What are your thoughts on d20 Modern?

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PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

I think spelcasting is is a pretty good place in D20 Modern.
Before you even consider that possibility you need to consider that about 90% of modern settings and adventures have either no place for spell casting or no place for D&D style spell casting classes.
Holy Knight spells suck in combat, of course. But are you telling me you can't see the value in...
No I can't in a modern setting almost all of those things should be done by something modern flavoured instead (or at least as well as) in d20 modern they mostly are, though often very poorly. Mind you some of those effects are pretty crap.

Now I'm not saying the following alternatives are always (or even often) Better, or even Good at all. But you pay a lot less for them and get them a lot sooner compared to the wait and investment required to get spells Also they are more appropriate to provide support for a modern game.

Animate Dead
Hire some security or street thugs. Cheap undead are weak, out of Genre and society hates them more.

Water Breathing
Buy an aqua lung. Or even a snorkel.

Secret Pocket
Get an actual secret pocket. Use sleight of hand.

Locate Object
Remote tracking device. And Locate Object is really badly written and a totally arbitrary RC angering spoiler.

Dispel Magic?
What Magic? Also, Disable Device.

Spider Climb
Regular climb. Magnetic boots. Grappling guns. Depends how James Bond your adventure is.

Zone of Truth
Should go away. But in the meantime. Sense Motive.

Shield Other
Just make them be Fast and leave them on their own. Alternately they should just take cover behind you or you should lay down covering fire and that should mean something.

Shatter
Hit it with a stick, shoot it with a gun, plant some explosives.

Comprehend Languages
Wasn't that supposed to be the smart hero's thing with the Linguist talent? At first level even?

Change Self
Disguise

Mask Metal
Sleight of hand, gadgets and alternate weapons.

Invisibility
Hide

See Invisibility
Spot

Haste
Being a Fast hero

Phantom Chopper
An actual chopper

Tongues
Handle Animal, Sense Motive, Linguist and something a charismatic or dedicated hero should be just doing.

Wirewalk
Kinda stupid, sort of thing that should really be specific to only narrow settings and adventures.

Scrying
Telepresence and surveillance should work better than it actually does and thus make this spell redundant.

Wall of Force
If it's setting appropriate to have force fields you should just have force fields.

Phantom Projectiles (think waithstrike!)
Magic bullets (if its magic hunter adventure time) or AP/XP etc... ammo if it isn't.

Telekinesis
Sleight of hand, Extreme Effort, and super spy magnets.
There are also several usable buffs.

Hate 'em
Damage spells are also good in the occasional situation where you know ahead of time you'll be without weapons.
Plan to smuggle other weapons, build them out of soup cans, take them from your victims, just be cool without them.
What more do you want?
Modern flavoured alternatives that function and spells that are actually appropriately matched rather than a total hit/total miss roulette.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
name_here
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Post by name_here »

You left out perhaps the best spell.

EMP, though it may have another name, but either way it's an AoE kill electronics dead.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

So like an EMP Grenade then. It's so sad they made that a spell in d20 modern.

I mean its also a grenade, but still.
name_here
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Post by name_here »

it's a progress level 6 grenade, though, and you aren't supposed to have magic in the same game as progress level 6.

Not that you can't do it anyway, mind.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

I just find the flavour rather cheap and poor quality.

See an EMP grenade either modern or futuristic works.

And even an EMP effect if you are "lightning wizard guy" because you actually do electro magnetic as a cool theme and you are already fricking Magneto.

But EMP along side things like Sleep and Web? A generic "turn off technology" spell would leave a better taste in my mouth than "Amongst my many totally themeless tricks, I also have a spell that is an EMP grenade"
name_here
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Post by name_here »

that's called shutdown. 15 foot radius, all electronic systems in it do not function for the duration, though it doesn't interrupt power to outside the radius. even if cast on a generator system, which is frankly stupid.
DSMatticus wrote:It's not just that everything you say is stupid, but that they are Gordian knots of stupid that leave me completely bewildered as to where to even begin. After hearing you speak Alexander the Great would stab you and triumphantly declare the puzzle solved.
The 13 Wise Buttlords
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Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

PhoneLobster, I can't believe you said that the Holy Knight sucks at combat.

Yes, relative to monsters, he sucks because the monsters are the same as in D&D and the characters are not, but he's head and shoulders above his friends.

For one, he smites with the same action point as its normal use, which is already golden depending on how you've progressed through the campaign.

Two, and more importantly, is his Inflict Hands. If you have charisma high enough and took some unarmed combat feats and the appropriate critical hit feats, the damage can get very, very large; large enough to punch way above your CR. And it only goes up from there.
PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:PhoneLobster, I can't believe you said that the Holy Knight sucks at combat.

Yes, relative to monsters, he sucks because the monsters are the same as in D&D and the characters are not,
Therefore, he sucks at combat.
The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:but he's head and shoulders above his friends.
Is he?

Lets remember his first level of knight is his NINTH character level at the earliest by being a Strong class bitch. That is a lot of levels of friends to be head and shoulders above.
The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:For one, he smites with the same action point as its normal use,
Action point dependant ability, therefore weaker than many alternatives.

Then it only works on Good/Evil targets, a limitation few other classes suffer for their abilities.

And then it only works in melee. Which is a bastard.

And it runs in part of charisma. He is a Ninth Level strong bitch (Or rather, get this an ELEVENTH level strong bitch by the time he gets smite)
Up until his divine grace at 9th character level he has never ever done anything with charisma for his entire 3 skill ranks a level physical class skill list career.

Now at ELEVENTH character level a MAGE is casting up to 4th level spells. Now those SUCK but they run off an attrubute you have always benefitted from ESPECIALLY since 4th character level and they include Hold Person( 3.0 version I think), Haste (3.0 version I think?), Fear, Confusion, Phantasmal Killer, etc...

An ELEVENTH character level strong bitch who took your own other advice and played as a shadow slayer and stuck with it for the last three levels instead of switching out to knight just got FAST healing. And is three levels closer to the juggling ability you entered the class for anyway.

Now if you shunned shadow slayer as a one trick buffy rip off with nothing until fast healing and fucking endless juggling capstone power and took say the completely randomly selected Tough advanced class I reviewed called Dreadnaught.

And you stuck with THAT for three extra levels your limited to melee attack bonus is a +8 strength bonus and all the damage and attack bonus that entails (and stacks with strength, which you used since level 1) and taking the three extra levels of the class means you now use it one extra time per day and every time you use it it lasts 3 extra rounds. AND you just earned the ability to dual wield great swords and rocket launchers.
The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote: which is already golden depending on how you've progressed through the campaign.
That statement pretty much refutes itself.
The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote: Two, and more importantly, is his Inflict Hands. If you have charisma high enough and took some unarmed combat feats and the appropriate critical hit feats, the damage can get very, very large; large enough to punch way above your CR. And it only goes up from there.
At that point you are a level 12 character. If you are LUCKY you have one +24 damage MELEE hit per day. If you invested 16 or 18 in charisma I'm going to smack you about for sucking for so many levels before now as a result.

You know what? I'm unimpressed, even the dreadnaughts +4-6 to ALL melee damage out damages that, even with an impressive 48 I'm pretty much unimpressed considering you took code of conduct as a drawback and lost out on all the other cool abilities AND invested a fucking 18 on charisma for a strength based melee character.

And now the mage is casting 5th level spells, and the shadow slayer is ONE level off the juggles.

And if you really want to invest in high charisma a straight 10 levels of Charismatic Hero +2 levels of some desperate attempt not to suck will give you a +42 or something to diplomacy checks.

Even the sucky charisma advanced class I covered does more exciting stuff with charisma by this level, and it basically just does an inferior version of using the diplomacy skill.

And after ALL OF THAT with holy knight you have a very specific and narrow melee centric FANTASY class with strict and crippling story requirements that does nothing for D20Modern

Now you can argue "but wait, I can add holy knight levels AFTER filling out my bullshit shadow juggler or weirdo dreadnaught barbarian classes" To which I say bullcrap. Because that makes you an at least 14th probably 15th level d20 modern character, a bad and unlikely thing in itself and even then you'd be still be just as better off taking levels of well, something else.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
The 13 Wise Buttlords
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Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

Therefore, he sucks at combat.
Chill, dude, doing anything cool with d20 Modern is like trying to build the Sistine chapel with a wooden mallet. It's just that some of the mallets have termites in them and some are made of oak.
Is he?

Lets remember his first level of knight is his NINTH character level at the earliest by being a Strong class bitch. That is a lot of levels of friends to be head and shoulders above.
No one takes Strong Hero levels though unless they can accurately judge the exact level the campaign will end.
Action point dependant ability, therefore weaker than many alternatives.

Then it only works on Good/Evil targets, a limitation few other classes suffer for their abilities.

And then it only works in melee. Which is a bastard.
That's not a problem for the Holy Knight, since he's just going to use it with his 'kill one Mob really hard once a day' power.
At that point you are a level 12 character. If you are LUCKY you have one +24 damage MELEE hit per day. If you invested 16 or 18 in charisma I'm going to smack you about for sucking for so many levels before now as a result.
Obviously you didn't read any of my points about the real strength of the Holy Knight being in its 'inflict damage by touch' power.

It can get very, very large. It's not a +24 damage per day, it's a +200 per day when you first get it if you twink your stats out right. THAT is punching way above your weight class.
And after ALL OF THAT with holy knight you have a very specific and narrow melee centric FANTASY class with strict and crippling story requirements that does nothing for D20Modern
Specific? Holy Knight has one of the most weaksauce alignment requirements ever. Allegiances in this game are extremely weak. All you have to do is align yourself with the forces of good or evil. Hell, even if you jump off of the slippery slope you can add or erase two letters from your character sheet and keep all of your powers.
PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:Chill, dude, doing anything cool with d20 Modern is like trying to build the Sistine chapel with a wooden mallet. It's just that some of the mallets have termites in them and some are made of oak.
You may not have noticed, but like "yes he sucks at fighting monsters" that isn't actually an argument for a d20modern character class not sucking at combat.
No one takes Strong Hero levels though unless they can accurately judge the exact level the campaign will end.
Sooo, then you want to compare him against an extra level worth of rival character since he enters one level later as a fast hero?

The Dreadnaught, Mage and diplomancer Charismatic hero examples all get one extra level ahead of him on all comparisons, congratulations.
That's not a problem for the Holy Knight, since he's just going to use it with his 'kill one Mob really hard once a day' power.
Still action point dependent, action points still suck, other characters don't burn them for abilities,
Obviously you didn't read any of my points about the real strength of the Holy Knight being in its 'inflict damage by touch' power.
Obviously you didn't read any of my points that that is total bullshit as a playable character build.

Also let me point out I said extra melee damage because it IS melee damage. Melee touch OR added directly to regular melee.

Level 14 (if not higher). That's what character level you are telling me you are when you get that ability you say you have maximised your character around.

+24? That's what I'm telling you you are getting when you build a character that has actually been doing anything between levels 1 and 13. At the outside you cast ability enhancement on the character and rack up +48 at the cost of a spell slot for a measly 24 extra damage.
, it's a +200 per day when you first get it if you twink your stats out right. THAT is punching way above your weight class.
If you blow an EIGHTEEN on charisma on a character that is a strength based melee character for THIRTEEN LEVELS. Then you blow ALL your level advancement boosts on charisma you are at 21 charisma. Then if you blow one of your two second level spell slots on it (I say 2 because I'm not giving you 14 wisdom as well, be glad you got the 12 you needed to cast 2nd level spells at all you 18 cha melee expert...) THEN you go to 26 Cha for about 4 minutes a day, 8 if you blow both on it.

And that is as generous as I get. It's d20modern bitch, no stat enhancement items or wishes and bullshit for you.

Anyway THEN as long as it is within that time limit you deal up to about 112 damage per day to add to your melee or as a direct touch.

Let's remember again 80+ of that damage cost you an extra action/pre combat preparation and one of your highest level spell slots. Crappy d20modern Wizards are casting force wall and hold monster with that sort bullshit and you get 80 damage, if you can hit in melee and you don't get code of conduct screwed.

That's nice, but you just bent your playability into a pretzel made of stupid to achieve it. And I still don't care. Because you know what? 112, that's big for d20 modern, you know what else is big for d20 modern? +40something diplomacy, 5th level spells, 29 strength, a rocket launcher in each hand, 40+ Defence, no save monster juggling.

Those are all rather weak for 14+level d20 and they are all available at or before that level in the examples I've already discussed on this thread. And they all make 112 (highly conditional) damage look kind of bad when you realise that at least half those things actually had remotely playable builds walking into 14th level and get to do that shit all day or at least several times more than once.

And there is an additional bitter pill beyond just 13 levels of suck hidden in the pretzel in the form of...
Specific? Holy Knight has one of the most weaksauce alignment requirements ever. Allegiances in this game are extremely weak.
You have the code of conduct. We can pretend you don't because it doesn't say in giant flaming letters "code of conduct" but you are a paladin, it's d20 and everyone messing with it has paladin burnt into their hind brain, and we know what that means and GMs will feel compelled to screw you.

Sound like I'm talking out my ass? Text isn't there? Well, text to remind GMs to screw you for being a paladin is there, like this little gem embedded deep in the anus of the ability you tout as the be all and end all of a build that doesn't even enter the game till level 14.
D20Modern wrote:Use of this ability may be guided by the Holy/Unholy Knight’s allegiance, and widespread abuse may cause the Holy/Unholy Knight to lose his chosen allegiance. See Sidebar "Hints On How GMs should screw paladins, I mean holy knights, for using this ability against non alignment enemies or just if the GM gets annoyed with this ability"
All you have to do is align yourself with the forces of good or evil. Hell, even if you jump off of the slippery slope you can add or erase two letters from your character sheet and keep all of your powers.
Nice, but how many times is your GM going to let you do that? And do you think for a second that in any kind of game where your ability to actually use significant bonuses against a large majority of your enemies because they have the "Evil" alignment that there won't be significant undesirable repercussions from slipping to the evil alignment?

And lets not forget, that that is just an OPTION the text presents to the GM, the FIRST option it presents is...
D20Modern wrote:A Holy/Unholy Knight who loses his chosen allegiance, intentionally or not, loses all Holy/Unholy Knight special abilities, including the ability to cast divine spells. He may no longer progress in levels of Holy/Unholy Knight, but can regain use of those abilities if he atones for his actions. The GM should shriek "Code Of Conduct, BITCH" while smacking your bare ass with a paddle as he applies this rule.
So ultimately I'm not seeing where the all the vague and permissive is. And frankly without some pretty hefty alignment issues the class becomes even more problematic as you will never get to apply half its bonuses and you never know when the GM is going to strip you of your abilities for using your inflict on some guy who doesn't have your opposed alignment because you live in a setting where good vs evil doesn't happen much.
The 13 Wise Buttlords
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Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

Sooo, then you want to compare him against an extra level worth of rival character since he enters one level later as a fast hero?

The Dreadnaught, Mage and diplomancer Charismatic hero examples all get one extra level ahead of him on all comparisons, congratulations.
The Holy Knight isn't being compared to these classes however. They use charisma and can make almost as good of a diplomancer as a Charismatic hero because of their gay little buff spells.

112 damage? You're counting out the Holy Knight way too much, PhoneLobster.

Anyway, obviously, all Holy Knights want these two feats:
d20 Modern SRD wrote:Supernatural Strike
You may score critical hits against creatures that are normally unaffected by critical hits.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +2 or better.

Benefit: When you roll a threat against a creature normally unaffected by critical hits (such as a construct, ooze, or undead), you may check for a critical hit and deal the increased damage if the threat is confirmed. Creatures unaffected by massive damage are still unaffected by massive damage resulting from a critical hit. This is a supernatural ability.
d20 modern SRD wrote:Power Crit
You may threaten a critical hit if you succeed in hitting an opponent.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +10, proficiency with weapon.

Benefit: You may spend an action point before making an attack with a weapon with which you are proficient. If the attack hits, it automatically threatens a critical hit (regardless of whether the attack roll falls within the weapon’s actual threat range). You must roll to confirm the critical hit, as normal. This is a supernatural ability.

Normal: You must roll in the threat range of a weapon, then confirm that threat to score a critical hit.
The smiting, obviously, is to help land the attack. That's why it's so important. You also take the combat martial arts chain to increase the crit multiplier.
PhoneLobster wrote:That's nice, but you just bent your playability into a pretzel made of stupid to achieve it. And I still don't care. Because you know what? 112, that's big for d20 modern, you know what else is big for d20 modern? +40something diplomacy, 5th level spells, 29 strength, a rocket launcher in each hand, 40+ Defence, no save monster juggling.
Except for the no-save monster juggling, who gives a crap? Note that the Holy Knight build doesn't have to have martial artist levels; you can have Shadow Slayer abilities. I just picked a class with full BAB, that's the important part. Shadow Slayer technically comes from a different campaign from Urban Arcana, so it might not be available.

In d20 modern, if you're a PC you either push a monster in a tactical corner where they can't fight back or you kill it fast as possible.

Monsters are always better than you and you will LOSE a war of attrition. Having a +5 attack/+5 damage bonus and making the monster miss half of its melee attacks, unless you're a gunslinger on the stairs and the monster is a living dumpster means crap in the long run.

So yes, even though the Holy Knight is a 1/day melee dumbass it doesn't matter, because non-ritual spells always suck and monsters will wreck your ass. This is the ONLY other way to fight monsters in this game, otherwise you're dead meat.
PhoneLobster wrote:So ultimately I'm not seeing where the all the vague and permissive is. And frankly without some pretty hefty alignment issues the class becomes even more problematic as you will never get to apply half its bonuses and you never know when the GM is going to strip you of your abilities for using your inflict on some guy who doesn't have your opposed alignment because you live in a setting where good vs evil doesn't happen much.
PhoneLobster wrote:Sound like I'm talking out my ass? Text isn't there? Well, text to remind GMs to screw you for being a paladin is there, like this little gem embedded deep in the anus of the ability you tout as the be all and end all of a build that doesn't even enter the game till level 14.
Yeah, it does sound like you're completely talking out of your ass.

???

d20 Modern alignment isn't anything like D&D. There's no fucking code of conduct, in case you didn't notice. All you do is maintain your allegiance to good or evil. It's not like D&D where if you lie or use poison your abilities go poof. You do what heroes do normally--and if you have to stab babies for some reason, you switch over.

From the d20 SRD, here's what it says on the Holy Knight alignment:
Former Knights: A Holy/Unholy Knight who loses his chosen allegiance, intentionally or not, loses all Holy/Unholy Knight special abilities, including the ability to cast divine spells. He may no longer progress in levels of Holy/Unholy Knight, but can regain use of those abilities if he atones for his actions.

The Holy/Unholy Knight may switch sides entirely, taking its former opposed allegiance. In this case, none of the Knight’s abilities are lost, and the Knight merely changes his designation from Holy to Unholy (being a Fallen Knight) or Unholy to Holy (being a Redeemed Knight). Such a switch of allegiance is dramatic, such that the Fallen/Redeemed Knight automatically kicks off the sense allegiance ability for Knights of its now-opposed allegiance.
And here's what it says on allegiances:
d20 modern SRD wrote:http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org ... ances.html

Moral Philosophy: This describes one’s attitude toward others, as represented by good and evil. An individual with a good allegiance tends to protect innocent life. This belief implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of other creatures. An evil allegiance shows a willingness to hurt, oppress, and kill others, and to debase or destroy innocent life.
Do you see anything about code of conduct or whatever bullshit D&D enforces on you? No. Claiming that a Holy Knight runs anymore than a negligible risk of having his abilities yanked out of him is suspect, and even if you do:

1) There's no penalty or even inconvenience for switching to Unholy Knight.

2) There are variant Holy Knights in the book anyway. You can be a damn Knight of the Forest or Knight of Law if you want to.


Finally, while I admit that this build is a little gimped compared to a completely min-maxxed build at levels prior to 14, it's really not all that much. You put at least a 14 charisma and in the meantime play as a diplomancer/Field Officer or Martial Artist or Shadow Slayer or whatever, then you end up ahead.

Also, you're way overvaluing the Shadow Slayer's 'stun shadow' ability. It's great and all, but you really want the ability to stunlock something? Invest in martial arts and inflict subdual damage. Subdual damage is much better than lethal damage after a certain breakpoint anyway; you hit them once over their subdual threshold and they can't do anything until you let them go. This includes friggin' ancient wyrms.

Finally, you're also overstating the reliance on action points. The Holy Knight's smiting ability is great not because you'll rely on it, but because it adds a very big bonus to what you want to do anyway--in this case, when it's crunch time he'll be adding at least 36 extra points of damage on a strike. If you're using your fists then this is pretty much a guaranteed stun lock.

But anyway, it's just there to show you that a Holy Knight has a >75% chance to punch an adult dragon so hard that he dies in one hit when he enters this class. He obviously doesn't have to smite or power crit, because his fists do so much subdual damage anyway that he doesn't give a rat's ass. But if he needs to floor the Big Bad in one strike, he can. The most he'll need is to use his heroic surge to drink a potion or potion or what the fuck ever to give himself a +5 charisma boost.


...

Finally, dual-wielding rocket launchers is crap.

1) You have to extend the tube before using it. That takes a move action. Explain to me how you're supposed to do this while dual-wielding.

2) You have to be at LEAST 30 feet away from your foe. Otherwise it won't work at ALL. That's bullshit.

3) You have to reload after every shot, which takes a move action. Explain to me how you're supposed to do this while dual-wielding them.

4) It has a military restriction on buying ammo for it. You were complaining about the Holy Knight's abilities getting arbitrarily taken away, trust me, this is much worse and will come into play more often.

5) Biggest problem, it has a DC 18 Reflex save for half. Again, bullshit. Your precious rocket launches, after clearing all of the above hurdles, will easily and often be doing ~17 damage BASE against a lot of targets after a certain threshold.

So, pick another character concept. I recommend dual-wielding firearms if you have to get your ranged attack on. They'll do more damage at higher levels and don't have all this action bullshit to dual with.
Last edited by The 13 Wise Buttlords on Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The 13 Wise Buttlords
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Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

Finally, I'm really puzzled as to why you tout the diplomancer as a character build but are so down on the Field Officer.

The Field Officer is flat-out superior to the Charismatic hero in everything. Commanding presence opposes a monster's level check against their DC check; use it twice on a monster and they're afraid for the duration of combat.

When paired up with a buddy, who could damn well be the real diplomancer, they generate gigantic diplomacy (or anything) checks. Like, their charisma + reputation bonuses. If for some reason they need an even BIGGER bonus they can use a damn action point on the buddy and get their own benefit.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

d20 Modern alignment isn't anything like D&D. There's no fucking code of conduct, in case you didn't notice. All you do is maintain your allegiance to good or evil.
In case you didn't notice that IS a code of conduct.

You are told to follow it or else the GM is encouraged multiple times to take away your class abilities.

You don't see the words code of conduct so you quote the fucking text that says "GMs are encouraged to take away your class abilities if they want" like it wasn't even there.

Finally, while I admit that this build is a little gimped compared to a completely min-maxxed build at levels prior to 14, it's really not all that much. You put at least a 14 charisma
You mumble on about god damn CRIT MULTIPLIER feats for ages like anyone cares about those for any reason. Then this?

You give the same 14 charisma I assumed originally that delivers a whopping +24 damage and declare it to be "way over 200!"

WTF? Charisma bonuses are few and far between in d20 modern. You are pulling charisma out of your ass.
Also, you're way overvaluing the Shadow Slayer's 'stun shadow' ability.
I'm talking about it because its a class I already covered. And its stun lock, being a capstone ability means a character desiring it delays holy knight levels for at least an additional 4 or 5 character levels, if not forever.

And stunlocks dwarf the ability to gimp your character for its entire playable career to one day get one big damaging hit, maybe, that the GM is outright encouraged to deprive you of at whim.
But anyway, it's just there to show you that a Holy Knight has a >75% chance to punch an adult dragon so hard that he dies in one hit when he enters this class.
When he enters his class the holy knight gets divine grace. That is oddly, not the ability to kill dragons 75% of the time. When he is more than half way through his class levels THEN he gets a hit enhancer, when he is one level off maxing out the class THEN he gets the "big damage" you are wetting yourself over.

If a bunch of crit feats and some other class abilities are what you are talking about for the dragon punch at class entry... THOSE AREN'T HOLY KNIGHT ABILITIES DUMBASS.

Touting such abilities just goes to show there are better classes to invest your resources in.
Finally, dual-wielding rocket launchers is crap.

1) You have to extend the tube before using it.

2) You have to be at LEAST 30 feet away from your foe.

3) You have to reload after every shot, which takes a move action. Explain to me how you're supposed to do this while dual-wielding them.

4) It has a military restriction on buying ammo for it.

5) Biggest problem, it has a DC 18 Reflex save for half.
Dual wielding rocket launchers gets mentioned for being COOL. But despite that.

1) You have to cast a buff spell before using your holy knight fantasy build. So, touché.
2) You have to be at MOST 5 feet away from your foe.
3) Who bothers reloading? You certainly don't with your no way at all to refill your limited damage bonus pool until tomorrow.
4) He can take my ammo, he cannot take my class abilities.
5) Done care, always hits, looks cool, gets more where that came from, and in no way cripples my character's ability to do EVERYTHING else.
Finally, I'm really puzzled as to why you tout the diplomancer as a character build but are so down on the Field Officer.

The Field Officer is flat-out superior to the Charismatic hero in everything. Commanding presence opposes a monster's level check against their DC check; use it twice on a monster and they're afraid for the duration of combat.
Have you actually read my reviews?

The charismatic hero gets +20 more on diplomacy. And gets huge diplomacy bonuses from an early level. He does SOMETHING and does it well for a long time.

The field officer exists to never ever take an action of his own and just stand there like an idiot with a target painted on his chest. The ability to make everyone else uber good but never ever take an action of your own is a BAD ability in an RPG where you get to play as ONE character.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The 13 Wise Buttlords
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Post by The 13 Wise Buttlords »

You mumble on about god damn CRIT MULTIPLIER feats for ages like anyone cares about those for any reason. Then this?

You give the same 14 charisma I assumed originally that delivers a whopping +24 damage and declare it to be "way over 200!"

WTF? Charisma bonuses are few and far between in d20 modern. You are pulling charisma out of your ass.
I'm going with the standard point buy array, which is ass and creates gimped characters, but I have a bare minimum for these theoretical situations at least. The 14 goes into charisma. You put one stat raise into charisma later. So like you mentioned, when you first get the ability, it 'appears' that you only get 24 points of damage to play with. But you're using Power Crit, so it starts at 72 damage and can go way, way up. For example, a 20 charisma level 20 holy knight (how to get your buff on is explained below) can dish out 300 hp of damage with their trick before we throw on expansion options.

Does it temporarily gimp you? Yes, it does and doesn't start giving benefits until level 9 at least, which is why I won't recommend Holy Knight for most campaigns. But if you're starting from at least level 12 or 13 or expect to be there soon then you will get a good payoff.
Have you actually read my reviews?

The charismatic hero gets +20 more on diplomacy. And gets huge diplomacy bonuses from an early level. He does SOMETHING and does it well for a long time.
Early levels? Oh, yeah, that +3 bonus from your class features are going to help so damn much. Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because that's the only advantage you're going to get until with a suspiciously similar build to yours takes Field Officer.

Anyway, even if your campaign doesn't have Field Officer or won't get that high in level, who picks a charismatic hero anyway? If you want to diplomatize, be a dedicated hero. Their bonuses are bigger. Pick up skill emphasis and empathy and leave the gimp-ass charismatic hero in the dust. Hell, the bonus is untyped as well, so it'll stack with the bonuses from magical items.

Charismatic Hero? Fucking pass in all circumstances.
Dual wielding rocket launchers gets mentioned for being COOL. But despite that.

1) You have to cast a buff spell before using your holy knight fantasy build. So, touché.
2) You have to be at MOST 5 feet away from your foe.
3) Who bothers reloading? You certainly don't with your no way at all to refill your limited damage bonus pool until tomorrow.
4) He can take my ammo, he cannot take my class abilities.
5) Done care, always hits, looks cool, gets more where that came from, and in no way cripples my character's ability to do EVERYTHING else.
1) ??? Buffs are easy to get on in Urban Arcana. The party mage or acolyte (preferably both) use online spellcasting. Everyone else uses a PDA or MP3 player or whatever and open up all of their e-mails.

I pointed out the damn charisma boost spell as a worst-case scenario item. If your DM doesn't allow spellcasting over e-mail AND doesn't let you stock up on potions then you can just cast the spell your own damn spell. And if your DM still won't let you be in any situation but ambushes with no prep-time, then you use Heroic Surge to get your charisma boost on and/or use your Tattoo of the Bulls' Eye.

There isn't an 'always hit' feature since dual rocket launchers are worthless are around your buddies and <30 feet away. You may be doing your d20 modern campaign like Shadowrun, where you often get the drop on enemies close by you or you might run it like Call of Duty 4. I can't judge that, so I'm giving it the Bat-Stamp of Shit based on those merits.

2) So you do other things in the meantime if you can't close the gap of 5 feet. For the most part you use firearms. Rubbet bullets of course. But this isn't like D&D where you can sink a bunch of abilities into ranged attacks. Save for Double Tap, firearms gain most of their power from BAB and inherent weapon abilities.

But for situations where you do get a bullshit closet troll ambush or the enemy has flat-out superior ranged attack options (like a dragon), you don't have to sit there and take it. Show them who's a man--punch 'em!

3) In case you didn't recognize from my subtle hints, you don't dual-wield rocket launchers, ever. They're heavy weapons, so you need your hands on both of them. They require a move-equivalent action to arm, so you can't just load up on 10 of them and quick-draw/drop them.

Rocket Launchers are ambush sniper weapons, plain and simple, along with being anti-vehicular weapons. And if you've ever played any Shadowrun then you know that they come with huge RPing disadvantages unless you're just playing Call of Duty d20 all the damn time.

Finally, yes, there is a sunk cost on using them. You need at the bare minimum Exotic Weapons Proficiency that's good for nothing else.

4) We've already been over that, only a jerkass DM will take away your abilities anyway. Again There is seriously no guidance on how to be a Holy Knight other than maintaining an allegiance to good. If you can spin a circumstance where a HK will find himself losing his abilities accidentally without a contrived situation from the DM, I'd love to hear it.

5) So looks cool is a criteria now? I think someone as adamant as you about what's playable and what sucks wouldn't give a rat's ass about what looks cool.
I'm talking about it because its a class I already covered. And its stun lock, being a capstone ability means a character desiring it delays holy knight levels for at least an additional 4 or 5 character levels, if not forever.

And stunlocks dwarf the ability to gimp your character for its entire playable career to one day get one big damaging hit, maybe, that the GM is outright encouraged to deprive you of at whim.
Those stunlocks you mentioned? Cost. Action points. You know, the action points you so revile.

Mind, I don't have such a grim view of action points. When you need them you need them. Regardless, the Holy Knight can use an action point on his capstone ability when it's crunch time. He has the option. But he's not going to do that generally; he's going to inflict daze-lock with subdual damage. If he doesn't have the action point, then he distributes the Holy Touch ability through his unarmed strikes to push the damage over the daze threshold meter. The Shadow Slayer MUST use his action points to keep this ability going. Mind, you'll probably never use more than two per combat and probably not use many at all.

And, of course, what are you going to do with this ability when you're NOT fighting Shadow opponents? Shadow is a campaign feature exclusive to Urban Arcana/Shadow Chasers to begin with. The world your DM cooks up might not even have Shadow as a concept. Furthermore, you might now fight Shadow creatures all of the time. So then what?

This would be a serious problem if the Shadow Slayer otherwise sucked, but it doesn't so I don't care. Word of Slaying is a very nice ability that has a lot of applications. But it's not the end-all, be-all. It doesn't do anything above and beyond what's in your standard arsenal of tricks. The Super Smite, OTOH, does; it kills things deader than dead if you need to do it.
If a bunch of crit feats and some other class abilities are what you are talking about for the dragon punch at class entry...
I'm sorry, I meant when you get the ability, not when you enter the class. My mistake.

But anyway, for one, this isn't like taking the whirlwind chain where you're led astray by a bunch of bullshit feats like dodge and mobility to get an ability. You're taking feats that are useful in of themselves, like Power Crit, a feat almost everyone should put in their arsenal anyway. Depending on campaign particulars, you might choose Supernatural Strike, especially if you have Power Crit.

In other words, you advance normally and get a lot of mileage out of your feats and THEN your damage suddenly spikes and explodes.

Finally:
THOSE AREN'T HOLY KNIGHT ABILITIES DUMBASS.
You really need to calm the fuck down PhoneLobster. I'm not some strawman off-boarder you can just snipe at in an attempt to be funny.
PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

The 13 Wise Buttlords wrote:I'm not some strawman off-boarder you can just snipe at in an attempt to be funny.
Doesn't stop your repeated, and continued uses of non holy knight abilities to defend the holy knight from being A GIANT HILARIOUS JOKE. Membership in the tree house boys club doesn't bring anti mocking privileges.
it 'appears' that you only get 24 points of damage to play with. But you're using Power Crit, so it starts at 72 damage and can go way, way up. For example, a 20 charisma level 20 holy knight (how to get your buff on is explained below) can dish out 300 hp of damage with their trick before we throw on expansion options.
So lets get this straight
A) Level 14 wasn't enough, now level 20 builds get a mention.
B) I SEE, it all relies on using critical hit to multiple your inflict touch. But... wait why the fuck does THAT get to critical multiply and all the damage it's comparing against doesn't especially since...
C) Power Crit and all your critical feats AREN'T HOLY KNIGHT ABILITIES DUMBASS. Anyone can take them, anyone can use them, by your reasoning EVERYONE gets to multiply all their damage bonuses for comparison purposes and your "starts out at +72" really doesn't look like much at all.
Does it temporarily gimp you? Yes, it does and doesn't start giving benefits until level 9 at least, which is why I won't recommend Holy Knight for most campaigns.
Any class you can't recommend because in most campaigns it is totally gimped for if not the ENTIRETY of a normal campaign certainly the majority of it is a BAD CLASS.

I mean how the hell is that "head and shoulders above his companions"?

You can't say "The holy knight is a kick ass combat class, except in the majority of the majority of campaigns." Once you've qualified it that much I can state that the SMART hero is a kick ass combat class, except in the majority of the majority of campaigns.
Early levels? Oh, yeah, that +3 bonus from your class features are going to help so damn much. Well, enjoy it while it lasts, because that's the only advantage you're going to get until with a suspiciously similar build to yours takes Field Officer.
By level 3 you are getting +6 MORE to diplomacy than just class skill, feats and charisma investment get you vs 50% of all NPCs and +3 more vs the rest. Every level of charismatic you go up after that gives you +2/+1 more and at level 5 that's to basically 100% of NPCs for the larger bonus.

That's seriously a noticable something or other you are doing there as early as level 3, and by level 10 you never fail at diplomacy again. You are still inferior to everyone (except smart heroes and some of the extra dumb prestige classes) in every other respect but you at least get one big giant thing you can do in a big giant way.

The field officer gets to stand there giving everyone other than himself bonuses, doesn't take actions himself, and everyone shoots him every turn until he dies because he is the simultaneously the easiest and highest priority target in the group. That isn't a player usable character class, its a cluster fuck.
If you want to diplomatize, be a dedicated hero. Their bonuses are bigger. Pick up skill emphasis and empathy and leave the gimp-ass charismatic hero in the dust. Hell, the bonus is untyped as well, so it'll stack with the bonuses from magical items.
The bonuses aren't bigger for dedicated, indeed one of them is smaller, and the one that is the same size has a more costly and stupid requirement for use.

The charismatic ones are also untyped.

And you can stick one level of dedicated onto your charismat for the +3 skill focus if you must (heck once you've done your charismatic hero levels you can fill out dedicated for an extra untyped +1 per dedicated level) but really you've wandered well off the RNG by then anyway...
1) ??? Buffs are easy to get on in Urban Arcana. The party mage or acolyte (preferably both) use online spellcasting. Everyone else uses a PDA or MP3 player or whatever and open up all of their e-mails.
Did I miss something because I see only ONE attribute boosting effect in the entire system.

I don't give a shit if you deliver it by email or potions, "+5 and that is it" isn't getting any better that "+5 and that is it" even if it IS sent to you by an honest to goodness prince of Nigeria who just needs your credit card number.
There isn't an 'always hit' feature since dual rocket launchers are worthless are around your buddies and <30 feet away.
Like I said, melee bonuses are worthless at a range greater than 5 feet, so really what the hell point do you think you are making in your favour?

You get 5 feet, I get 30+ out to a gazillion I'm going to LIE and instead of calling that vastly in my favour call it a wash.

Then I'm still going to laugh at you over range limitations because MINE is an area effect.
3) In case you didn't recognize from my subtle hints, you don't dual-wield rocket launchers, ever. They're heavy weapons, so you need your hands on both of them. They require a move-equivalent action to arm, so you can't just load up on 10 of them and quick-draw/drop them.
Nowhere does it state anything other than a move action at SOME point to arm them, hell it doesn't even need a free hand. Meanwhile the class I was discussing explicitly gets to use a Large weapon in each hand.

You ignore all the text telling GMs to take away Holy Knight class abilities like it wasn't even printed but you like to make bullshit up about rocket launchers.
Finally, yes, there is a sunk cost on using them. You need at the bare minimum Exotic Weapons Proficiency that's good for nothing else.
A) Oooh, if I don't I'll get -4 to hitting that square's AC what? 10...
B) Screw it, I'll invest the feat so I can hit things directly and ignore some funky hardness (like I care). Gee, guess that puts me one feat behind on investing the HOW many? feats in critical hit stuff (which magically doesn't apply to damage from sources other than inflict, like say, rocket launchers).

In fact, did you notice you actually CAN power crit a rocket launcher? Man that's one poorly written and conceived feat (I won't say it's outright bad or broken, or deserving of GM nerfing, d20modern characters need all the help they can get and we all know it).
4) We've already been over that, only a jerkass DM will take away your abilities anyway.
And that jerk ass GM has direct rules text supporting his jerkery. Unlike say, when he want's to stop me dual wielding rocket launchers.
5) So looks cool is a criteria now?
Fuck yeah. Coolness is the primary and fundamental criteria. The reason actual functionality and mechanical capability are a criteria at all is because failing in those regards is not cool.

Read my reviews. Flavour is an issue. Such as, oh, off the top of my head, the way field officer never personally does anything ever, or the way Holy Knight isn't even a motherfucking modern themed class. And therefore is totally uncool and not hip with the times in a cool modern style setting.
Those stunlocks you mentioned? Cost. Action points. You know, the action points you so revile.
Action point reliant ability, minus significant amount to power of ability.

Large amount of stunlock with NO SAVE or roll of ANY form. Plus well nigh infinite amount of ability.

Well nigh infinite minus significant amount, equals fucking lots.
But he's not going to do that generally; he's going to inflict daze-lock with subdual damage.
Ah, the "holy knight" is going to do that is he... Oddly, it's in no way a holy knight class ability to do so at all, is it? You know what I'm thinking.
If he doesn't have the action point, then he distributes the Holy Touch ability through his unarmed strikes to push the damage over the daze threshold meter.
You know what else I'm thinking? I'm thinking, WTF, that ability doesn't work like that at all. It's a special touch attack, which you can apply smite to, not the other way round. Even if you CAN charge it up like it were chill touch or some junk it deals HOLY DAMAGE BATMAN.

In fact WTF? What the hell is your holy knight doing dealing non lethal damage anyway? I mean "Haha, demon lord Khan, I shall take you alive, with my SAP/Kung Fu/Flat of Blade at -4" Only one of those does anything other than make the already highly specific setting that even allows the holy knight anything less than even more specific/stupider. And it causes a -4 penalty, something which five seconds ago stopped you from wanting to do something much cooler like dual wielding rocket launchers.
And, of course, what are you going to do with this ability when you're NOT fighting Shadow opponents? Shadow is a campaign feature exclusive to Urban Arcana/Shadow Chasers to begin with.
And holy knights are exclusive to those campaigns and have abilities that either don't work or are deprived when you use them against targets of an even more specific subset which may be common only in a more specific subset of those settings.

The holy knight is throwing stones from a glass house, no wait, sorry, making touch inflict attacks at the same time as sap/kungfu from inside glass houses.
The world your DM cooks up might not even have Shadow as a concept. Furthermore, you might now fight Shadow creatures all of the time. So then what?
Well then Holy Knight is screwed as a magical class then isn't it?
Word of Slaying is a very nice ability that has a lot of applications. But it's not the end-all, be-all. It doesn't do anything above and beyond what's in your standard arsenal of tricks.
No. Save. Stunlock. It even lasts 1d4 rounds so you get to mess about in between. It even effects EVERY applicable target in 15 feet. It even has better stunlock effects on mooks (up to the ultimate stunlock, death with no save). I know, hard to believe, but I just checked again just in case it someone drugged me with psychedelics when I did the write up on it last time.
this isn't like taking the whirlwind chain where you're led astray by a bunch of bullshit feats like dodge and mobility to get an ability. You're taking feats that are useful in of themselves, like Power Crit, a feat almost everyone should put in their arsenal anyway.
And therefore should be accounted for for everyone. Everyone multiplies their damage by whatever (which as far as I can tell from a brief overview is only ever really double because this is d20 modern and all x3 or better weapons aren't and I can't find that improved critical multiplier feat anywhere so it mustn't have made the leap).

So the holy knight really only gains well, nothing here. Plenty of other classes get loads of synergy from multplying damage, like you know the guy with 30 fricking strength (BEFORE magic bullshit).
In other words, you advance normally and get a lot of mileage out of your feats and THEN your damage suddenly spikes and explodes.
No, you advance with weaker attributes and abilities because you invested in charisma and built for an ability you don't get till 14. and for at least 3 levels before you get it you advance in a class that gives you stuff that isn't as good as 3 more levels in other classes gets you, and even once you get there you haven't really pulled ahead in any way that is worth that amount of pain (not that there IS anything worth that as we know that sort of trade off is stupid).
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