Dumb rules question regarding enhancement bonuses and armor.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:47 am

By the rules-as-written, if I wore bracers of armor +8 and a +5 chain shirt, would I have an overall +13 bonus to AC? It seems that way, given that the +5 is an enhancement bonus to armor class, not an increase of the item's armor bonus. However, I've never actually seen this suggested in builds, which leads me to believe that there must be some rule somewhere that says, "No." (Aside from the prohibitive cost, of course--damnable bracers of armor.)

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:59 am

The SRD section on magic armor seems to back you up, weirdly.

I'd always thought of it as a meta-bonus, where it applies to the bonus given by your armor, but it seems like this is actually the real interpretation.

Huh.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:40 am

Yeah, the actual description is that the Enhancement bonus on Armor and Shields goes to AC directly, which means that it would apply against Touch Attacks and add to bracers of armor. It also means that you should be able to separately enchant the padding under your plate armor and the plate armor itself, one with specials and the other with bonuses to get a huge price break.

There is no support for the first interpretation in actual stat lines. The game actually treats them how you'd think they would be - where the armor enhancement is an enhancement bonus to the armor. How this went to 3.5 without being fixed I do not know, since this is one of the few parts of the rules where the RAW clearly does not meet the RAI. However, for the second part, that actually does have support. There are a few examples of people getting Padded Armor of Heavy Fortification and wearing it under Full Plate +5 to get a +13 Armor bonus and ignore crits and sneak damage.

-Username17

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Thu May 21, 2009 9:05 am

FrankTrollman wrote:There are a few examples of people getting Padded Armor of Heavy Fortification and wearing it under Full Plate +5 to get a +13 Armor bonus and ignore crits and sneak damage.

Would't that not work, since you can only have one item in your armor slot?

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:39 am

Of course you could just wear some +1 padded armor with lots of special abilities, and bracers of armor +8 with a Magic Vestment. You could even throw a few more special properties at the bracers.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu May 21, 2009 12:22 pm

RandomCasualty2 wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:There are a few examples of people getting Padded Armor of Heavy Fortification and wearing it under Full Plate +5 to get a +13 Armor bonus and ignore crits and sneak damage.
Would't that not work, since you can only have one item in your armor slot?

Oddly enough, no. Plate Armor is better than you for many reasons, not the least of which is that it nominally comes with a two-fer on armor slots. A fact that they have even remembered and exploited a few times in their own stat blocks.

-Username17

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:11 pm

Of course you could just wear some +1 padded armor with lots of special abilities, and bracers of armor +8 with a Magic Vestment. You could even throw a few more special properties at the bracers.

I always wondered if bracers of armor could be affected by magic vestment. I suppose that it can. But oh noes, you're letting beatsticks get better armor than they should!1!!1!11!

On a completely unrelated note:

Frank, I went digging through the old Nifty messageboards the other day, just to see if I could glean a little information on the alluded-to feud between you and Kkat. I must say, I admire your self-restraint. I can only imagine banging my head against the wall in frustration in dealing with a bitch like that.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:19 pm

*shrugs* The only difference is it's plate without the slow or low dex cap. Since you probably won't get your dex higher than about 18 anyways the result is you've removed the BS slowdown and got an effective Nimble in there for... 64k extra or more. Because you still have to pay for all the special properties you'd be taking anyways on your physical armor which is padded or gnome twistcloth or whatthefuckever and pairing up with Magic Vestment.

If anything, the fact it costs 64k just to get +8 AC instead of +5 without cutting your speed by a third (and you'll get auto hit anyways) means it's still too damn much. But it is there if you want it.

Oh and the gishes are still using greater mage armor or inertial armor + magic vestment, so who cares?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:22 pm

Yes, unfortunately. However, one could also apply magic vestment to (greater) mage armor, then, as it physically summons armor around you (for whatever dumbfuck reason). And while that's not spectacular, a +9 to +11 armor bonus for free isn't something I'd bitch about.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Thu May 21, 2009 9:35 pm

I just said that. Hell, I think Luminous Armor is also a target, and can also be Abjurant Championed for... +18? So giving some random beatstick +13 for a high cost... eh.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:22 pm

Yeah, I missed your edit.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Fri May 22, 2009 11:36 am

PR, not really a feud you to drag back here. Shes a friend of mine.I'll cop it if Frank desperately wants to air old grievances, since they're his grievances. But theres no need for you to be doing it.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:33 pm

Draco_Argentum wrote:PR, not really a feud you to drag back here. Shes a friend of mine.I'll cop it if Frank desperately wants to air old grievances, since they're his grievances. But theres no need for you to be doing it.

Kkat bought every gram of the disdain she receives from others. You being her friend does not entitle you to censor other people. If you were Elensar's friend in real life you wouldn't have the right to censor other people being exasperated with him.

You're free, as everyone else is, to say anything nice about Kkat. I personally can't think of anything, but as her personal friend I'm sure you can. But the flip side is that everyone else is also free to say the occasional negative thing about her. And having her mentioned in a negative context when her very real and very extensive anti-social behavior comes up for whatever reason is something that you have to live with.

Once you put your words on the internet you have to accept that some people will have a negative reaction to them. The words don't go away, and the reactions will continue to happen. If you want people to not have a negative reaction, you have to say things which are not contentious. If you want people to have a positive reaction you need to put words out that have some value in some context. To put this in perspective, there is a new thread discussing me on Paizo Right Now. And some people say things about me that are not nice. Some of them are my personal hate cheerleaders Aubrey and Disenchanter, but other people are guys I don't recognize. And some of them have a positive reaction and say nice things.

If you're an internet personality you must have a thick skin about that sort of thing. The responsibility for getting people to say more nice things about your words than bad things is yours and yours alone. You won't please everyone no matter what you do and if you make enough of an impression at all you'll generate hate mail. You must accept that if you're going to create any fame at all in any context.

The fact that people here are shocked and offended by Kkat's behavior is simply a result of the fact that her behavior is shocking, offensive, and unacceptable. But worse still, it's not productive. People are willing to put up with bitchy tirades sometimes if they are part of a larger movement to produce something positive. Hers was not. She's just a psycho bitch.

I'm glad that she is capable of being your friend in some other context. Good for you. But she's still a crazy bitch and you don't have the fucking right to censor anyone from saying so.

-Username17

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:08 pm

Lets see. You were both being asses in those threads. PR can blow you if he wants but thats how it was. You weren't being productive either, you were just resorting to your insulted therefore insulting mode of behaviour that you always fall back to when people don't agree with you. She of course has the exact same issue. Net result: two people I respect slinging insults at each other like school kids.

People put up with a lot of prima donna behaviour from you, Frank soley because when you're acting rationally you're an excellent writer and analyst. When you're not you do the exact same screaming, ranting shit that you personally call PL out on. So don't try to pretend that you're some innocent little victim here. You inspire hate and insults because you spew hate and insults.

This messageboard exists largely as a reaction to your feud with Medesha and Arturick from Nifty. As in when fbmf created the place he sent out invitations with the phrase "fair warning, I'm inviting Frank". Now I came here hoping for a place where we could all argue about various topics. Not somewhere where we could all rehash the various bits of bad blood from Nifty. So if you want to use TGD as a soapbox to get the last word in about stuff from 5 years ago against people who don't even post here then yes, I'm pissed off.

Get the fuck over it and show us that thick skin you're going on about. If you honestly had a thick skin you wouldn't need to mention shit and get validation from PR.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri May 22, 2009 2:44 pm

Draco, you are completely and utterly in the wrong here. Not because you called me a prima donna or said I was being an ass or said I was spewer of hatred. That's all fine. That's your right. And people have the right to say similar things about anyone else too. What you don't have the right to do, is to take away peoples' rights.

I don't need for PR to give me praise, just as I don't need for PR to insult Kkat and I don't need for Aubrey to stop insulting me and I don't need you to abstain from insulting me. But I do need for you to stop trying to censor people.

If you can't handle people saying things that you don't agree with, you need to get the fuck off of this forum, because people disagree a lot here. I don't know why you're getting all crazy about trying to silence discussion you don't like all of a sudden, but that's completely unacceptable behavior. It's some of the only behavior that actually is unacceptable. In your own words: Get the fuck over it and show us that thick skin you're going on about.

People insult me. All the time. It's OK. I don't see you doing fuck all about it to "protect" me and I don't care. I don't want you to, because people have the basic human right to lay insults at my feet. And the exact same human right that allows people to insult me, the ones they exercise every fucking day, apples to Kkat and her detractors as well.

I don't care if she is giving you sweet lovins every day. People still have the right to insult her, and you have the obligation to allow them to exercise that right.

Edit:

Draco wrote:Technically we could make some things faster my slowing down other things. Like objectionable content, oh wait, I'm not Conroy. Fuck people trying to decide who's content is more worthy.

Do you remember who said that? It was you.

Live up to your fucking principals and stop trying to prevent people you disagree with from having their say.

-Username17

Parthenon · Post by **Parthenon** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:40 pm

Back to the original topic, I was just imagining a tabletop RPG where you get various different armour parts and you could enchant the different sections. Maybe if you wear a chain shirt you get +3 to AC and if you wear chain leggings you get +1, but you could enchant each of them to +5. It would get needlessly complex with something like: if you have at least 3 items of optional leather armour (e.g. pauldrons, shinpads, bracers) you get +1, if you have 4 you get +2 and so on. That way armours with acid or flame resistance would actually be worth a damn since you could get resistance to several elements.

Then, Magic Vestment would only give a boost to one item so it would need to be chained to affect all the items. It would sort of solve Roy's complaint that you can't get a high enough AC to be worthwhile.

Looking at it more it seems a worse and worse idea. The numbers would end up way too divergent and it would be too complex. The only benefit would be that it would allow things like characters spending half an hour before an individual fight putting on huge amounts of armour rather than the comparatively light armour of normal adventuring, and mean that Samurai armour would make some sense.

Is it an irredeemably bad idea, or could anything of it be salvaged?

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:40 pm

Wait a sec. Isn't Aubrey = Lich Loved?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:47 pm

Roy wrote:Wait a sec. Isn't Aubrey = Lich Loved?

No they are different people.

Aubrey is the guy who initiates personal emails and then recuts the responses and posts portions of them out of context in open forums in order to try to make people look bad.

There are bad arguments and there are methods that straight up make it so that people can't trust you any more. Aubrey did the latter, and that's that.

-Username17

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:32 pm

I honestly didn't mean to start a mini-shitstorm, so let's drop the Kkat thing.

EDIT: Goddamnit, Aubrey the Failformed pisses me off. It's that bullshit stealth trolling/baiting that she does.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:46 pm

This whole thread devolution baffles the crap out of me.

First off whatever mention of kkat by Frank is not even in this thread. PR brought it up from out of the blue as an aside with condolences over what he perceives as a restrained response from an unpleasant arguer.

Then DA asks not open up old flame wars here. Not, I would image in an effort to squash freedom of speach, but because why the fuck would you. It would be like some new guy (not to suggest PR is new at this point) coming in to comment on sundertards, or paizils or our own recent demons (who shalt not be named) saying "what's was up with that crazy bullshit". The response of "go look at it yourself but it's kind of a closed debate around here." is fair and has in fact be enacted here to end the sundertard/paizil laughing and crying.

I think DA saying "I'll cop it if Frank desperately wants to air old grievances, since they're his grievances" in particular was a clear opening for the discussion on the topic to continue if the included parties (or at least the one present) felt it was warranted.

It's a bit like that "beef" that was made up between Otto Bugbear and Frank, where, as I recall, Otto had used material obviously from the tomes without attribution, something Frank has repeatedly said he doesn't care about. I wasn't really anyone's place to make a stink about it without Frank's (or K's) express desire for them to do so.Make Frank (and Otto) aware of it sure but it would be out of place for people to make a fight where a fight wasn't wanted (in the end by either party as Otto was all but happy to attribute to Frank and K.)

Now DA over reacted a bit to PR. What he said was not really licking Frank's balls (there is a lot of lick frank's done here but I wouldn't call this an example of it) nor did it implicitly seek to reopen the debate. But I understand how calling his friend a bitch (even if possibly warranted)
might have gotten DA's hackles up.

But that still doesn't get us to Frank's assertion that DA was attempting to Censor what was being said. There is really not a single place where he is saying this is a topic that should be forbidden. He said "there's no need for you to be doing it"; not that you mustn't do it. My doctor says I have no need for a bottle of scotch but that doesn't prevent me from having one if I want to.

I totally believe in freedom of speech, but it should sometimes follow with the responsibility of determining what is or isn't appropriate to talk about in certain situations and judging if anything truly needs to be said. If I called some girl I didn't know a bitch and someone I knew(or even a strange) said that bitch was an important person to them, I think I'd close my mouth on the subject unless the was some truly pressing reason that in needed to say more (for which there very well could be). It's not censorship, it's not being a bitch myself.

Note: I'm not saying PR is a bitch for calling kkat a bitch in the first place as he presumably didn't know of DA's friendship with her. Nor is frank for continuing to air a grievance because DA actually invited him to do so.

Final conclusion: this just seems much to do about not much to me and I need to kick this filthy habit of getting involved in other people's arguments.

Ganbare Gincun · Post by **Ganbare Gincun** » Fri May 22, 2009 6:30 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:To put this in perspective, there is a new thread discussing me on Paizo Right Now. And some people say things about me that are not nice. Some of them are my personal hate cheerleaders Aubrey and Disenchanter, but other people are guys I don't recognize. And some of them have a positive reaction and say nice things.

Paizo may have failed at making a decent RPG, but at least they're giving Frank, K, and The Gaming Den a lot of free publicity. Hell, that's how I ended up on this Forum.

SunTzuWarmaster · Post by **SunTzuWarmaster** » Fri May 22, 2009 6:33 pm

Parthenon wrote:Back to the original topic, I was just imagining a tabletop RPG where you get various different armour parts and you could enchant the different sections. Maybe if you wear a chain shirt you get +3 to AC and if you wear chain leggings you get +1, but you could enchant each of them to +5.

Works great for CRPGs, but tabletop is a completely different story. You want to keep the amount of "number stacking game" in a tabletop to a minimum. If you have a Strength Belt in your game, your armor should not also boost strength, because it encourages tracking lots of little things from different categories. This works, mind you (see: most MMOs), but the tabletop is supposed to be more about the roleplay than the numbers.

This concept is not salvageable in a tabletop setting because the activity of switching out your leggings and adding your legging bonus to your armor bonus to your ... is not fun. In a CRPG setting, having a legging/arms/helmet/torso stacking bonus can be enjoyable (because switching is easy, and you can get more bonuses, which is fun).

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:08 pm

I wouldn't attach numerical bonuses to the leggings, but if you find the Kneepads of the Skull King and want to add them to your armor because they let you create skeletons, that's totally cool as long as they take up an appropriate slot.

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Fri May 22, 2009 10:00 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Do you remember who said that? It was you.

Live up to your fucking principals and stop trying to prevent people you disagree with from having their say.

Listen to yourself talk for a second there, Frank. Stop trying to prevent people who disagree with you from having their say. I told you I wouldn't keep my mouth shut about this and I'm not going to.

Frank, you are the guy who called accused PL of having a bestiality fetish in the centaur threads. We were all here and we all saw it. Then you say shit like:

The fact that people here are shocked and offended by Kkat's behavior is simply a result of the fact that her behavior is shocking, offensive, and unacceptable. But worse still, it's not productive. People are willing to put up with bitchy tirades sometimes if they are part of a larger movement to produce something positive.

Pot, meet kettle. Or maybe in your mind "You can't require the fucking adventuring world to be handicap accessible just because you personally think ponies are sexy." is somehow an appropriate debating tactic. That wasn't productive and it was certainly offensive. Wake up to yourself.

I don't need for PR to give me praise

Actually I think you do. I won't claim thats wrong, all humans seek praise from their fellows. But how else should I interpret going to a messageboard you don't post at and finding a fresh Frank sucks thread then posting it here? I know you're smart enough to realise some people will do exactly what PR did.

PR, not your fault since you couldn't have known. Besides, it would've happened at some point in the future anyway, this is just a little sooner than expected.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri May 22, 2009 11:18 pm

Draco, don't be dumb. The only thing PR said about the Paizo forum is that Aubrey is a stealth troll. That's news to exactly no one and represents zero praise of Frank Trollman.

Fuck, this is the gaming den. We all know (if you read it) that Aubrey has shit all clue what the Wish economy actually is, and that his insults mean nothing to anyone who has the slightest clue.

No one has praised Frank for anything about that thread, nor was the link to it seeking praise.