It's Time to put up or shut up.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:17 am

We all love the Tomes. Frank & K aren't doing the Tomes anymore.

Let's stop whining about how we wish it were finished and fucking do it. Between all of us, we should be able to create a semblance of some Tomes.

Frank, if you could give us the list of what you had planned with a short description, that would be nice.

We had:

Tome of Trees
Tome of Virtue
Book of Gears
Tome of Tiamat

and some more. I think we all know in general what goes where.

I say we pull together and fucking do this shit. It's not like we don't already do it in pieces for ourselves all the time anyway. See Celestial Classes and Feats/redo book of Exalted Deeds. Well let's actually fucking do it. Anyone can contribute, and we'll fucking argue about what goes in like bitches and probably sabotage ourselves, but we might have enough actual shit for a whole Tome before we get that far. Anyone who wants to can start trying to lead this shit, but I'm saying we should start with Tome of Virtue, because it's what people are already working on.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:20 am

Kaelik wrote: (Something Arcane related? Probably fix blasting?)

Tome of Tiamat.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:32 am

I'm new to the whole homebrew scene but I would love to help.

Wasn't Book of Gears the closest thing to being done?

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:37 am

You know, we could actually go in all four directions at once with this. We have the people, and it would be good for writer's block. One thread for each of the four tomes in IMHO to discuss general ideas, maybe some threads spun off into IMOI for specific mechanics, and we can get this thing done, or at least incrementally improved.

Failing that, I vote for either Book of Gears or Tome of Virtue next, since work has gone down those paths.

Also, we don't specifically need Frank's say-so onto what goes in to each Tome; we can take the concept and run with it in our own directions. If we want a way for peasant forces to spontaneously and temporarily produce leveled people in the Tome of Virtue, then we put one in because we need it.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:38 am

All of the remaining tomes have "some content" done, but yeah, Book of Gears has the most content available actually written by Frank & K. Most of the others have only like a class written.

Then again, we also have some content which could be considered part of one of the above; Kantian Paladin for Tome of Virtue, the Spirit Ranger for Tome of Trees...

Think I'll collate everything in the IMOI and see how much could correspond to each of 'em.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:48 am

Tome of Virtue

Alignment Discussion: Good, Evil. Fanaticism.
Compromise, Coexistence, and Conversion
Paladin (think: full BAB abjuration/healing Warmage caster)
Cleric (think: a lot more like the Archivist/Wizard)
Bonus Core Classes (Sohei, Celestial Conduit, White Mage)
Prestige Classes
Feats, Spheres, and Spells
Miracle Rewrite
Celestials
Gods and Divinity
Revised Diplomancy Rules
Celestial and Precelestial Economics
High Adventure on the Upper Planes

Tome of Trees

Nature/Biology/Plants
Food, Disease, and Resources
Bard
Druid
Ranger
Bonus Core Classes (Spirit Shaman, Witch)
Prestige Classes
Feats and Spells
Enchantment in D&D
Fey
Plant Type Monsters
Wilderness Adventure

Tome of Tiamat

Power Sources
Magic Physics
Warlock
[*[ Warmage
Bonus Core Classes (Elementalist, Firemage, Puppeteer, Snowscaper)
Prestige Classes
Feats and Spells and Spheres
Dragons
Elementals
Genies
Evocation Overhaul
High Adventure on the Inner Planes

-Username17

Caedrus · Post by **Caedrus** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:08 am

I'm especially interested in revised diplomacy rules. My own houserules are for the most part simply a stopgap in this regard.

TarkisFlux · Post by **TarkisFlux** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:29 am

Everyone's houserules are a stop gap or gentleman's agreement for that Caedrus. While I'd love to see some serious work on it, I expect it'll be among the most contentious items on that list. It's not like anyone here really even agrees on the barest outline of a resolution mechanic: MTP, one roll to determine, or a complete 'encounter' mechanic. Hell, the diplomacy section may as well include all 3 in some fashion with instructions to "pick the setup that works best for the game elements you wish to emphasize".

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:31 pm

Hmm, I wouldn't mind tackling a few of the base classes as a starting point.

I'm picturing the Sohei similar to the one in OA, except useful, so a full BAB semi-divine caster (Bard progression?) with a Rightous Frenzy ability that possibly works similar to that of the RoW Barbarian, but less of it? Maybe add the option to, when in the Rightous Frenzy, cast their spells still (if only the offensive ones) and boost their effect, and perhaps add some random bullshit Stages of Enlightenment.

And the Witch could be fun, basically an Enchanter/Transmuter with an Evil Eye ability and the ability to blight the lands.

I'm assuming a War Mage re-write would either be "You're a War Mage, let's make your evokations relevant and make you a scary damage dealer/provide special effects on your damage dealing" or "You're a War Mage. You help people win wars. Invisible flying squads? YES. Creating vast amounts of food and water? Damn straight. Making trenches and blowing people up? Sure, why not."

Which do we like the sound of more?

At any rate, I'll see about hammering out some ideas for the Witch and Sohei, then posting them so people can argue about the specifics and the general idea, and bounce things about until they sit right.

Count Arioch the 28th · Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:55 pm

I had a sohei rewrite. It sucked, but here's the basics:

1. Full BaB

2. Was not penalized for wearing heavy armor at level 3 and gained +10 speed a couple more times over 20 levels.

3. Dropped the frenzy mechanic and just let it flurry with whatever they were proficient with. (The class started with limited weapons, but if they somehow became proficient in more weapons I honestly didn't care if they could flurry with them)

4. Gave it untyped bonuses to AC ovr 20 levels.

5. Kept nearly everything else.

However, the class needed something to do at higher levels, as I have never had the talent for writing classes that actually did something at levels 10+.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:23 pm

I know how hunting-gathering works, so I can contribute some of that for the Tome of Trees.

I also remember making an Ice-based Energy Mage class.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:48 pm

Hm. I'm presuming the White Mage is supposed to be a sort of "protect and restore" version of the Fire Mage/Marshall/etc., but relying on (meaningfully large) healing powers and abjuration-type effects, rather than inspiration (like the Marshal) or offensive/control powers (like the Fire Mage/Puppeteer/Snowshaper).

I'll take a whack at it.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:28 pm

Were we going to combine spell lists for the divine and arcane spellcasters somewhere down the line? I can try working on making Evocation less suck, because I like cool abilities with my blastan games.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:38 pm

Mask_De_H wrote:Were we going to combine spell lists for the divine and arcane spellcasters somewhere down the line?

I'm not sure what you could mean by this. There isn't an "Arcane Caster Spell List" or "Divine Caster Spell List" - there's a "Wizard/Sorceror List" and a "Cleric List" and a "Druid List" and so on. There might be spells that just happen to only be on a particular Divine or Arcane spellcaster's class list, but that's just because they happen to only be on that list. You could totally take Righteous Might and drop it on a new arcane caster and it just works.

If you mean "take all the spells and list them in one place" - other than the copyright issues of actually posting non-OGL spell descriptions, that's just a matter of, well, taking all the spells and putting them in one place.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:55 pm

Quantumboost wrote:
Mask_De_H wrote:Were we going to combine spell lists for the divine and arcane spellcasters somewhere down the line?
I'm not sure what you could mean by this. There isn't an "Arcane Caster Spell List" or "Divine Caster Spell List" - there's a "Wizard/Sorceror List" and a "Cleric List" and a "Druid List" and so on. There might be spells that just happen to only be on a particular Divine or Arcane spellcaster's class list, but that's just because they happen to only be on that list. You could totally take Righteous Might and drop it on a new arcane caster and it just works.

If you mean "take all the spells and list them in one place" - other than the copyright issues of actually posting non-OGL spell descriptions, that's just a matter of, well, taking all the spells and putting them in one place.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Combining the spell lists of each kind of spellcaster and removing the stupid.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:36 pm

Mask_De_H wrote:Yeah, that's what I meant. Combining the spell lists of each kind of spellcaster and removing the stupid.

I highly doubt it. After all, the White Mage (Grand Wizard?) shouldn't be casting from the "divine spellcasting list" or the "arcane spellcasting list" or the "spellcasting list". The trend in the Tome series is to give each casting class its own list, plus the option of cherry picking from some unbounded but restricted set (like 'necromancy spells').

The goal of the Tome series seems to be 'compatibility without stupid' and 'replacement without removal', with the exception of really bad things like wish and polymorph. A character from any 3e campaign should be able to hop into a Tome game with no changes to the character sheet needed (although some changes might be desired).

TavishArtair · Post by **TavishArtair** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:48 pm

As an oddity, while I'm sure Frank & K pulled from the community on some level to help write their stuff, I would ask that we use a different nomenclature for the "Gaming Den Tomes" even if it's just a subtle changeup, so as to disambiguate, at least within our community, between the books that F&K concepted but never realized, and the stuff that we're writing.

Unless K shows up and starts posting again, as it were.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:50 pm

But aren't we finishing the unmade Tomes Tavish? Why would we change the nomenclature?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:44 am

TavishArtair wrote:As an oddity, while I'm sure Frank & K pulled from the community on some level to help write their stuff, I would ask that we use a different nomenclature for the "Gaming Den Tomes" even if it's just a subtle changeup, so as to disambiguate, at least within our community, between the books that F&K concepted but never realized, and the stuff that we're writing.

Unless K shows up and starts posting again, as it were.

The entire point is to claim ownership of the Tome series in such a way that we the community have a total rewrite of 3.5 in Tome form.

While it may be true that Frank & K are contributed more than half of the material/insight, it would still be part of the community material on the same general level.

I have a dream, of a time in the distant future, when people still play 3.5 D&D, but mostly Tome games. And lo they doth speak of the Gaming Den Tomes, and not the Frank & K Tomes. Despite Frank and K having started the project and done most of it.

The point is that they should be the Tomes, and we shouldn't be ashamed to call them the Tomes. And we'll do some stuff differently than Frank & K, like we could use the Kantian Paladin in place of his envisioned Paladin (I don't recommend it, because the Kantian Paladin, serves it's purpose well, but it's purpose is not to reflect the sort of thing generally in the Tome of Virtue) and of course our write ups of all sorts of things will be different. I for one think we should develop something besides spheres to represent good outsiders, but that's all niggling details.

I want this to really truly be the completion of the Tomes, and any nod we make in the name to it being different, or worse, inferior, is just going to drive a steak into the project. And while it's more of a zombie than a vampire, a steak through the chest doesn't do anybody much good.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:51 am

I'm not too strong of a designer, but you know how to contact me if you really want my opinion, Kaelik.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:58 am

Update: Oh, yeah, I have the Manual of Making Things to contribute to the Book of Gears.

Thinking about what I have so far, I have the conceptual things down.

The problem I'm encountering on the Manual is that I'm down to writing fiddly details, which I suck at. I can tell you that having superior materials and drama going for you will stop the crafting DC from piling as, and it'll knock down the creation times. I can tell you that my hazy idea for the creation time reduction may be in days, or it may be in percentages.

Also, I need to do some researching into how long it takes. Does anyone know how long it takes to make a set of plate mail, for example? I figure a sword could be made in much less than a day, and the rest of the time spent your various creation means, whether it's casting the spell at it or inscribing runes...Or possibly 'creating' a magic weapon by, to use an old example, stabbing it into the Sun Emperor.

Anyway, if anyone has any ideas in that direction and believe he or she can do it well, I'd be glad to bow to superior talent.

koz · Post by **koz** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:11 am

Lol, Kaelik, I'll race ya. But do feel free to use my work and my talents as and when you need.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:35 am

So it can be Gaming Den/Frank & K Tomes, just like GNAA/Linux.

ggroy · Post by **ggroy** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:38 am

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:40 am

Personally, since neither K nor myself refer to Tome material as Frank & K (nor K & Frank) Tome Material, I am more than happy to have it called Gaming Den Tome material. I've always felt weird about people putting my name in the title.

-Username17

The Gaming Den

It's Time to put up or shut up.

It's Time to put up or shut up.

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