justice in equal measure as dishes to those who need them. A Dragon Knight gains a +5 bonus to Sense Motive and any armor she wears has its enhancement bonus increased to +5 (it also gains a platinum sheen in the process, and as a side effect a Dragon Knight is never dirty for more than a few seconds).
  • Elemental Knight The Elemental Knights may be dedicated to a particular element, or somehow dedicated to all of them. An Elemental Knight can planeshift at will to any Inner plane or the Prime Material plane. Also, she is immune to stunning and always benefits from attune form when on any Inner Plane.
  • Fey Knight Using the powers of the Sprites, the Fey Knight has many fairy strengths. Firstly, she gains DR 10/Iron. Also, any of her attacks may do non-lethal damage at any time if this is desired. Also she never ages and does not need to drink.
  • Great Knight Clad in opulent armor, the Great Knight cares only for her own power. The Great Knight gains a +4 bonus on Disarm or Sunder tests, and gains a +4 Profane bonus to her Strength.
  • Hell Knight Forged in the sulphurous clouds of Baator, the Hell Knight is bathed in an evil radiance. In addition to being granted a ceremonial weapon made of green steel, a Hell Knight gains the coveted see in darkness ability of the Baatorians. Also, she has an inherent ability to know what every creature within 60' of finds most repugnant.
  • Imperial Knight The great Empire needs champions able to unswervingly support its interests, and the Imperial Knight is one of the best. She may impose a zone of truth at will as a Supernatural ability, and all of her attacks are Lawfully aligned. Also, she continuously benefits from magic circle against Chaos.


Iconic Knight: In examples, we will always use the Lady Vayn, the Iconic Goblin Knight.
Marshall
"The Jarls of Niefelheim think to banish our summers to a land of darkness. If they succeed there will be no second chances, no future generations. We will stop them here. For if our children's children are to even exist, they must remember our bravery on this day!"

The Marshall is a leader of men. Whether a member of a squad of Halfling special forces or the head of a rampaging horde of Bugbears, the Marshall's true home is the battlefield.

Alignment: Leaders arise on every aspect of the wheel. From the hordes of the Orcs to the formations of the Dwarves, there is almost always a charismatic leader at the head of any serious army. Serious armies are often employed by the forces of Law, as the forces of Chaos are often wont to be embodied by individuals pillaging without reference one to another. But the forces of Chaos have their share of tyrants as well.

Races: Almost all Marshalls are humanoids. There are few races of Giants or Magical Beasts that form warbands sufficient to warrant military leadership.

Attributes: Charisma is oof prime importance to a Marshall. Other than that, a Marshall spends a lot of time yelling in plain view of enemies, so Constitution is of perhaps greater importance for them than it is to many other classes.

Starting Gold: 6d6x10 gp (210 gold)

Starting Age: As Paladin.

Hit Die: d12
Class Skills: The Marshall's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge [Any] (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (-), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Good (as Fighter), Saves: Fort: Good; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Battle Shout, Heal Injuries, Inspire Bravery
2 Untiring, Magic Circle
3 Dispelling Glare, War Shout
4 Bolster Allies, Inspire Heroism
5 Aura of Healing, Project Voice
6 Leadership, Restoration
7 Heal, Terrible Shout
8 Inspire Foolishness, Delaying Shout
9 Inspire the Masses, Revive the Dead
10 Mass Heal, Command Enemies
11 Massive Presence, Inspire Greater Heroism
12 Convert Opponents.

All of the following are Class Features of the Marshall class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Marshalls are proficient with all simple and Marshall weapons, as well as any Exotic Weapons appropriate to their race, religion, or culture. Marshalls are proficient with light, Medium, and Heavy armor as well as Shields and Tower Shields.

Battle Shout (Ex): With a Swift Action, a Marshall may scream super loud and work up his allies for battle. All allies within short range gain a Morale Bonus to attack and damage rolls for 10 rounds. This bonus is half the Marshall's class level (rounded up) or the Marshall's Charisma modifier, whichever is less. Allies must be able to see and hear the Marshall for this bonus to take effect.

Heal Injuries (Sp): The blood of an army is the life of its men, and soldiers who cannot fight are less than worthless. With a one minute ritual, a Marshall can heal a number of characters equal to his class level of a number of hit points of damage equal to his ranks in the Heal skill. This action may be taken a number of times per day equal to 3 + the Marshall's Charisma Modifier (if any), and all affected characters must be within close range of the Marshall or the entire period.

Inspire Bravery (Ex): A Marshall's mere presence is a boon to the morale of his compatriots. All allies within short range of a Marshall may add the Marshall's Charisma modifier to their saves against [Fear] effects.

Untiring (Ex): A 2nd level Marshall need not ever sleep and is immune to any effects which cause fatigue, exhaustion, or sleep.

Magic Circle (Su): A 2nd level Marshall radiates a magic circle against an alignment of his choice at all times. He can end, resume, or change the alignment of his circle as a Swift action.

Dispelling Glare (Su): A 3rd level Marshall can attempt to destroy a magical effect by staring at it really hard. As a Swift Action, the Marshall may attempt to dispel a single magical effect or suppress a single magical item within medium range and line of sight. The dispelling effect and DC is as per dispel magic, and the Marshall's check is a d20 + Marshall Level.

War shout (Ex): At 3rd level, a Marshall's Battle Shout effects all allies within Long Range. The allies must still be able to hear and see the Marshall as normal.

Bolster Allies (Ex): With a Swift action, a 4th level Marshall may assist all allies within short range of himself. These allies may each reroll one die roll made before the Marshall's next turn. They must be able to see and hear the Marshall when the reroll is called for.

Inspire Heroism (Ex): The allies of a 4th level Marshall are capable of heroic, even improbable feats so long as they can see and hear the Marshall. All allies within Short Range of the Marshall gain a +1 Luck bonus on attack rolls, skill and ability checks, and saves.

Aura of Healing (Su): A 5th level Marshall can activate an Aura of Healing as a Swift Action. This aura lasts for 10 rounds and may be activated a number of times per day equal to the Marshall's Charisma modifier. All allies within short range heal a number of hit points equal to the Marshall's ranks in Heal during the Marshall's turn while the aura is in effect.

Project Voice (Ex): The voice of a 5th level Marshall carries super far. In anything approaching normal conditions, the Marshall can project his voice out for a mile. The Marshall can automatically dispel a silence or similar effect as a Swift action.

Leadership: At 6th level, a Marshall gains a Leadership feat that he qualifies for as an additional feat.

Restoration (Sp): A 6th level Marshall canh cast restoration as a spell-like abilty at will.

Heal (Sp): A 7th level Marshall may use heal as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to his Character Level. This may be used a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier.

Terrible Shout (Ex): A 7th level Marshall can spook all enemies within Medium range with a terrible war howl. Enemies who can see and hear the Marshall within range must make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier) or become frightened for 10 rounds. This is a [Fear] effect and only affects creatures with an Intelligence score. Creatures who succeed in their save are unaffected for the next 24 hours.

Inspire Foolishness (Ex): People do dumb stuff for an 8th level Marshall. All allies within Short Range of a Marshall are immune to Fear so long as they can see and hear the Marshall.

Delaying Glare (Ex): An 8th level Marshall can trip up and delay enemies with a steady Glare and an intimidating stance. With a Swift Action, the Marshall may force all enemies within Medium Range to make a Will save (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier) or become slowed for 10 rounds. Enemies must be able to see the Marshall, but they need not hear him.

Inspire the Masses (Ex): The Inspiration abiilties of a 9th level Marshall extend to Long range, provided that the allies can still see and hear the Marshall.

Revive the Dead (Sp): A 9th level Marshall can refill the ranks of his army by returning the fallen to life. With a 10 minute ritual, the Marshall can return a dead creature back to life so long as it dies within a number of days equal to the Marshall's ranks in the Heal skill. The newly alive awaken with a number of hit points as if they had had zero and then rested for 1 day (usually 2 hit points per hit die). The Marshall may do this a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier. This abiilty does not affect a character's level, nor does it restore removed body parts.

Mass Heal (Sp): A 10th level Marshall can cast mass heal as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma modifier.

Command Enemies (Ex): With a standard action, a Marshall can issue commands to opponents as the spell greater command. Unless enemies make a Will Save (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier), these commands are obeyed. This is a [Mind Affecting] [LKanguage Dependant] ability.

Massive Presence (Su): An 11th level Marshall can grow one size category and emit light as a bonfire at will. In addition to making the Marshall stronger and more powerful as normal, the Marshall is of course much easier to see. This effect may be begun or ended as a Swift Action.

Inspire Greater Heroism (Ex): At 11th level, the Luck bonus provided by Inspire Heroism increases to +2. It still affects all allies who can see and hear him within Long Range (because of the Inspire the Masses ability).

Convert Opponents (Ex): A 12th level Marshall can make an opponent within Medium Range Friendly to himself and his cause with a Standard Action unless the creature makes a Will Save (DC 10 + ½ Level + Charisma Modifier). This is a [Mind Affecting] [Compulsion] effect, but any changes in attitude caused by subsequent Diplomacy or actions are not. In all other respects, this functions as charm monster. This ability may be used at will.
Samurai
"My ancestors had words for people who would do such a thing. They were not nice words."

The war torn countrysides of many a land are held together with tremendous amounts of dedicated work by masters of weaponry and honor. These martial specialists represent the structure of society by their very existence, and beat the living crap out of any who would dare to stand against it.

At least, that's the idea. In truth, there are those who take upon the mantle of the Samurai only to betray its ideals. Those who trample the fabric of the social network they are supposedly sworn to protect.

Alignment: The Samurai can be of any alignment. All of them must maintain the veneer of honor and civility, though there is no reason that they have to actually be Lawful.

Races: The Samurai is primarily found in societies where the law of the land is held in primacy over other things. So while a Samurai himself does not have to be Lawful, Lawful races bear the vast majority of Samurai.

Starting Gold: 4d6x10 gp (140 gold), plus one masterwork weapon

Starting Age: As Fighter.

Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: The Samurai's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Good (1/1), Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Poor; Will: Good

Level, Benefit
1 Ancestral Weaponry, Pledge of Loyalty
2 Horde Breaker
3 Kiai!
4 Whirlwind Attack
5 Ancestral Guidance
6 Blindfighting, Terrible Blows
7 Iaijutsu
8 Parry Magic
9 Subtle Cut
10 Blade of Devastation
11 Iaijutsu Focus
12 Cut Magic
13 Deny Arcane Defenses
14 Final Cut
15 Iaijatsu Master
16 Reflect Magic
17 Blade of Souls
18 Deny Armor
19 Iaijutsu Grandmaster
20 Scrolls of Wisdom

All of the following are Class Features of the Samurai class:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Samurai are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as a single Exotic weapon appropriate to the Samurai's tradition. Samurai are proficient with Light and Medium Armor, but not with shields of any kind.

Ancestral Weaponry: Every culture with a Samurai tradition has a signature weapon that Samurai from that culture use. Whether it is the Spiked Chain of the Hobgoblin Khanate of Khadun or the Katana of the Human Empire of Rokugan, the weapon serves as a symbol of the office and prowess of the Samurai.
A samurai can only have one weapon designated as his Ancestral Weapon at a time, and this weapon must be a masterwork weapon exalted by the Samurai's warrior culture. He must perform a 24 hour ritual to call his ancestral spirits into the weapon and designate it as his Ancestral Weapon. This ritual costs 100 gp in incense and offerings, and once performed grants the following abilities:
-Counts as his Ancestral Weapon for all Samurai abilities.
-Has a minimum enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to his level divided by three (maximum of +5 for a samurai of 20th level or lower).
-The Ancestral weapon has double HPs and +10 Hardness, and has the Ghost Touch special
property.
  • Example: Bandy Humaido is a halfling samurai, and his people greatly extort the halfling skiprock as a weapon of war – but because the skiprock is thrown weapon ammunition, it is inappropriate as an Ancestral Weapon (which, of course, you could only have one of). As such, Bandy instead draws the power of his ancestors into a short sword.


Pledge of Loyalty:
Samurai pledge their loyalty to a Lord, a figure of temporal power and head of a noble family or clan. To retain this Lord, they must follow this Lord's orders and uphold any Code of Conduct the Lord obeys. As long as a Samurai does these two things, he cannot be forced to act against his Lord or Lord's family by mind-affecting effects.

Samurai who have broken their vows to their lord are called ronin, while samurai who have never been pledged to a lord or are unwilling to do so are weaponmasters called kensai, sword saints, or simply "master swordsman" or other descriptive title. Regardless of their name, Samurai without a Lord receive a +4 bonus against mind-affecting effects.

Horde Breaker: A Samurai gains Horde Breaker as a bonus feat at 2nd level. If the Samurai already has this feat, he may choose a [Combat] Feat instead, but only if he meets the prerequisites of that feat.

Kiai! (Ex): At 3rd level, a Samurai may convert a successful strike into a confirmed critical hit. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his half his Samurai level +2. This ability is a free action that is declared after the strike is rolled and confirmed as a hit, but before damage is rolled. This ability cannot be used on Attacks of Opportunity.

Whirlwind Attack: A Samurai gains Whirlwind Attack as a bonus feat at 4th level.

Ancestral Guidance(Sp): At 5th level, a Samurai may seek guidance from his ancestors. This counts as a commune effect that can be used once a day. A samurai can also seek guidance from other peoples' ancestors if they are available. This works like a speak with dead effect that may be used once per day.

Blindfighting: A Samurai gains Blindfighting as a bonus feat at 6th level. If the Samurai already has this feat, he may choose a [Combat] Feat instead, but only if he meets the prerequisites of that feat.

Terrible Blows (Su): At 6th level, a Samurai's Ancestral Weapon bypasses Damage Reduction and ignores Hardness.

Iaijutsu (Ex): When a 7th level Samurai has the Edge on an opponent, he may take an attack of opportunity against that opponent as an immediate action at any time.

Parry Magic (Su): At 8th level, a Samurai may use his Ancestral Weapon to parry magic targeted at him. When the Samurai is targeted by a spell or supernatural ability, he may take an Attacks of Opportunity against the targeted effect. If he can make an attack roll against an AC equal to the spell or effect's DC with this Attack of Opportunity, the effect does not affect him.

Subtle Cut A Samurai gains Subtle Cut as a bonus feat at 9th level. If the Samurai already has this feat, he may choose another [Combat] Feat instead, but only if he meets the prerequisites of that feat.

Blade of Devastation (Su) At 10th level, the Samurai may attack enemies within his reach through objects and walls, his Ancestral Weapon automatically destroying any unattended object or wall in the way with a Hardness less than 20. As a result, enemies do not gain cover bonuses against an attacking Samurai. This effect can also pierce [force] effects.

As a standard action, he can also destroy unattended objects of any Hardness with a successful Ancestral weapon attack, or dispel up to a 10' by 10' section of a [force] effect.

Iaijutsu Focus (Ex): At 11th level, a Samurai may make up to his per round limit of Attacks of Opportunity against any opponent(s) that he threatens as an immediate action.

Cut Magic (Su): At 12th level, a Samurai may attack ongoing spell effects by attacking the square they are in for Area of Effect effects or the object or person for targeted effects (which does damage as normal to the object or person). This attack is handled like the Samurai's Parry Magic ability, but it only dispels a 10' by 10' section of an Area of Effect spell or spell-like ability.

Deny Caster Defenses (Ex): At 13th level, a Samurai attacking with his Ancestral Weapon ignores any AC bonuses on his targets that come from spells or spell-like abilities.

Final Cut(Ex): At 14th level, a Samurai's Ancestral Weapon gains the Vorpal Special quality, even if it is not a slashing weapon.

Iaijatsu Master(Ex) : At 15th level, any enemy struck by a Samurai's Attacks of Opportunity must make a Fortitude save against a DC equal to 10 + half the Samurai's HD +the Samurai's Wisdom bonus or be dazed for one round. A successful save against this effect makes the enemy immune to this effect for five rounds.

Reflect Magic(Su) : At 16th level, an spell effect that would be dispelled by a successful use of the Samurai's Parry Magic ability can instead be reflected back on the caster, as per a spell turning effect.

Blade of Souls: At 17th level, any enemy killed by a Samurai's Ancestral Weapon has his soul sucked into it, and this enemy cannot be raised, resurrected, or otherwise returned to life until the Ancestral Blade is broken. Each time the Ancestral Weapon takes a soul, the Samurai gains a single bonus use of his Kiai! ability that must be used before the next sunrise.

Deny Armor(Su): At 18th level, a Samurai attacking with his Ancestral Weapon ignores any AC bonuses on his targets that come from armor or natural armor.

Iaijutsu Grandmaster (Ex): At 19th level, any Attack of opportunity made by the Samurai is automatically a confirmed critical hit.

Scrolls of Wisdom: At 20th level, the Samurai has reached the pinnacle of his art, and he may compose a treatise of his collected wisdom. If he spends one month composing this treatise, he may distribute it and spread his wisdom. Anyone who reads this treatise gains a +2 competence bonus to attack characters with Samurai levels, but a -8 penalty to attack the writer of the treatise.

In addition, a Samurai who writes his treatise no longer takes ability penalties for aging as long as one copy of the treatise exists.

Iconic Samurai: In examples, we will always use Bandy Humaido, the Iconic Halfling Samurai.
So, remind me: what's there to even discuss?
Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.
Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)
brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!
LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by K »

sigma999 wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:It's a frickin magic circle against evil. Gandalf is like a 5th level Cleric.

-Username17
It stopped a fire whip in the movie. Can Circle do that too?
Yes, but only if we assume that the Balrog is a summoned creature and the fire whip is a natural attack.

In fact, a 1st level protection from evil would do the trick.


----------------------------

The point is simple: fighters can do fantastic things that aren't magical, they just can't be too flashy. Magic = flashy. Fighters are not flashy.

Ash from Army of Darkness seriously takes over the kingdom and trains an army in a matter of days, and no one bats an eye. Madmartigan from Willlow kills a dragon by jumping on it and stabbing it with extreme prejudice. Bard one-shots an unkillable dragon.

In stories, they do it by plot device. In a game, those plot devices need to be actual abilities. The warrior-types in the Tome series are just a first step to the actual changes that need to be made to turn DnD's conception of a fighter into fantasy literature's conception of a fighter.

I mean, no one cares if Dragon Highlord's from Dragonlance get to command actual dragons in battle because they are NPCs and the plot requires it, so why not let PC barbarians call up barbarian hordes at will just like Wulfgar in The Crystal Shard?

Heck, Corwin in the Amber series is most noted for the fact that he led armies to Amber's gates and almost took it and sword-fought his peers to a standstill (or won). The fact that he knew a few magic tricks is just flavor text.

Elric seriously had the power to call dragons and cast spells. He was just way more awesome when he killed fools with Stormbringer, so he did that.


I mean, to go a few pages back and reconsider the gnome flying machine example, I see no reason why "getting a free teleport from a wizard" is not just a fighter's real class ability. You could explain it by saying that wizard's are notoriously paranoid and would never do it for another wizard or a rogue, but they know that fighters won't trip them up with intrigues so they'll do it in exchange for a favor (to be named later, and happening offscreen, in downtime, and so well within a fighter's abilities to not grant XP or treasure).

By the same token, the wizard needs to cast his own spell, the rogue steals a teleport rod, and the barbarian evokes the power of the Sky Pony to lift him up.
User avatar
Psychic Robot
Prince
Posts: 4607
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 10:47 pm

Post by Psychic Robot »

K wrote:The point is simple: fighters can do fantastic things that aren't magical, they just can't be too flashy. Magic = flashy. Fighters are not flashy.
This is what I've been trying to say all along. Thank you for putting it into words for me.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
RandomCasualty2
Prince
Posts: 3295
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:22 pm

Post by RandomCasualty2 »

K wrote: I mean, to go a few pages back and reconsider the gnome flying machine example, I see no reason why "getting a free teleport from a wizard" is not just a fighter's real class ability. You could explain it by saying that wizard's are notoriously paranoid and would never do it for another wizard or a rogue, but they know that fighters won't trip them up with intrigues so they'll do it in exchange for a favor (to be named later, and happening offscreen, in downtime, and so well within a fighter's abilities to not grant XP or treasure).
The problem with that as a class ability is that it works only in town, and can just as easily be handwaved as part of the plot.

I mean if I'm DMing for a group of fighters for whatever reason and nobody can plane shift, yet I want to run an adventure on the elemental plane of fire, then an NPC wizard offers to plane shift them there or what not or gives the rogue a scroll of plane shift.
User avatar
virgil
King
Posts: 6339
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by virgil »

The problem with that as a class ability is that it works only in town, and can just as easily be handwaved as part of the plot.
This shows a distinct lack of imagination on your part, and hints that you want the DM to tell the players to tell a story, rather than have the players contribute anything meaningful.
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
shau
Knight-Baron
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by shau »

K wrote:
I mean, to go a few pages back and reconsider the gnome flying machine example, I see no reason why "getting a free teleport from a wizard" is not just a fighter's real class ability. You could explain it by saying that wizard's are notoriously paranoid and would never do it for another wizard or a rogue, but they know that fighters won't trip them up with intrigues so they'll do it in exchange for a favor (to be named later, and happening offscreen, in downtime, and so well within a fighter's abilities to not grant XP or treasure).
Could you elaborate on this? Because I am hearing something like the fighter gets a wizard cohort to keep him level appropriate, but I do not think that is what you mean.
K wrote:
By the same token, the wizard needs to cast his own spell, the rogue steals a teleport rod, and the barbarian evokes the power of the Sky Pony to lift him up.
We definitely need more powers based upon the Sky Pony.
RandomCasualty2
Prince
Posts: 3295
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:22 pm

Post by RandomCasualty2 »

virgileso wrote:
This shows a distinct lack of imagination on your part, and hints that you want the DM to tell the players to tell a story, rather than have the players contribute anything meaningful.
Not really, it just shows a little reasonable interpretation. Because if you say an ability like that might work other places, it becomes heavily open to DM rulings, which means you use it whenever the DM wants. At least if it's in town, it becomes a concrete ability that the PC knows what it does.

Of course you could go to the complete extreme and say the PC could use it anywhere, but that just leads to stupidity where you have this magic wizard who follows you everywhere to teleport you yet you don't pay him anything and he has no real reason to do it. That's pretty lame.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by K »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
K wrote: I mean, to go a few pages back and reconsider the gnome flying machine example, I see no reason why "getting a free teleport from a wizard" is not just a fighter's real class ability. You could explain it by saying that wizard's are notoriously paranoid and would never do it for another wizard or a rogue, but they know that fighters won't trip them up with intrigues so they'll do it in exchange for a favor (to be named later, and happening offscreen, in downtime, and so well within a fighter's abilities to not grant XP or treasure).
The problem with that as a class ability is that it works only in town, and can just as easily be handwaved as part of the plot.

I mean if I'm DMing for a group of fighters for whatever reason and nobody can plane shift, yet I want to run an adventure on the elemental plane of fire, then an NPC wizard offers to plane shift them there or what not or gives the rogue a scroll of plane shift.
The key element is not that you'll handwave for the plot, but that the fighter has an ability that makes the DM handwave for the PC.

The Fighter uses his ability, and the DM then makes up a story about how the Oracle of Thessela has been watching him all this time and has decided by the stars that the time to help is now. Next week when he needs to get a raise dead the God of War sends a herald to take care of it. Last week he needed a contact other plane and Marxitrix the Infamous traded him a handful of gold and the location of the Maze of Tears.

In fantasy literature, helpful casters surround heroes. Why should DnD be different, and why should the DM instigate those plot points rather than the PC? I mean, casters create plot points whenever they cast a setting-affecting spell, and here is a way for fighters to do that too.

For uncreative types who don't want to have a create an excuse each time, we can even have a Gygaxian chart to inject random story reasons into the overall story arc.
Last edited by K on Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
CatharzGodfoot
King
Posts: 5668
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: North Carolina

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

K wrote:For uncreative types who don't want to have a create an excuse each time, we can even have a Gygaxian chart to inject random story reasons into the overall story arc.
Hell yeah! That could be a lot of fun.
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by K »

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
K wrote:For uncreative types who don't want to have a create an excuse each time, we can even have a Gygaxian chart to inject random story reasons into the overall story arc.


Hell yeah! That could be a lot of fun.
I'll admit a fondness for Gygaxian charts. Wands of Wonder are super fun.
User avatar
Talisman
Duke
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: The Cliffs of Insanity!

Post by Talisman »

Bigode wrote:So, remind me: what's there to even discuss?
The fact that 4e doesn't support this guy any better than 3.x did.

The fact that some people seem to think the Fighting Man is a quaint archetype that shouldn't exist past level 5 or so.

IIRC, the Tome classes you cited were created by Frank and Keith to recitfy just this imbalance.
MartinHarper wrote:Babies are difficult to acquire in comparison to other sources of nutrition.
User avatar
virgil
King
Posts: 6339
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by virgil »

My sister and I loved the wands of wonder. So much so we obtained an even larger random magical effect chart, ten thousand different results. Much to my sister's annoyance, I later created a set of three charts where the effects don't deviate too much in power; because the 10k chart has effects that include "nearest star goes supernova" or "nearest castle turns into chocolate".
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
Amra
Knight
Posts: 400
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Amra »

RC, if you're not comfortable with the suggestions put forward by K as to how the fighter's lucky stars follow him around, consider this: he gets a class ability that allows him to influence - by some means or other - allied spellcasters into providing what he needs to do his job. It's going to relegate the casters to support crew if it isn't handled well, but that's just a reversal of what happens in the caster/non-caster relationship as it is. If there are no spellcasters around then it doesn't matter because he's not being overshadowed by them when they aren't there!

It's like everyone's been saying; there's nothing wrong with fighters needing a leg-up from spellcasters from time to time. Even frickin' Conan got friendly magely mojo from time to time when going up against serious bad-guy hoodoo. Spellcasters gave him the help where they might not have given it to anyone else because he's Conan, as hardcore as they get. It's the only model that works in D&D for making fighters really matter at high level, along with actually giving them class features like Frank and K have done.
The 13 Wise Buttlords
Master
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 5:19 am

Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

And if you don't like THAT, there's always the Exalted approach.

If you want something done that's out of your power level, you need to find an appropriate number of elemental spirits / demons / gods (gods aren't anywhere near as powerful in combat in this game as in other fiction) and beat the crap out of them until you get what you want.

You don't have to beat them. Sometimes your influence or dreams or social skills or (GASP! SHOCK! HORROR! SHAMEFUL MASTURBATION!) supernatural abilities is enough to influence them. The result is the same, though, you have gods using their power to make you a castle out of nowhere.
User avatar
Count Arioch the 28th
King
Posts: 6172
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Amra wrote:RC, if you're not comfortable with the suggestions put forward by K as to how the fighter's lucky stars follow him around, consider this: he gets a class ability that allows him to influence - by some means or other - allied spellcasters into providing what he needs to do his job. It's going to relegate the casters to support crew if it isn't handled well, but that's just a reversal of what happens in the caster/non-caster relationship as it is. If there are no spellcasters around then it doesn't matter because he's not being overshadowed by them when they aren't there!

It's like everyone's been saying; there's nothing wrong with fighters needing a leg-up from spellcasters from time to time. Even frickin' Conan got friendly magely mojo from time to time when going up against serious bad-guy hoodoo. Spellcasters gave him the help where they might not have given it to anyone else because he's Conan, as hardcore as they get. It's the only model that works in D&D for making fighters really matter at high level, along with actually giving them class features like Frank and K have done.
Ah, sort of the Vivi/Steiner method, I take it?
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Post by JonSetanta »

K wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:
K wrote:For uncreative types who don't want to have a create an excuse each time, we can even have a Gygaxian chart to inject random story reasons into the overall story arc.


Hell yeah! That could be a lot of fun.
I'll admit a fondness for Gygaxian charts. Wands of Wonder are super fun.
Ughhhh bad memories.
What a timewaster, those charts. Decent if one is lacking for imagination at that moment or wants something truly random that they would otherwise never have thought up, but in most cases it becomes a "check page 234 on paragraph 3, second line" all over AD&D.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
User avatar
virgil
King
Posts: 6339
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by virgil »

sigma999 wrote:
K wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:

Hell yeah! That could be a lot of fun.
I'll admit a fondness for Gygaxian charts. Wands of Wonder are super fun.
Ughhhh bad memories.
What a timewaster, those charts. Decent if one is lacking for imagination at that moment or wants something truly random that they would otherwise never have thought up, but in most cases it becomes a "check page 234 on paragraph 3, second line" all over AD&D.
Aww come on, they were fun.

THere were some nonsensical ones like "caster has green thumb, any plant touched will grow fortuitously."

While it has no needed effect at all, it was god damned fun!
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
K
King
Posts: 6487
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by K »

sigma999 wrote:
K wrote:
CatharzGodfoot wrote:

Hell yeah! That could be a lot of fun.
I'll admit a fondness for Gygaxian charts. Wands of Wonder are super fun.
Ughhhh bad memories.
What a timewaster, those charts. Decent if one is lacking for imagination at that moment or wants something truly random that they would otherwise never have thought up, but in most cases it becomes a "check page 234 on paragraph 3, second line" all over AD&D.
I've had great fun with them.

For example, one of the best times was when two crews were fighting on a pirate ship and we got the WoW's "everything within 30' turns to stone", which was interpreted as "everything, including the ship".

Best sinking ship adventure ever.
ckafrica
Duke
Posts: 1139
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

Post by ckafrica »

Sorry for the late chime in but this topic is one of my pet peeves

Really I find that my problem lies in the fact that the RPG world that I, as a warrior-phile, want to play in does not go beyond probably 10th, but the game goes to 20+. Everybody keeps on saying that most heroic characters of literature are not even level 10. And that's what I want to play, but DnD goes to 20 so what do you do? You either move out of what the archetype you set out to play can do or you cap the game early and just play with no progression, which sucks. So I'd much rather have levels 1-10 spread out over a longer period and have godly powers an optional overlay for those who want it.

Why can't we have a warrior who can learn variety of combat actions that makes them feel like they are doing cool interesting things throughout their life without having to resort to the supernatural. I think 4e got it right in providing everyone as many things they could do. They just failed at making (m)any of them that cool and not giving out enough of them.
The internet gave a voice to the world thus gave definitive proof that the world is mostly full of idiots.
Quantumboost
Knight-Baron
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Quantumboost »

There's a third option (assuming core 3.5 warrior-style classes) besides moving out of the archetype and artificially capping levels early; just have the campaign, or at least your participation therein, end at L10 or thereabouts and make sure it's known that's what you're doing ahead of time. That way you get to fight a big evil dude, gain the spoils, and then retire to run your own little kingdom somewhere.
Why can't we have a warrior who can learn variety of combat actions that makes them feel like they are doing cool interesting things throughout their life without having to resort to the supernatural.
I dunno.
ckafrica
Duke
Posts: 1139
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: HCMC, Vietnam

Post by ckafrica »

Well one problem with just telling everybody that they are finishing at level 10 is that players like a sense of progress and they are always looking forward to what's ahead. I know there will be people jonesing for the higher teared abilities that they have in the book. People will want to finish up their PrC and all that jazz. If you slow down level progression to allow for a longer story than they are gonna feel like their characters are stagnating. I honestly like having a new thing after every chapter to draw on. Something that makes me feel my character is better; cooler. With levels its all or nothing so the longer you want to drag out 10 levels the less the characters feel like they're moving.

But that is probably why I've always preferred the idea of no levels no classes (heck no attributes) Just a list of abilities that you can from after every game so you always feel like you got something from the adventure more than loot.

PS: I recognize the F&K stuff as an improvement but it is not really leading to the style of play that I'm talking about. I want more lateral progression
The internet gave a voice to the world thus gave definitive proof that the world is mostly full of idiots.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13877
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

Oddly enough, I hold the inverse opinion. I think 1-4 should be curb-stomped and the game should start at 5th, quickly progress to the ~10 stage, then slowly move on to 20th. And I don't even care if, at the later levels, nothing makes sense any more and people are just wandering around with really powerful abilities. If it's balanced, well, that's a huge plus, but by that point, if the game has worked up to it, I can't bring myself to care too much.

Of course, there are few "traditional fantasy" stories I really liked - Discworld as a setting would be interesting and possibly the only example of low magic and low power that I'd go with. The rest... Feist and Eddings, I'd read their books but not play games based on those worlds. Tolkien I regret even reading.

I entered D&D having watched Slayers. I was disappointed to find that casting was not like that. It's somewhat of a surprise that I actually stuck around long enough to discover that higher levels fixed that - that Slayers could be replicated by pretending games started close to tenth.

As for stretching levels out, it's going to be a problem. You might want to grant some stuff separate, such as extra skill points or whatever, but largely it's going to all be in one. And I prefer that, as long as levelling happens frequently enough (or, for higher levels, gaining new spells and stuff in between levels). Because going "Ooh! XP! Let's see, I could... get a new skill." is really lame. It leads to some people blowing all their XP on small things immediately, others always hoarding and only spending XP on the good stuff, and others generally feeling let down in that they're only ever getting part of the deal, even though it's happening more often.
Post Reply