4E: Why are people so hung up over the Dumbass Melee Fighter

[angelfromanotherpin]

You can't strap yourself onto a catapult for this example. One is because the flying tank is OUT OF THE RANGE OF ARROWS but two and more important is because we're not allowing anime stunts, remember? Surviving being hurled onto a flying chunk of metal is definitely an anime stunt.

Crap. That sort of thing exists in warrior myths from all over the world. Is Cu Chullain's ability to throw a spear through ten men an anime stunt, too?

[Psychic Robot]

Crap. That sort of thing exists in warrior myths from all over the world. Is Cu Chullain's ability to throw a spear through ten men an anime stunt, too?

No, it's a power granted by exception-based design. Nobody else has it because it's overpowered. FIGHTERS AREN'T STRIKERS!

[Talisman]

Psychic Robot, I can never tell when you're serious anymore.

I tend to assume you're not.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

I still call bullshit.

Frodo destroying the Ring? Plot contrivance.
Luke shooting down the Death Star? Plot contrivance.
Superman defeating Doomsday? Plot contrivance.
Hercules defeating the hydra? Plot contrivance.

Frodo destroying the Ring was a plot contrivance, not because of the method of destruction (which was explicitly detailed before the start of his adventure), but his journey through Mordor, but that's a separate issue.

Luke shooting down the Death Star was not a plot contrivance. His adventure to the Death Star involved finding out the weakness in the first place and then he still had to endure a difficult fight to get there.

I don't know about Superman beating Doomsday. I haven't seen any rematches nor the details of the fight scene, so I can't comment on it.

Hercules defeating the Hydra was not a plot contrivance. He was established as That Hardcore before the fight to withstand the poisonous breath and came up with a genuinely ingenious way of defeating it.

Do you know what plot contrivance stands for? It's a way of advancing the plot that's just too convenient for the characters to maintain suspension of disbelief. Superman knocking out The Thing in one punch is not a plot contrivance. Spiderman doing so is pushing it to the limits of acceptability, but acceptable. Captain America doing so is one.

Or a more extreme example, remember in Die Hard where Bruce Willis had to infilitrate the building and sneak around? Imagine if he suddenly developed the ability to force-choke terrorists. Yeah, that. You think I'm kidding, but read Eragon sometime.

Seriously, this is a bankrupt argument. You could apply it to anyone with equal veracity. It may be true (I know nothing about Deathstroke) in some specific cases, but Batman's whole schtick is "normal human who takes down super-weirdos through cunning."

It's not a bankrupt argument. It's a very (I admit) subjective and inflammatory way to claim that plot advancement doesn't conform to the laws of in-story logic.

Most arrows.

I was under the impression that catapults had a smaller vertical trajectory than arrows? I could be wrong though.

The fact that they can't is a failing of D&D. Fighters should be able to take Craft Magic Pointy Things. Problem solved.

Well... yeah. I agree. Maybe not necessarily have to physically craft their sword, but they should be able to have the story provide them a sword whenever the fuck they want, even if it's just channeling your soul into a piece of metal.

But of course, Fighters being able to craft magic swords without actually using magic is getting into the realm of Weeaboo Fightan Magic apparently. Oh, well.

Apparently our GM is a jerk and there's only One True Way to solve this dilemma. Since he's shooting down all our ideas, we break for beer until he decides to "force-feed" us the *one* solution.

Strawman.

No, it's more like trying to take down the Death Star without plans, a decent ship, or flying capabilities. Playing a DMF in a high-level world is like trying to take down Darth Vader with R2D2 when the DM gave you the option of being Luke Skywalker or Han Solo. At a certain point in the game, if you say 'hey, I want to have a career doing such and such impossible badassery' you need to put up or shut up--if you insist on playing the DMF past this point either you rely on the DM force-feeding you plot hooks or get replacement options that have little to do with your character, like piloting mecha.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Crap. That sort of thing exists in warrior myths from all over the world. Is Cu Chullain's ability to throw a spear through ten men an anime stunt, too?

Yes, actually. Along with being able to jump 20 feet into the air or survive a dragon landing on you.

I don't have a problem with it at all. I think all sword-based characters should have access to Charles Atlas Superpowers or Weeaboo Fightan Magic after a certain point.

But remember, we're trying to design a high-level game for characters who refuse to use such things because they're unthematic. So, no, you can't throw a spear through through ten men or hold up the sky with your shoulders. Only anime characters get to do that, you twink, and this is a man's game.

[Psychic Robot]

Psychic Robot, I can never tell when you're serious anymore.

I tend to assume you're not.

That's a good thing to do .

[angelfromanotherpin]

But remember, we're trying to design a high-level game for characters who refuse to use such things because they're unthematic. So, no, you can't throw a spear through through ten men or hold up the sky with your shoulders. Only anime characters get to do that, you twink, and this is a man's game.

Well that goes back to one of the good ideas 4e had (that was then horribly bungled in execution), with the Heroic tier, where even the top badasses (like Conan and Aragorn) ride horses to get around. You can even knock down most spellcasters until half of what they do is herb lore and hypnotism, and the rest is perilous.

Then the people who want to can play in that land, and the ones who want fireballs and ten-at-a-time spear-casts can play at a different level of the game.

[Psychic Robot]

^ That's actually not a horrible solution.

Too bad 4e doesn't work like that at all.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Angel, I don't mean to be rude, really I don't, but haven't you been paying attention to these boards?

D&D starts to come off of the seams for sword-based characters at around level 9 or 10. Up until then, you can make your sword-based character a useful member of the team if you min-max him to the hilt and are very familiar with the games' mechanics.

Unfortunately, rather than just be satisfied with this and retire their characters when they got into the next phase of the game, the DMFs somehow got it into their heads that it's just as appropriate to fight Great Wyrm Dragons and sentient Spheres of Annihilation the exact same way they did 15 levels ago and that adventures would conform to their lack of ability. When this obviously didn't work, they decided that the problem wasn't with their concept, but was with the setting.

The Book of 9 Swords was an attempt to rectify this at least as far as combat goes, which extremely mixed success. But people whined bitterly about Weeaboo Fightan Magic... so no Charles Atlas superpowers. Attempts to introduce the Tome Fighters to the masses were even more fruitless.

So that's why the game is in the state that it's in.

[Talisman]

It's not a bankrupt argument. It's a very (I admit) subjective and inflammatory way to claim that plot advancement doesn't conform to the laws of in-story logic.

Since you agree that it's very subjective, what say we drop it? I could just as easily argue that the GM throwing things at the party that *require* flight to solve is a plot contrivance.

The fact that they can't is a failing of D&D. Fighters should be able to take Craft Magic Pointy Things. Problem solved.

Well... yeah. I agree. Maybe not necessarily have to physically craft their sword, but they should be able to have the story provide them a sword whenever the fuck they want, even if it's just channeling your soul into a piece of metal.

But of course, Fighters being able to craft magic swords without actually using magic is getting into the realm of Weeaboo Fightan Magic apparently. Oh, well.

I disagree with this. Given that the game requires X, I don't believe having X invalidates your achetype. A fighter with a magic sword is still a fighter.

My objection to this arises when the character's gear outstrips him in coolness and power.

A fighter who uses wings of flying to reach the bad guys, then whacks them with a magic sword because it takes a magic sword to hurt them, is still cool. This is the Batman archetype.

A fighter who uses wings of flying, then throws figurines of wondrous power at the bad guy, then UMDs a wand of fireballs, then escapes with a ring of feather falling...he's not a fighter; he's a guy with a bunch of gadgets. He has done nothing that couldn't be replicated by a 1st-level commoner with Skill Focus (UMD) and a ton of cash.

Apparently our GM is a jerk and there's only One True Way to solve this dilemma. Since he's shooting down all our ideas, we break for beer until he decides to "force-feed" us the *one* solution.

Strawman.

No, it's more like trying to take down the Death Star without plans, a decent ship, or flying capabilities. Playing a DMF in a high-level world is like trying to take down Darth Vader with R2D2 when the DM gave you the option of being Luke Skywalker or Han Solo. At a certain point in the game, if you say 'hey, I want to have a career doing such and such impossible badassery' you need to put up or shut up--if you insist on playing the DMF past this point either you rely on the DM force-feeding you plot hooks or get replacement options that have little to do with your character, like piloting mecha.

Except that RPGs are, by nature, a cooperative endeavor. If I'm playing a CMF, I have a right to expect that the GM won't arbitrarily screw my character with situations where I can't contribute, then shoot down all my ideas for dealing with said situations.

It's no different from playing a necromancer wizard and fighting endless golems, or a rogue against undead and oozes and constructs, or a ranger or druid who never go near the forest, or a cleric in a campaign where there are no gods.

If the GM includes a flying gnome-tank, I have an absolute right to expect that

~My wizard buddie will help me out;
~One of my nonmagical plans will work;
~I'll find that damn pegasus I've been looking for for the last few sessions;
~Etc.

Likewise, if the GM throws a cooling-tower-sized deity with laser eyes at the party, it's either (1) a plot device, and we're supposed to wait and see what happens, or (2) something the party can theoretically defeat. In the latter case, if the CMF is useless - assuming he didn't just drop out of the sky this session - that's a failure of the GM, not the players.

One might just as well say "You're 1st level. An ancient red dragon attacks. How do you beat it?" The fact that you can't (barring truly broken Diplomancy) is the GM's fault for putting you in this situation.

Edit: Arrgh, spelling.

[angelfromanotherpin]

D&D starts to come off of the seams for sword-based characters at around level 9 or 10. Up until then, you can make your sword-based character a useful member of the team if you min-max him to the hilt and are very familiar with the games' mechanics.

Unfortunately, rather than just be satisfied with this and retire their characters when they got into the next phase of the game, the DMFs somehow got it into their heads that it's just as appropriate to fight Great Wyrm Dragons and sentient Spheres of Annihilation the exact same way they did 15 levels ago and that adventures would conform to their lack of ability. When this obviously didn't work, they decided that the problem wasn't with their concept, but was with the setting.

Right, and I'm saying 'screw them.' The source material they want to emulate is 3.x level 5. If they want to play higher than that, they have to take things that are appropriate for higher than level 5 characters. There's no option to not take those things, that's what a level system means. Otherwise you're a high-level wizard complaining that everything has true seeing now and Silent Image doesn't win fights anymore.

D&D isn't a generic system. Obviously not in setting, but also in power level. The top of the game in D&D is not the top of the game in Hyborean Age. It's not even the top of the game in Celtic Myth. The top of the game in D&D really is all the way in crazy town where you are being measured against a self-duplicating Blasphemy-spamming demon from hell whom the rules say should be a match for 64 Conans at once, and even then he wouldn't get any xp for beating them.

[Ice9]

Actually, this almost seems more like an argument about power level than about warriors specifically. The question is, should D&D stay in realm of the heroic but recognizably human for its entire level span, or should it go beyond that?

For me, the answer is - hell yes! My ideal D&D power span as you go from level 1 to 20/30 would look something like this:
Gritty -> Realistic Heroic -> Mythical Heroic -> Fvcking Demigods

But apparently for some people, it's more like:
Realistic Heroic -> Semi-Realistic Heroic -> Slightly Mythical Heroic -> Fairly Mythical Heroic

And while a warrior is pretty recognizable through Realistic Heroic and most of the way into Mythical Heroic, it's less of a distinct archetype in the realm of Demigods. Not that you can't have warrior-type Demigods, but they'll be doing stuff like splitting mountains and riding lightning - not just using the same sword-n-board they started with.

Ultimately it comes down to a preference issue. And while, IMO, having 30 levels devoted to essentially one tier of power is a waste, I can't claim it's objectively wrong.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Increasingly, I think a better way to phrase the OP's question would be, "Why the false dichotomy?" It looks like the designers believed that their only choices were to bring fighers up close to caster power level (like the Tomes) or to nerf the casters down to fighter level (like 4e). One wonders why it never occurred to them that, while they were building a new edition almost from scratch, they could have picked a midpoint between the two extremes and balanced all the classes around that point.

Of course, you are creating a new false dichotomy.

Why not do all three? It's a level-based system. There is no reason why you can't have be what 4e does for it's entire run be the low levels, have whatever midpoint you are proposing be the mid-levels and have Tome-like Fighters be the high levels.

I would say that I'd actually created a false trichotomy, but there are actually multiple possible midpoints, so there are more than even three options.

My only problem with your approach is that it tends to put artificial time limits on the campaign. What if I want to do a really long campaign? If I don't ever want to get beyond a certain level of power, I have to artificially slow leveling way down or cut off the campaign after a certain number of adventures even if the major campaign objectives aren't finished.

[shau]

I'm talking about the guy who does mundane things. he can't fly, he can't teleport and he's basically just limited to doing pretty basic physical stunts. Maybe he's really strong like Conan or he's very agile like Legolas, but you're not talking about Superman.

Here's the thing. In DnD 3e you are supposed to be able to take out a colossal animated object by level 10 or so. To do that you have to have superhuman power. Otherwise you are in a situation in which the DM has to explain how someone who is basically an ordinary person managed to take a hit from a stone fist the size of a small house, survived, and somehow retaliated for even more damage. It make no narrative sense.

Now personally, I don't care how you imagine the fighter has that power. He could be innately magical like Hercules. He could have been powered up by a wizard/magical being like Achilles. He could have really cool magical equipment like King Arthur whose scabbard was supposed to be able to heal any wound. But he has to have enough power for him to be able to go toe to toe with a stone building at level 10.

It really depends on how you handle powerful beings in your game. I mean, Xena was pretty mundane. She had a magic chakram and she fought against Ares and won. Of course there Ares didn't have super awesome superhero powers, he was just strong and a good fighter. Buffy took on Glory who was also a goddess. Buffy had super strength (maybe Conan level or a little higher but not Superhero level strength), and she was able to win. Conan killed a god in Conan the Destroyer by tearing out its horn with his bare hands. No buffs, just raw grapple power.

Again, none of these characters had flight, invisibility or shot space lasers out of their eyes and thunderbolts out of their asses. They were for the most part physically exceptional characters.

This is really the 4e solution. I am not familiar with Buffy and I thought Xena was basically Hercules with ovaries, so lets focus on Conan. Now in the Conan movie, the evil wizard summons an evil god. Then Conan destroys him with basically a headlock. It only works because evil gods go down easy, I mean really easy, in the Conan movies at least.

Personally, I find that really unconducive to role playing. There does not seem to be any real threat. So what if the heroes arrive to late to stop the evil Wytch King from summoning an evil god. We can just send two really tough guys, say Wolf and Justice from the new American Gladiators show, and they will be able to handle it no problem. It is also a problem if your players want to eventually get up to the same level as ssay Samson, and actually be able to menace a small army.

[TarkisFlux]

My only problem with your approach is that it tends to put artificial time limits on the campaign. What if I want to do a really long campaign? If I don't ever want to get beyond a certain level of power, I have to artificially slow leveling way down or cut off the campaign after a certain number of adventures even if the major campaign objectives aren't finished.

I can see what's wrong with cutting a campaign short because the characters outgrew it, but what's wrong with artificially slowing, or just flat getting rid of, xp? Or put an arbitrary level cap on your game, and don't let players advance beyond it unless they have enough xp and have completed <miscellaneous story bit>. This stuff is even suggested in the Tome series, with more variations and justification.

Seriously, I've been doing this since 3.0; the standard pace of xp in this game just moves faster than many of the stories I want to tell. Course, it helps that my players recognized the same issue and fully endorsed it...

[Username17]

I haven't seen anyone bring this up, but seriously the Mouser casts spells. That's not his main thing, but stabbing people with Scalpel isn't his main thing either.

Conan calls upon magic more than twice as well. Hell, in that setting, making iron is magic.

There aren't any characters amongst those listed who actually qualify as this stupid fucking DMF that is supposed to be such a damn sacred cow. There is one and only one character in the Lord of the Rings who is worth shit for shit who can't personally do any magic - and it's Gimli. Legolas uses magic. Aragorn uses a metric ass tonne of magic.

The Sword hero in big fantasy books always ends up looking like Rand from the Wheel of Endless Time. Always. If they get high enough level, they call upon fire storms and ghost armies.

-Username17

[Ravengm]

The Sword hero in big fantasy books always ends up looking like Rand from the Wheel of Endless Time. Always. If they get high enough level, they call upon fire storms and ghost armies.

Exactly. In order to actually become epic, you have to surpass human limits. This either means you're literally hurling a mountain at something, or you tap into the supernatural (casting spells, commanding undead, becoming incorporeal, airbending, whatever).

Fighters aren't worth crap beyond the basic levels without a little help from gear or magic, and that's okay. It's not like the Wizard (unless specifically munchkined out) will be as good at swinging the same sword with the same buffs on him.

A warrior mounted on a hippogriff is more intimidating than an enraged one charging at you anyway. And if that's the thing you're looking for in a DMF (sheer badassery), then why complain?

[Talisman]

There is one and only one character in the Lord of the Rings who is worth shit for shit who can't personally do any magic - and it's Gimli. Legolas uses magic. Aragorn uses a metric ass tonne of magic.

Examples, please? Keeping in mind that compelling the Dead Men wasn't magic - it was Aragorn's birthright, just like the throne of Gondor - and using a crystal ball hardly invalidates the CMF archetype.

Also, what about Boromir? Faramir? Eomer? Bard the Bowman? Thorin Oakenshield? Eowyn killed the frikkin Lord of the Nazgul with nothing by a mundane sword and courage.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Examples, please? Keeping in mind that compelling the Dead Men wasn't magic - it was Aragorn's birthright, just like the throne of Gondor - and using a crystal ball hardly invalidates the CMF archetype.

No, their allegiance was his birthright. Summoning their spirits to fulfill that allegiance was powerful big juju.

And magic is often subtle in Middle-Earth. When people ask Elves if their stuff is magic, the Elves look at them like they don't quite know what they mean... because everything Elven is magic, even if it's only a rope than comes when you call. They don't make the distinction.

Eowyn killed the frikkin Lord of the Nazgul with nothing by a mundane sword and courage.

The Lord of the Nazgul was defeated chiefly by Merry and his enchanted barrow-blade. Look it up.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Is it too late to change Dumbass Melee Fighter to Dumbass Muggle Fighter?

[Talisman]

Meddle not in the affairs of LotR-freaks, for they have the books right next to their computer.

Aragorn & the Dead (sounds like the name of a band):

Nonetheless he [Gimli] drew near, and saw Aragorn kneeling, while Elladan held aloft both torches. Before him were the bones of a mighty man. [description of the corpse]

Aragorn did not touch him, but after gazing silently for a while he rose and sighed. "Higher shall the flowers of simbelmyne come never unto the world's end," he murmured. "Nine mounds and seven there afre now green with grass, and through all the long years he has lain at the door that he could not unlock. Whither does it lead? Why would he pass? None shall ever know!

"For that is not my errand!" he cried, turning back and speaking to the whispering darkness behind. "Keep your hoards and your secrets hidden in the Accursed Years! Speed only we ask. Let us pass, and then come! I summon you to the Stone of Erech!"

[...]

"The Dead are following," said Legolas. "I see shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night. The Dead are following."

"Yes, the Dead ride behind. They have been summoned," said Elladan.

[...]

To that Stone the company came and halted in the dead of night. Then Elrohir gave to Aragorn a silver horn, and he blew upon it; and it seemed to those that stood near that they heard a sound of answering horns, as if it were an echo in deep caves far away. No other sound they heard, and yet they were aware of a great host gathered all about the hill on which they stood; and a chill wind like the breath of ghosts came down from the mountains. But Aragorn dismounted, and standing by the Stone he cried in a great voice:

"Oathbreakers, why have ye come?"

And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away:

"To fulfil our oath and have peace."

The Aragorn said: "The hour has come at last. Now I go to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And when all the land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart forever. For I am Elessar, Isildur's heir of Gondor."

I don't see any magic, not unless " Let us pass, and then come! I summon you to the Stone of Erech!" is a spell. It could, I suppose, be argued that the horn was a magic item...but I don't buy it. Aragorn called up the Dead by virtue of his status as Isildur's heir, the one man who could free them from their curse.

Eowyn & the Witch-King

Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul, Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Eowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw.

Still she did not blanch: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair yet terrible. A swift strole she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asuder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. Backwards she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise.

Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.

But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew of his mighty knee.

"Eowyn! Eowyn!" cried Merry. Then, tottering, struggling up, with her lasty strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty.

Knife to the knee, or sword in the face? Seems pretty obvious to me. Yes, Merry helped: he injured and distracted the Witch-King at a crucial moment; but it seems clear that it was Eowyn who formally slew him.

[Orion]

Judging by the Book of Gears, TNE won't have XP or a "standard" progression anyway.

And having the game be different at diferent levels is... almost the entire point of having levels. You should decide what level you want to play at, for a particular story, and stick with it.

I say almost because conceivably one might want a game where one kept getting more optiosn without getting more powerful options.

Maybe TNE should have two separate advancement rubrics, one for breadther and one for depth? So a 3rd levle fighter might advance into a 5th level fighter or a 3rd levle fighter/wizard gestal, depending on the DM's desires?

EDIT:

Re: Aragorn

Yes, it's the fact that they owe his family a favor that does it, not spellcasting in the strictest D&D sense. But this is LotR, where magic is bound up in people's stations and purposes.

The point is, makingt those allies wasn't "creative thinking" or a lucky break-- access to those armies is a part of who he is. I guess technically you could consider it to be an application of Diplomacy, with him the only living person against whom they start indifferent rather than hostile. But really, in D&D he'd have had a King of Gondor PrC that had Animate Dead as an (Su)

And that's the point. High-level play is about magic, and high-level heroes need magic. Some heroes chant spells and wave wands-- some channel Ki through magic swords. Some bargain with eldritch powers and use crystal balls and flying carpets. Some just run so fast they leave contact with the ground and hit so hard they can break mountains.

But if you don't personally have access to the supernatural, you aren't a high-level person.

[Ravengm]

You know, all this discussion reminds me of a D&D movie that my friend told me about....

Apparently the party was totally screwed and on the verge of a TPK, but then one of the characters turned into a Druid and saved them all.

I don't remember, but she might have been a fighter beforehand. Pretty indicative of 3.x.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Meddle not in the affairs of LotR-freaks, for they have the books right next to their computer.

Aragorn & the Dead (sounds like the name of a band):

Nonetheless he [Gimli] drew near, and saw Aragorn kneeling, while Elladan held aloft both torches. Before him were the bones of a mighty man. [description of the corpse]

Aragorn did not touch him, but after gazing silently for a while he rose and sighed. "Higher shall the flowers of simbelmyne come never unto the world's end," he murmured. "Nine mounds and seven there afre now green with grass, and through all the long years he has lain at the door that he could not unlock. Whither does it lead? Why would he pass? None shall ever know!

"For that is not my errand!" he cried, turning back and speaking to the whispering darkness behind. "Keep your hoards and your secrets hidden in the Accursed Years! Speed only we ask. Let us pass, and then come! I summon you to the Stone of Erech!"

[...]

"The Dead are following," said Legolas. "I see shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night. The Dead are following."

"Yes, the Dead ride behind. They have been summoned," said Elladan.

[...]

To that Stone the company came and halted in the dead of night. Then Elrohir gave to Aragorn a silver horn, and he blew upon it; and it seemed to those that stood near that they heard a sound of answering horns, as if it were an echo in deep caves far away. No other sound they heard, and yet they were aware of a great host gathered all about the hill on which they stood; and a chill wind like the breath of ghosts came down from the mountains. But Aragorn dismounted, and standing by the Stone he cried in a great voice:

"Oathbreakers, why have ye come?"

And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away:

"To fulfil our oath and have peace."

The Aragorn said: "The hour has come at last. Now I go to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And when all the land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart forever. For I am Elessar, Isildur's heir of Gondor."

I don't see any magic, not unless " Let us pass, and then come! I summon you to the Stone of Erech!" is a spell. It could, I suppose, be argued that the horn was a magic item...but I don't buy it. Aragorn called up the Dead by virtue of his status as Isildur's heir, the one man who could free them from their curse.

Eowyn & the Witch-King

Suddenly the great beast beat its hideous wings, and the wind of them was foul, Again it leaped into the air, and then swiftly fell down upon Eowyn, shrieking, striking with beak and claw.

Still she did not blanch: maiden of the Rohirrim, child of kings, slender but as a steel-blade, fair yet terrible. A swift strole she dealt, skilled and deadly. The outstretched neck she clove asuder, and the hewn head fell like a stone. Backwards she sprang as the huge shape crashed to ruin, vast wings outspread, crumpled on the earth; and with its fall the shadow passed away. A light fell about her, and her hair shone in the sunrise.

Out of the wreck rose the Black Rider, tall and threatening, towering above her. With a cry of hatred that stung the very ears like venom he let fall his mace. Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill.

But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew of his mighty knee.

"Eowyn! Eowyn!" cried Merry. Then, tottering, struggling up, with her lasty strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty.

Knife to the knee, or sword in the face? Seems pretty obvious to me. Yes, Merry helped: he injured and distracted the Witch-King at a crucial moment; but it seems clear that it was Eowyn who formally slew him.

Who gives a fuck about LotR anyway? No, seriously, the books and movies are plodding and slow and have a lot of stupid plot points that don't belong in a game. The setting has been beaten into zombie horse goop and popular fantasy nowadays hasn't been using many of its tropes for years. This includes D&D, since the two most popular settings of Eberron and Forgotten Realms doesn't look anything like that bullshit.

So... who gives a shit if two characters in the book got to do things? Even if you do, why should that be a standard towards how we make fantasy games?

[Orion]

Regardless, the Witch-King ain't nothing special.

Seriously. He doesn't fly (except on his mount) and he doesn't seem to have a hero-level ranged attack. Whatever he did to earn the name "witch," it's not super-relevant against leveled opposition. Honestly he's like a Wight with fighter levels. His plan for world domination is to hit people with metal sticks. The only thing that set him apart from the other Nazgul was a piddly DR 10/female.