So, how 'bout them Mage Slayer feats?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:28 am

When I was first introduced to D&D (and greedily acquiring as many books as possible just to take in all the feats and prestige classes that there were), I noticed these feats. At the time, I figured that they weren't worth much, and passed them over. However, looking back, I can see that they might be useful to a fighter.

They do, unfortunately, require a bit of an investiture in the way of feats, but...

Mage Slayer
+1 bonus on Will Saves, spellcasters you threaten can't cast defensively. Your caster level is reduced by 4.

Pierce Magical Concealment
Requires Mage Slayer and Blind Fight.
Disregard all miss chance created by magic--blur, darkness, invisibility, and the like. You automatically know which is the real enemy when you see a mirror image. Caster level is reduced by 4. (Don't ask me how you negate the miss chance provided by invisibility, considering the miss chance is caused by not seeing the target, so you're hacking blindly into one square and you can't see your target, but...argh.)

Pierce Magical Protection
Requires Mage Slayer.
As a standard action, make a single attack that ignores all bonuses to AC granted by spells. If it hits and does damage, all spells and spell effects that provide a bonus to AC are auto-dispelled. Caster level is reduced by 4.

While obviously the fighter still sucks, it seems that these feats would be fairly useful in his repertoire. Thoughts?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:07 am

Pierce Magic Concealment is for Blinking Rogues, just in case your DM disagrees that thrown objects revert to realspace.

This also gives you attacks into the Ethereal whenever you want too.

Notice that despite the feat name, you ignore all miss chances due to spells, not all concealment. So yah, awesome.

Pierce Magical Protection is weird.

For example, if you can land a hit on a Shapechanged Wizard, he reverts to pussy self, which is hilarious.

Of course, someone asked the Sage about it, and he of course said, "Fuck no, Fighters can't have nice things!" Ruling that only explicit AC bonus spells count, so you can't even use it to cancel a Cat's Grace, much less a Polymorph according to him.

Amra · Post by **Amra** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:12 am

Pierce Magical Protection would be a lot nicer if it wasn't melee only.

Pierce Magical Concealment is interesting, but tough to adjudicate. As you say, it negates the miss chance due to an invisibility spell, but there's nothing there that suggests the feat helps you target the correct square. Likewise the obscuring mist example... you can ignore the miss chance due to concealment, but does that mean you can just see through the mist, or do you only ignore the miss chance if you target the correct square?

If you still can't use sight to target the correct square, I wonder how useful this feat would be (unless you were using blink, in which case this is absolutely something you want to be doing).

EDIT: Kaelik beat me to it on the blink front

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:28 am

I'd go with it only applying if you target the correct square. but there are ways to do that.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:47 pm

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:07 pm

ubernoob wrote:Actually, PMP explicitly only applies to bonuses. Replacements aren't bonuses.

That doesn't even pretend to matter.

Mage Armor provides an Armor bonus.
Shield provides a Shield bonus.
Polymorph provides a Natural Armor bonus.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:29 pm

well, I was going to say that blind fight probably helps you locate the invisible creature, but... well, blind fight is shit.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:34 pm

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:08 pm

Oh, the feat is meaningless gibberish. When you happen to have a wall of ice between you and the target, there's a cover bonus to the guy's AC. When he's got a Magic Vestment cast on his armor there's an Enhancement Bonus to the Armor Bonus of the armor to his AC. I mean seriously, what the fuck?

I would never allow the Mage Slayer feats because they are not written with the actual rules and order of operations of Dungeons and Dragons in mind. I honestly can't tell what they are supposed to do in most circumstances where they ought to apply.

-Username17

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:11 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:well, I was going to say that blind fight probably helps you locate the invisible creature, but... well, blind fight is shit.

Now now. Blind Fight is really fucking good at telling Rogues they really should be shooting bows or throwing flasks and not fighting in melee.

Because you know, we really needed another way to screw melee Rogues.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:32 pm

I like Mage Slayer. I only rarely take it.

I have not bothered to try and reconcile these two statements.

Basically, being able to roll up on a caster with a Reach weapon and finally having something to do to them other than get fucked is nice, though that assumes you can hit said caster (of course they're buffed) and they fail the Concentration check.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:41 pm

Why can't the Mage Slayer feats just do a Mordenkainen's Disjunction on the enemy?

It's not even like the feat will kill a spellcaster. You get one attack as a standard action and they can still cast the spells that kill you. So you pierced their armor--whoopity fucking do.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:14 pm

PMP also cancels out invisibility, as being invisible grants a bonus to AC. It cancels reduce person and anything that grants uncanny dodge or prevents you from being flat footed, too.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:56 am

NineInchNall wrote:It cancels...anything that grants uncanny dodge or prevents you from being flat footed, too.

I don't think so. Those effects don't effect your Dex modifier to AC, they act upon the set of circumstances within which it applies.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:59 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Why can't the Mage Slayer feats just do a Mordenkainen's Disjunction on the enemy?

It's not even like the feat will kill a spellcaster. You get one attack as a standard action and they can still cast the spells that kill you. So you pierced their armor--whoopity fucking do.

Because game disjunction should burn in hell.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:31 am

Obviously with some kind of clause of 'this can't affect magic items' because lord knows the problem is with the spell rather than the dumbass wealth-by-level system.

Jacob_Orlove · Post by **Jacob_Orlove** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:36 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Oh, the feat is meaningless gibberish. When you happen to have a wall of ice between you and the target, there's a cover bonus to the guy's AC. When he's got a Magic Vestment cast on his armor there's an Enhancement Bonus to the Armor Bonus of the armor to his AC. I mean seriously, what the fuck?

I would never allow the Mage Slayer feats because they are not written with the actual rules and order of operations of Dungeons and Dragons in mind. I honestly can't tell what they are supposed to do in most circumstances where they ought to apply.

-Username17

If you got someone's summoned creatures to use Aid Another for the +2 AC, you could dispel them too.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:43 pm

Jacob_Orlove wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Oh, the feat is meaningless gibberish. When you happen to have a wall of ice between you and the target, there's a cover bonus to the guy's AC. When he's got a Magic Vestment cast on his armor there's an Enhancement Bonus to the Armor Bonus of the armor to his AC. I mean seriously, what the fuck?

I would never allow the Mage Slayer feats because they are not written with the actual rules and order of operations of Dungeons and Dragons in mind. I honestly can't tell what they are supposed to do in most circumstances where they ought to apply.

-Username17
If you got someone's summoned creatures to use Aid Another for the +2 AC, you could dispel them too.

But can you Iron Heart Surge the Sun?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:02 pm

This is like the discussion of whether claws of the beast can be Empowered.

Heath Robinson · Post by **Heath Robinson** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:22 pm

Roy wrote:But can you Iron Heart Surge the Sun?

I'd consider the Sun to be a condition that afflicts its readers for a duration of 1 or more rounds. So, yes, the Sun can be Iron Heart Surged. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, though.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:53 pm

While an amusing and literal answer, I was more aiming for 'Can you IHS the Sun [with Mage Slayer]?'

Can the Sun potentially give AC bonuses?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:59 pm

Roy wrote:While an amusing and literal answer, I was more aiming for 'Can you IHS the Sun [with Mage Slayer]?'

Can the Sun potentially give AC bonuses?

I'm pretty sure it only ever gives to-hit penalties.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:05 am

On the other hand, I have the feeling there are critters who have some bullshit "When it's dark, you get a bonus to your AC. Yes, even though people already take a penalty due to not being able to see you." ability. If you're fighting them, you can... light the area up and make the darkness go away.

Holy shit, you can attack the darkness.

What you want to find are enemies with Snow Veil and Sand Veil*, to change the weather with your sword but without using IHS.

*Pokemon terms. There is probably a D&D equivalent somewhere.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:04 am

Remember that Pierce Magical Protection still only applies to spells.