The awesomeness of the 4.0E fighter.

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Aktariel
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Post by Aktariel »

Kaelik wrote:You know what, I'm totally wrong. What you actually want is using two at once. Then you can have a +X cunning sword (as high as you can get it given current level) and you'll use the item crafting rituals to get a +1 Orb of continuance, +1 orb of whatever, and +1 Cunning weapon. And then you'll use the daily abilities but always use the same implement for attack roll (the only thing that matters) so it will cost less.
Uh... ok, you might be wrong about the first bit, but why would you need three additional implements?
Kaelik wrote:
Well you should tell him not to. The thing is, as power progression goes, every class in 4e is a full caster. So any multiclass were you use actual levels is just bad.

A level 15 Fighter/15 Barbarian in 4e would be a paragon character with more HP and higher attack bonus. That's it. A level 22 Fighter would be able to wipe the floor with him.

Tell him to use the feats because with all the splat stuff, you can actually use them to some effect with some characters. But not character is ever going to want to blow actual levels on other classes level 1 dailies.

Even if there was some way through crazy bullshit to actually figure out what powers/epic destinies/paragon paths a level 15 Fighter/15 Barbarian actually had, it would still be like being a level 10 Cleric/10 Wizard in 3e. Really fucking dumb.
He's aware of this, as am I. His solution was something like, "Ok, so you want to be a Wizard 5/Warlock 5... well, you're actually going to be a Wizard 5 and a warlock 6-10.

Which still seems like it blows monkey balls, but is marginally better.


Lago: why are warlock powers so good? I mean, I hear that the way to win in 4E is to lock people down with massive penalties, preferably unconsciousness, but wouldn't it just be better to have people who deal craptons of damage?

Also, why wouldn't I want Orb of Imposition?
Last edited by Aktariel on Mon May 18, 2009 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Warlock powers aren't good, that's the thing. The benefit from power-swapping is not equal depending on which class is plundering from what; an avenger would love to snag a ton of powers from the invoker but an invoker wouldn't want any avenger powers in a million years.

Ak: I wouldn't use Orb of Imposition because it completely breaks the game. It's really just too good, especially at paragon tier; you throw down a sleep and then you basically tell the DM 'hey DM, FUCK YOU'.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Aktariel wrote:Uh... ok, you might be wrong about the first bit, but why would you need three additional implements?
The point is to get effects off the implements without having to have multiple high implement values.

For example. You could afford one of the following options (this is mostly made up, the actual wealth scaling curve is way steeper than this example):

Option 1) +4 Orb of Continuance +4 Orb of Imposition +4 Cunning Sword.
Use each orb 1/day, then use sword.

Option 2) +6 Cunning Sword.

Option 3) +6 Cunning Sword, +1 Orb of Imposition, +1 Orb of Continuance, +1 Cunning Sword.
Use the Cunning Sword everytime, and occasionally use the orb effects, or sometimes a second sword. (if you can, not sure.)

Those 3 +1 items seriously cost 1/100th of a +6 item, while at the same time being just as good, since you get the attack bonus of the +6.
Aktariel wrote:He's aware of this, as am I. His solution was something like, "Ok, so you want to be a Wizard 5/Warlock 5... well, you're actually going to be a Wizard 5 and a warlock 6-10.
Actually, that's really good. Because it actually removes 29 levels from most classes. You get all class features at level 1, everything after is just powers, and this way you can be for example: Avenger 1/Fighter X/Warlord X/Fighter X/Warlord X, and have just the best power from every level while still carrying the Avenger class features that Lago talks about (I've never seen the class).

This seriously means that when you pick up your level X encounter power, you should look at every power in the game of that level, pick the best one (that is keyed off one of your high stats) and take a level in the class that gives that power.

For even more fun, at every level you don't get a power, take a level in whatever class gives you the highest HP.
Aktariel wrote:Lago: why are warlock powers so good? I mean, I hear that the way to win in 4E is to lock people down with massive penalties, preferably unconsciousness, but wouldn't it just be better to have people who deal craptons of damage?
Warlock powers suck, what he said is that all warlocks want to multiclass Wizard so they can get Wizard powers, but Wizards never multiclass Warlock, because warlock powers suck (all the time, but even more if you have no pact of curse class features).
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Avengers have this power:
Avenger, PHB2 wrote: OATH OF ENMITY
Suck on my sword, villains! Suck it dry!

Encounter (Special) * Divine
Minor Action -- Close burst 10
Target: One enemy you can see in burst.
Effect: When you make a melee attack against the target and the target is the only enemy adjacent to you, you make two attack rolls and use either result. This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or until the target drops to 0 hit points, at which point you regain the use of this power.
If another effect lets you roll twice and use the higher result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack. If an effect forces you to roll twice and use the lower result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack roll either.
If an effect lets you reroll an attack roll and you rolled twice because of this power, you reroll both dice.
They also have Channel Divinity, too, which is actually really nice when you want to get your Righteous Wrath of Tempus on.

But anyway, avenger powers suck monkey fuck. They have no powers that let them take more than one attack and no bonus damage feature. Furthermore, because they're a WIS/DEX/INT class, they don't actually qualify for the good weapon feats. They have Oath of Enmity which you think would be awesome for critical hits, but no, they can't even grab Weapon Mastery because their stat array sucks balls.

They're supposed to get their damage from using their Oath of Enmity feature. Which is supposed to make it okay. It doesn't, but there's still hope!

What you want to do is go Eternal Seeker and swap out EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR FUCKING POWERS. And because the dumbfucks who designed this edition are, well, dumb as a bag of fermented menses the 'real' combat classes use STR as a primary attack stat. Yet avengers don't use STR for any of their powers or class features--butt you don't care because avenger powers suck anyway.

I mentioned half-elf avenger several times. You know why? Because half-elves have a feat in this book called Versatile Master, which changes the power they selected with Half-Elf Dilennte into an At-Will. And the power is going to be Twin Strike or Dual Strike. So what you have right now is:

A character that picked a race that is ENTIRELY unsuited for their base class and also picked a stat array that doesn't match their class at all--because they're half-elves there's no reason for them not to pick up chainmail armor eventually.

But you know what? It's okay, because you're using Oath of Enmity on Twin/Dual Strike, which will still ensure that you do more damage than any other Avenger power you will ever pick. And hey, since you have no use for any of your avenger encounter or daily attack powers anymore, why bother keeping any of them? You should pick some class (like fighter or ranger) and do as much power swapping as you can for powers that you WILL use. Fighter and ranger have a bunch of encounter attack powers that don't use standard actions and also have a nice selection of multi-attack/stance dailies.

But since you can't swap out everything, you go Eternal Seeker to finish your trade. By level 29, you have something like Follow-Up Blow, Quicksilver Stance, and Sudden Assault as your daily powers and Rain of Blows (from Reserve Manuever), Storm of Blades, Cloak of Thorns, Trip-Up and Hurricane of Blades as your encounter powers.

But you have Oath of Enmity now and you also have Weapon Mastery. So it's not only okay, but you are the fucking man. Even the Ranger and Fighter bow down in front of you and suck on your cock.

And all you had to do was completely ignore every facet of your class, from the light armor to the stat array to the feats to the powers and just focus on one feature.

And that, my friends, is why multiclassing will never be balanced. Isn't 4th Edition awesome?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

You know what, I just went into rant mode again. Don't worry, it'll be quick.

The Avenger class is one of the worst-designed pieces of trash in 4E I have ever seen. Well, there's the issue of skill challenges. And role protection. And magical item advancement. And mon--

Okay, it's definitely the worst class published so far.

But anyway, it suffers from all of the usual problems of the striker role, it suffers from all of the problems of other single-attack strikers, it suffers from the huge feat/multiclass divide in 4E... and worst of all, the avenger class becomes literally more powerful if you never use any of its features.

If you put your highest points in what would normally be a DUMP STAT, if you find some way to get a 'real' set of At-Wills, if you use none of the powers unless absolutely necessary, if you aren't stupid enough to take any of the avenger PPs, you will become a force to be reckoned with. Have you heard of anything so fucked up?It's not like the rogue, where it becomes stronger if you ignore the flavor text--the rogue still has lots of really helpful powers--no. The more you ignore the class, the stronger it becomes.

That, my friends, is some horse pucky.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

I'm not impressed by your avengerish shenanigans.

It's a cute trick, and absolutely using oath of enmity with multi-attacks and weapon mastery will generate obscene quantities of damage and crits.

But please explain to me why I'm supposed to be impressed by your avenger/fight as compared to a regular fighting character who didn't set his feats, race, and epic destiny on fire.

Compare your avenger build to a fighter/demigod from some straightforward fighter race like Half-Orc or Dragonborn.

Heroic Tier:

Well, you have less HP and surges than a real fighter. Your NADs are also uninspiring -- you get better class bonuses but your stat bonuses are going to secondary states -- your fort and will are coming from STR and WIS, not CON and CHA. You also start with substantially worse AC though you can correct this with feats.

Speaking of feats, you get 6 in the heroic tier. You're setting 2 on fire swap powers, plus the qualifying multiclass feat though I'm not counting that as a dumped feat. You're also spending 3 feats to get to chain armor. This means you're super squishy from levels 1-3, after which you're down only 1-4 AC from a real fighter epending on whether he has a shield and plate. Congratulations, you just spent all your feats!

Class Features? You'll take Pursuit which which actually vaguely work. You'll have your Oath. You get Channel Divinity which is awesome in FR but largely forgettable otherwise. You set Armor of Faith on fire.

A real Fighter gets weapon talent, for a net +2 to hit over you, counting STR. That's not as good as a re-roll but it doesn't cost actions and require fancy positioning. He also gets marks and sticky AoOs. All you get are the mildly useful Pursuit bonus and Channel Divinity which is pretty forgettable outside FR.

Let's talk powers -- the incredible offense that justifies all these sacrifices. You can use Twin Strike to make four attack rolls of awesome... once an encnounter. At level 8 (assuming you grabbed chainmail first) you finally get a second multiattack per encounter. The Fighter has all Fighter powers, plus a racial attack like dragonbreath or half-orc fury.

Paragon Tier:

Things look up for you in this tier-- you've got your armor, you powerswaps, you can take actual feats, and while you and the regular fihgter can both take a fighter path, you'll get more use from it. On the other hand, my half-orc can just be a Daggermaster or Student of Caiphon and get about the same number of crits as you and more benefits from them. He also continues to upgrade his racial features. If a half-orc, he's getting a racial attack bonuses when first bloodied, and of course a dragonborn gets them whenever he is bloody the time, so he's even closer to catching up with your accuracy.

Epic Tier:

A Half-Orc, Dragonborn, Human, or Goliath Fighter/Demigod has a permanent +3 to hit over you, making your re-rolls a lot more impressive, especially since he can scrounge up more situational to ht bonuses from racial feats and powers. He's also virtually immortal, and at level 30 broken in too many ways to mention. And he's perfectly capable of cherry-picking barbarian, warlord, or rogue powers to get a powerlist even more abusive than yours.

So yeah, LAGO, I'm just not seeing why your avenger is supposed to be so great.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Hey Boolean. I'm pretty sure the point is that you use Twin Strike with rerolls on every attack ever. Not once or twice per encounter, but every single attacks.

Oath of Enmity works constantly, and isn't very hard to position. And Twin Strike is at will.
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Post by Orion »

Sorry, should have been more clear.

Yes, it applies to all your attacks if you have the proper positioning. We don't care unless you're making two attacks a round. If you're only making one and rolling it twice, you suck compared to a fighter, who is making 2 to 3 actual attacks every round.

Twin-Strike is only at will for the Half-Elf Avenger once he hits paragon tier. Therefore in heroic tier he sucks unredeemably.

In Paragon tier he finally works, but the real fighter has a lot going for him too, like marks, sticky AoOs, and more powers. The Fighter is also at least+2 to hit over the avenger which goes a long way towards mitigating the lack of oath.

At Epic LAGO is seriously proposing being a Seeker, which means the real fighter also gets all the demigod goodies over his avenger rival.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Boolean wrote:Sorry, should have been more clear.
I didn't realize you couldn't get the at will until Paragon. Nevermind, that does suck till Heroic.

But so does a Warlock 4/Bard Variant 1/Ur-Priest X. Until it rocks.

I'm okay with a build having a label, "minimum level 11" on it.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

But please explain to me why I'm supposed to be impressed by your avenger/fight as compared to a regular fighting character who didn't set his feats, race, and epic destiny on fire.
Because I was talking about end-of-game power and not beginning of the game power?

You've heard me repeatedly pimp Battle Captain Tactical Warlords as the best Warlords, but honestly they aren't all that great until around level 16 or so--until then you'd be served better by a Bravura Warlord.

The Avenger trick doesn't really come into play unless you start at a high level, preferably level 11 (otherwise you just suck monkey fuck until then). If you're multiclassing Fighter--and you should--you want Rain of Blows and Quicksilver Stance anyway. I don't consider those sunk feats by any costs; those powers kick your fucking ass.

I recommended STR/CON just for Storm of Blades; if you don't want that power than you can just go STR/DEX and just be content with having a higher AC than even a paladin.
Things look up for you in this tier-- you've got your armor, you powerswaps, you can take actual feats, and while you and the regular fihgter can both take a fighter path, you'll get more use from it. On the other hand, my half-orc can just be a Daggermaster or Student of Caiphon and get about the same number of crits as you and more benefits from them. He also continues to upgrade his racial features. If a half-orc, he's getting a racial attack bonuses when first bloodied, and of course a dragonborn gets them whenever he is bloody the time, so he's even closer to catching up with your accuracy.
Why can't this avenger be one of those classes?

They don't HAVE to multiclass fighter. They just can. They probably want to anyway if they're starting from paragon but not from epic, but then they'll just have to settle for the lame fighter PPs of Kensei or Swordmaster. Boo hoo.
A Half-Orc, Dragonborn, Human, or Goliath Fighter/Demigod has a permanent +3 to hit over you, making your re-rolls a lot more impressive, especially since he can scrounge up more situational to ht bonuses from racial feats and powers. He's also virtually immortal, and at level 30 broken in too many ways to mention. And he's perfectly capable of cherry-picking barbarian, warlord, or rogue powers to get a powerlist even more abusive than yours.
Eternal Seeker lets you snag Guileful Switch and Platinum Scales; having those two powers in your corner pocket is better than +2 to two stats any day of the week.

Guileful Switch is the utility power, especially if you're a martial character. Here's how a typical use of it goes with Eternal Seeker:

Pop Guileful switch, get an extra turn.
Blow an AP, recover Guileful Switch with the Martial Mastery feat. Use it AGAIN for another extra turn.
Enjoy your second standard action, courtesy of the Eternal Seeker class ability.
If you've gotten a critical hit, which is very likely at this point, activate your Violet Solitaire for another AP. Get Guileful Switch back and enjoy yourself another turn.
Enjoy a second second standard action, courtesy of the Eternal Seeker class ability.
So there you go. Because you picked up Eternal Seeker, at the 'cost' of one AP you've gotten 5 extra standard actions over some sucker who picked up Demigod.

The utility power is better, too. 28 regeneration? I'll raise you +9 to all defenses until the end of the encounter because I have Platinum Scales (Sorcerer 22) and some ring from the AV that boosts all of my defenses.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Orion
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Post by Orion »

Okay, so you don't care about heroic tier. That's fair, I suppose.

Then again, I don't really care about epic tier considering how ludicrously broken it is, not only in balance but in basic playability.

That leaves paragon. You haven't convinced me that your avenger does anything special in level 11-20.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Oh, it doesn't. At paragon tier a STR/DEX avenger is only a couple of attack points ahead of their fighter buddy (being able to reroll all of your dice when you have a 50% chance of hitting translates to about a +5 attack bonus) and probably roughly even in parity in AC.

The avenger dailies aren't all that worse off than the fighter's though the tempest fighter has about two more 'usable' encounter attack powers. The avenger OTOH has access to the Righteous Wrath of Tempus feat, which opens up a bunch of expansion options and items--at around level 16 or so, a Swordmaster Avenger who can use RWOT to use Rain of Blows about 2 to 3 times an encounter and also has Reckless Attacker and Two-Weapon Opening starts to pull ahead.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by sake »

Of course all these builds will probably be obsolete when the PHB 3 comes out and adds the poorly designed hybrid classes to the mix. That's when you'll start to see the really batshit crazy system mastery stuff happen since you can still take the regular multiclass feats with hybrid classes. And while most of the hybrid strikers and defenders are nearly worthless thanks to the way the rules work (the hybrid Avenger might as well not even be printed since the hybrid version of Oath of Enmity will be limited to Avenger powers only) I'm sure the charop/touhoufag people will find ways to send 4E into brand new areas of crazy town.
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