What are your thoughts on d20 Modern?

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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Psychic Robot wrote:Personally, I think that having the ability to shoot the equivalent of rockets from one's fingertips is pretty damn awesome.
Yeah, if it was just a gun, well, you could smuggle in a gun. It's much harder to get the equivalent of a rocket launcher past a metal detector or a body search.
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Post by Voss »

Psychic Robot wrote:Personally, I think that having the ability to shoot the equivalent of rockets from one's fingertips is pretty damn awesome.
It would be, if doing damage was at all a challenge in the game system. It isn't, so it just feels like flavor text. And when you compare it to other spells that have no equivalents for the nonmagical and break the game 5 ways to sunday, it makes magic look like a cheap trick for punks.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

If you're in out-and-out combat, then spells are a letdown in terms of the damage department. Who would believe that an unarmed man could be as dangerous--if not moreso--than an elite soldier with access to the most technologically-advanced weapons of his era?

Similarly, the MacGuyver tricks aren't supposed to be used to make a tank. They're supposed to be used to make the right tool for the job.
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Post by Talisman »

I'm not going to argue with you about Profession and Repair because (1) I hadn't scrutinized the Repair rules, and (2) I don't care.

Regarding the Knowledge/Research/Computer Use skills...OTOH...you make it sound as if there are only two options: pass the check and continue, or fail the check and stop playing. That may be how you play, but it's not how I play.

d20 Modern is perhaps a poor example (and I'm not defending the overall game; just this one skill) due to the crazy level of detail they insist on, but Knowledge skills are a valuable resource for a PC to have. To use your own example of the spattered blood, let's assume the PCs have to find the clue for the adventure to progress. First, that's more of a Seacrh than a Knowledge, but if they have to find it, they'll damn well find it. I'm not ending the adventure because of a bad die-roll.

Then it's time for Knowledge (forensics) (or "earth sciences," if you rather). Depending on the roll, the info could range from:

"It's a blood spatter."
"It's a substantial amount of blood...must have been a severe wound."
"Judging by the arc of the blood, you're guessing it was a blunt instrument. Must've been swung pretty hard."
"...And this smudge here is where the body hit the floor. Looks like we're looking for a corpse, not a kidnapee."

Different levels of information based on different Knowledge results. Any one allows the game to continue, but better rolls = more information = better-prepared PCs.

Obviously the adventure must progress; that goes without saying. Knowledge checks often come down feeding the PCs clues and making things easier or harder for them.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

Talisman wrote:
Different levels of information based on different Knowledge results. Any one allows the game to continue, but better rolls = more information = better-prepared PCs.
Yeah knowledge skills tend to help most in puzzle adventures and one where the DM routinely throws monsters at them that aren't immediately identifiable, or when traps are too difficult to be disarmed by the rogue, at least not easily.

In such a case, figuring out a way to bypass an obstacle with knowledge can help you out quite a bit.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Psychic Robot wrote:If you're in out-and-out combat, then spells are a letdown in terms of the damage department. Who would believe that an unarmed man could be as dangerous--if not moreso--than an elite soldier with access to the most technologically-advanced weapons of his era?
The holy knight gets DIVINE spells, he isn't shooting fireballs. And his caster level at maximum as a 13th minimum character level is 5.

A rocket launcher is better, it is available earlier, and he doesn't do that anyway.
Psychic Robot wrote:Similarly, the MacGuyver tricks aren't supposed to be used to make a tank. They're supposed to be used to make the right tool for the job.
The A-Team, founding fathers of modern style action, say otherwise
It's some brief glimpses but there are as many as maybe three make shift armoured combat vehicles in the opening credits, and what may be a hearse with a pop up coffin turret.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

1. Well, the holy knight is crap. I was thinking of the mage.
2. The A-Team aren't d20 Modern.
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Post by Talisman »

Psychic Robot wrote:2. The A-Team aren't d20 Modern.
That's like saying "Generic Fantasy Series #27 isn't D&D."

It's technically true but misleading because you're approaching the question backwards. The A-Team predates d20 Modern, just as LotR predates D&D. However, D&D is supposed to be able to replicate the heroic fantasy genre, which includes LotR. d20 Modern is supposed to be able to replicate the action genre, which The A-Team certainly is.

It's also supposed to be able to replicate urban fantasy (such as the Dresden Files)...that's what all the magic stuff is for.

The fact is, it fails.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Psychic Robot wrote:1. Well, the holy knight is crap. I was thinking of the mage.
Mages.

Mage
The Mage is an optional advanced class from the optional FX rules appendix.

Getting into Mage requires Craft(Chemical) which enables you to build bombs (or is supposed to) and therefore makes you wonder why you need magic to explode things, it also requires Knowledge(Arcana) which is so very useful in the modern world, Research or “find the clue you knew was there” skill, and Decypher Script also known as “crap on a stick”.

It is hard to achieve ALL those skills with default occupations, but in May 2003 it was determined that Fast Hero's needed to be better in even more respects so Urban Arcana was published with an Occupation that just did that.

The Mage offers one better than good save, but its on will so it's like having all bad saves. It offers half BAB, worst hit die, good defense progression and strong reputation. You get extra skill ranks, but a crappy skill list. You gain access to the “unique” skills of concentration and spellcraft. Which do exactly what they always did and we don't care, especially since spell identification is probably going to be less of a daily occurrence.

Class Abilities
You get a VERY short list of bonus feats. One is a weapon proficiency and another is a combat feat tree entry point, and yes that's level 6, 9, 12 again... The rest are nothing special.

You get familiar (at least its fun, not great but whatever)

Scribe scroll, which now requires Craft(Writing) just to piss you off. And is way too expensive and less useful because there is no one else to give it to.

Brew Potion which has a base wealth DC BEFORE level of the potion that is way way too expensive. It uses your Craft(Chemical) that you got landed with.

Scribe Tatoo which is literally just the scribe scroll ability again, only with the Craft(Visual Arts) skill just to fuck with your head.

You get spell mastery, which just reminds you that until then you rely entirely on a spell book, in a world where presumably filling in the blank pages is harder, while the Alcolyte just gets the entire divine spell list.

Your 7th level ability is, get this, Combat casting!

Your capstone ability is Maximize spell. With a +3 spell level cost. In a world where the highest spell level you get is 5th. You see where I'm going here?

Anyway the big deal is arcane spell casting. But the best spell you ever get will be 5th level. Your best caster level will be 10th (maybe 15th with arch mage) And you are at least 3 levels behind on both spell progression and caster level and therefore on DCs, spells per day and caster level scaling effects. Your fireball will NEVER be as good as a rocket launcher since that has extra bonuses, but it won't even match on damage dice until level 13.

And the spells are not any better than standard d20. There is almost nothing new and what is is useless (someone was talking up a summon a car spell, holy crap, I got a screwdriver and a hammer, wait five minutes while I go “cast” summon car) In fact they are a somewhat shortened list all in all.

What it is supposed to do to save d20 modern
It is supposed to literally give it the magic it is missing. What it does is give it HALF the magic it is missing, about 3 or more levels too late. They just pulled the wizard class magic system out, cut it in half, chose a bunch of gimped item creation feats and a meta magic feat for you then gave it back to you 3 levels too late in your career in a world that doesn't properly support your ability to write scrolls and your desire to acquire additional spells.

And they thought it would work. And oddly enough it doesn't.

Also it does little to save the d20 modern system when it comes to functioning as you know, a system for modern games, because its a fucking wizard.

Doing it Fast
You can get into it as your 4th level by taking the Hedge Wizard occupation and the Arcane Skills feat. But like it matters. As it really doesn't matter what class you are before you waste your life being a wizard you may as well have a bigger starting defense and the other junk. With evasion one day in the distant future you might fireball your own ass, but by then you won't have a passable Ref save to support it...

Techno Mage
Techno Mage appears in the Urban Arcana splat book. So again its in the optional expansion book of the optional expansion setting and is itself an optional expansion advanced class.

Getting into it is challenging. You need ranks in computer use (a skill that does many non functional things in non functional ways that aren't even clearly described, but there are tables), knowledge (arcane lore) in a modern world, Craft (electronics) so you can make ham radio sets (inefficiently), and Repair the skill almost as good as just buying a new one.

There are any number of ways to get three of the four skills but the trick is getting electronics AND arcana in the same package. It's like they don't actually want you to be a fast hero or something. Even like they WANT you to be smart (which is what they tell you to be) fortunately both Dedicated and Charismatic have Knowledge(Arcana) and are better than smart, so, up yours smart!

Anyway. Then its worst BAB, worst hit die, good defense, poor reputation (oddly a sign the class might do something), one “good” save on Ref, more than average skill ranks, and a slightly more interesting skill list than mage (but still ultimately not great).

Class Abilities
The bonus feat list though short is still more useful than the wizard one because it has spell penetration and spell focus on it, not that that helps the whole behind on caster levels thing, but still. Also it has light armor proficiency. Which is odd, because you have arcane spell failure. Once again they feel generous enough to give you the option of taking personal fire arms proficiency at character levels 6, 9 or 12.

Your level one class ability is arcane skills. You know, like the ones you invested in to get into the dumb class, only now they are spellcraft and concentrate and make you burn even more ranks you don't want to waste if you decide to use your level 1 “ability”.

At level 2 you get Machine Empathy, which won't make the computer in Alpha Complex kill you because its just a small techy skill bonus.

At level 3 you can booby trap peoples IPods with spells. Of course the best stuff you have is Web and Glitterdust at 3 levels behind the curve, but hey. Oh, and it costs action points, because fuck, if you could do the equivalent of putting a stink bomb in their tv remote for free you'd rule the universe.

At level 4 if the wealth system is broken enough by that you can afford to shell out the significant dough you get a homunculus. Which is basically a familiar only ugly, different and expensive. If the wealth system is REALLY screwed by then you can add any amount of Hit Die onto the critter that you feel like. That is not a good thing.

At level five you get to be a sorcerer with int bonus pre selected spells. And no one even notices.

At level 7 they preselect an extra bonus feat for you. It is spell focus. The nerfed 3.5 version. They want you to be grateful, bitch.

At level 8 (character level 11) you finally get the classes defining super trait. The ability to cast spells via telepresence. Mind you it pretty much requires full telepresence and doesn't actually give you a means of telepresence and Computer use is all kinds of fucked up for that stuff. Also all targets get +4 to saves, in case your weak DCs were able to come close to effecting them at that level.

The cap stone ability at tenth level is get this, Quicken spell with a +4 to the spell level cost. And again, you get 5th level spells max. Enjoy your quickened 0 and 1st level spells, bitch.

Of course the MAIN class feature is arcane spells. Which, you guessed it, are in all ways identical to that of a regular mage. And suck for the same reasons.

What it is supposed to do to save d20 modern
The same thing the regular Mage is supposed to, it fails for the same reason.

In addition this one is rather clearly designed so you aren't allowed to be a physical class before you enter, which is odd in the same book that introduced the stuff you need to circumvent that exact same limitation for the nearly identical mage class. But it still lets you be Dedicated or Charismatic so it's still not helping with its claimed goal of being a Smart specific advanced class. Smart brings NOTHING to this class. The others don't bring anything either but are at least better in their own right and give slightly better saves/defence/hit points etc...

This class was also supposed to be the net wizard, who explicitly massively sucks at casting spells over the net so go figure?

Doing it Fast
Abuse your GM until he lets you swap the ability to craft explosives out from the Arcane Skills feat in return for the ability to actually know stuff about arcane things. It's clearly an uphill battle because OBVIOUSLY knowledge of arcane stuff is less of an arcane skill than making dynamite, but that's the only way you are getting in as a pure fast hero. (and did you know, fast heroes get Craft (mechanical) and Knowledge (pop culture) just to make you feel sad about the whole lack of a specific craft and knowledge skill thing).

The three levels of not being Fast alone make me wonder if this class is worth taking. I mean you can be almost identical to this class by being a Mage, your familiar is cheaper, your capstone metamagic is cheaper, and you don't have a failed telepresence ability taunting you for eternity AND you get to start with 3 levels of fast. Still both are so sucky I find it hard to be sure either would be the worse choice, they certainly both fail to achieve their system goals.
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Post by Koumei »

Can you text message Explosive Runes to people?
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Post by Voss »

Psychic Robot wrote: 2. The A-Team aren't d20 Modern.
... what?
Seriously, what? You've got strong guy, tactics guy, crazy guy and charisma guy and they travel around and have shoot-outs with bad guys, and do crazy improvised shit with scrap-built tanks and weird plans involving crop dusters and shit.

The A-Team is fucking exhibit A for d20 Modern, with Macguyver as exhibit B.
Last edited by Voss on Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Koumei wrote:Can you text message Explosive Runes to people?
I'd allow it only if one could have anti-Rune software on every text display digital device.

Not running your antirune?
Good luck with the weekend date, bub.
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Post by Prak »

I'm not sure texting explosive runes is a good idea... don't electronics "read" your message when it's sent?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Voss wrote:The A-Team is fucking exhibit A for d20 Modern, with Macguyver as exhibit B.
Be that as it may, the mechanics of d20 Modern don't support this. d20 Modern is much less about the "action movie" aspects of the d20 system.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Prak_Anima wrote:I'm not sure texting explosive runes is a good idea... don't electronics "read" your message when it's sent?
You mean, blow up the internets with a single Rune?

Cool.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Sounds like the work of Internet terrorists.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Koumei wrote:Can you text message Explosive Runes to people?
No, it isn't on the spells lists.

And now.

Lets consider some d20 advanced classes people didn't feel compelled to mention for various reasons.

Like if you DON'T want to be a source of bonus radiation like a Field Officer and you are following the charisma path why not try...

Personality
Personality is a Charismatic advanced class based on being a diplomat written by someone who didn't read the diplomacy skill.

Which is probably ironic(or easily mistaken for it) because you need 6 ranks of diplomacy to get into it. You also need six ranks of Perform(like a bitch) and to blow a feat on boosting your reputation.

You get worst BAB, worst hit points, average skill ranks(less than a charismatic), a crap skill list but it has social skills, worst defense progression and best reputation progression.

Class Abilities
The bonus feat list is tiny and worthless.

Your first level ability is a class level bonus to talking past guards (useful, but take class levels bitch) and the explicit and narrow ability to travel first class for the rest of your life (you will make the first class upgrade DCs, by first level of this class you already have a +19 diplomacy bonus and the worst is DC 25).

Your 2nd and 7th level abilities are any old cross class skill added as a class skill for this class. Interesting but ultimately unremarkable and very awkward for administration.

At 4th and 8th level you get a single ability which gives +4 wealth, its unclear if that is +4 each time or if they don't know what the fuck they are talking about. Its an expendable resource as a one off permanent class ability AND it helps break the wealth system at the same time, so it is stupid.

At 5th level you get your signature complex bullshit class ability “Winning Smile”.Which is the ability to make someone (out of combat) become Friendly (but probably not Helpful) if they fail a save vs 10+class level+charisma bonus. Which at this point is 20. And yeah, its probably a fifty fifty. But by this point you have a potential +24 Diplomacy bonus and making a hostile target Friendly as only a regular full round action is DC 35 for a similar fifty fifty chance ANYWAY, without the mind effecting tag. And if you had just stayed a charismatic diplomancer then by now you'd be doing the same thing on a wider range of target genders with a +34 for 100% success rate and a fifty percent chance of just jumping to helpful if you'd rather go for a better resulting effect AND you can have a similar bonus to other social skills. Also, Winning Smile has a limited1 minute duration with encouragement for victims to take revenge!

The tenth level ability runs off the same will DC as winning smile, has a 1d4+1 round duration, can only effect ONE target, who can only be an NPC, and either applies a -2 penalty to all rolls, a +2 penalty to all rolls, or level 1 barbarian rage. And you stand their shaking your head asking WHY? WHY!?

What it is supposed to do to save D20 Modern
It's supposed to be where Diplomancers go some time after their 3rd through 10th level of Charismatic.

What it actually is is. Isn't that. Infact, it doesn't really DO anything.

Doing it Fast
You can enter this as a Fast character without trying. But why would you? If you WANT to add inferior attributes and notable diplomancer powers to a Fast hero you can just add levels of Charismatic and be strictly supperior.

You can just STAY FAST and take diplomacy ranks and be pretty damn comparable (or maybe even better)!

Anyway. If you thought the “good” advanced classes people were recommending were bad, how bad was THAT?


And now since we haven't tried one yet, lets look at a random Tough type advanced class.
Dreadnought
Dreadnought is from the trans dimensional evil entity known as d20 Future, it's supposed to be some sort of super tough space marine or something. Though its a bit uncertain about what it's doing.

Entry requires six ranks in Intimidate (no problem, but why didn't you just SAY level 3) Improved damage threshold (which is a bit sad as a feat choice that early but not entirely terrible in itself). And 2 Tough talents, which either means you are a Tough hero OR it means you were anybody at all who wasted their only remaining feat at level 3 (other than Improved Damage Threshold and Personal Fire Arms Proficiency, or even a melee proficiency considering where the class goes) on that dumb feat that gives you 2 Tough talents. I suggest you cheat and don't let on to the GM about the stupid bitch slap “must be from separate talent trees” limitation but even if you do the difference is so small it doesn't matter, you just burnt your feat to get into the class really.

You get whopping great d12 hit die, fast hero BAB, bad defense progression, bad reputation, worst skill points, a tiny skill list, and better than good fortitude. You also got regular good Will but we still don't care.

Class Abilities
You get a god damn gigantic list of bonus feats jam packed with melee, ranged, armor and other interesting feats. You will use ALL three of your bonus feats on something productive no matter what direction you take this character. They should have just written “All” in the place of the bonus feat list. Now why this guy gets this when the Personality ant others get a lists of about 6 skill bonus feats no one knows. Maybe they feel bad about making you burn feats to get into this one.

At first level you get THREE abilities. Immunity to fear effects (good but it devalues my already devalued better will save), Stability for +4 vs trip and friends (probably good since as far as I can tell tripping and bullrushing and such is intended to be a major pass time in d20 modern), and Unhindered for 2 less armor penalty (which can't possibly hurt)

At level two you get TWO abilities, one of which is an overrun bonus immediately adding to my suspicion they want you to do that sort of stuff a whole lot. The otherone is super barbarian rage with a class level rounds duration and +8 strength (-2 defense, fatigued after wards, etc...) That's once per day now, twice at 5th and three times at 8th. That is... a remarkably big bonus. I mean you could use that for something.

At four you get a +2 bonus to defense while wearing armor AND fighting defensively. And you it gets to +4 then +6 later. That's, a lot. And your strength boost can cancel the defensive penalty right out, and you don't even NEED armor proficiency (which you could have by this point if you wanted) what with the armor penalty reduction and the low armor penalty medium/heavy/powered suits d20 future offers.

At five you knock things down when they fail a fortitude save vs the melee damage you just dealt them. That's, not bad for a d20 modern ability. And you might be dealing a bucket load of damage by this point (like maybe 3d6+13) Mind you they will ALSO be making fort saves or dying, but if they live then HAHA! Bring on improved trip and do it again! (well maybe, the wording is screwed up in d20 modern, but whatever, hit them when they stand up or something!)

You latest new ability is at 8 when you can count weapon sizes as one lower for single handed use or counting as a light off hand weapon. Though that doesn't play as nicely with giant strength and the knock down thing it DOES play nicely with two weapon fighting and squeezing out multiple attacks in a game where AC is often a touch low.

What it is supposed to do to save D20 Modern
It's supposed to be a space marine or something. And to make the tough class good.

It actually isn't a (very) bad class, and probably a better strong hit things with sword archetype than the “good” ones offered up by others. Despite mighty powers it still probably doesn't match the genuine d20 difficulty curve you would prefer it to (it is a melee warrior) but it isn't typical d20 modern BAD either. You could put this in a game with a barbarian or fighter and it wouldn't be that much different to them. We know that isn't enough, but its better than being WORSE than them.

Better yet this class offers one or two slightly diverse abilities, you could go different directions with it and it would still work pretty well. If everyone in the party was a Shadow Slayer the world is a sad and dull place, but if everyone in the party is a Dreadnought, well, look its still sad but probably a little less dull.

Doing it Fast
You can, and probably SHOULD enter this class from Fast (or whatever you like, but I'd go Fast, MAYBE Strong if I felt like not being as good). Fast brings real benefits to this guy, like a nice defense boost, some good skill ranks before you lose them forever, Evasion and Uncanny dodge. You could MIX Fast and Dreadnought levels beyond entry and it could work.

Anyway I actually kind of like dreadnought. It still has class level based bullshit, it still sucks, it still has annoying painful entry requirements (and ongoing potentially painful requirements like semi required investment in two weapon fighting and armor proficiencies). But its better and more versatile than most. So hurrah for dreadnought. I say use this one to hit things with sticks with! You could even fit it into true modern genre with less depressing genre perversion than the magic swording guys.

But ultimately it's still laced with stupid.
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Post by Voss »

Psychic Robot wrote:
Voss wrote:The A-Team is fucking exhibit A for d20 Modern, with Macguyver as exhibit B.
Be that as it may, the mechanics of d20 Modern don't support this.
Then it fails utterly.
d20 Modern is much less about the "action movie" aspects of the d20 system.
... what is it about, then? And, what aspects does d20 have other than 'action'?
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

I really can't think of a single campaign idea that I'd want to run with d20 modern. At all.

The system is just horrible.

There's only one way you'll make that system look halfway playable, and that's if you line it up next to Monte Cook's World of Darkness.
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Voss wrote:Then it fails utterly.

... what is it about, then? And, what aspects does d20 have other than 'action'?
It is, in a sense, mimicking a mortals game in World of Darkness. However, World of Darkness does it much better, I fear.
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Post by Orion »

Upon reviewing the system (which I loved so goddamn much when I was 14)

I confess that Robot is right in the grand scheme. D20 Modern is not a good system, and there's no reason to look at it in place of shadowrun or spycraft. I still think it's better than D&D 3.5.

Regardless of the systems other flaws, I think spelcasting is is a pretty good place in D20 Modern.

Holy Knight spells suck in combat, of course. But are you telling me you can't see the value in Animate Dead, Water Breathing, Secret Pocket, Locate Object, Dispel Magic? At lower levels, Spider Climb, Zone of Truth, Shield Other, Shatter? Comprehend Languags?

Some Cool Arcane Spells:

1 Comprehend Language, Change Self, Mask Metal
2 Invisibility, See Invisibility, Spider Climb
3 Haste, Phantom Chopper, Tongues
4 Wirewalk (teleport, over phone connection-- cell phones OK), Scrying, Animate Dead
5 Wall of Force, Phantom Projectiles (think waithstrike!), Telekinesis

There are also several usable buffs. Damage spells are also good in the occasional situation where you know ahead of time you'll be without weapons.

What more do you want?
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Post by Orion »

Oh, and you don't use the Technomage power to make traps, you use it to make "potions".
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Post by Talisman »

Boolean wrote:...I still think it's better than D&D 3.5.
:rofl:

3.5 may have the hapless bard and fighter, but at least there are classes that can do things.
Last edited by Talisman on Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Psychic Robot
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Post by Psychic Robot »

Well, the d20 Modern design is that everyone is pretty bad at things, so it's balanced. In a sense. Because you're all playing fairly normal people.
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Koumei
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Post by Koumei »

Psychic Robot wrote:Well, the d20 Modern design is that everyone is pretty bad at things, so it's balanced.
Gee, that reminds me of something else WotC churned out recently...
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