[4e] Psion Preview
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- Psychic Robot
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[4e] Psion Preview
http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/P ... s_1-30.htm
For those of you not interested in reading that, the psion looks like one of the few classes in 4e that's not a giant turd because--wait for it!--it has interesting mechanics.
The playtest psion is a telepath, allowing him two powers:
1. Distract, a range 10 minor action power that causes the target of the power to grant combat advantage to the next person to attack it. The duration is one round, and you can target two creatures at level 11 and three creatures at level 21.
2. Send Thoughts: 25-words-or-less free-action telepathy with a range of 20. The target can respond as a free action. (Does this mean that the psion can send infinite 25-word messages in a round?)
Here we have two interesting, flavorful powers, which is a +1 to 4e. And the best part is that one of them isn't combat-based.
Oh, and then there comes the augmentation, a nod to 3.5 psionics.
You get power points as you level, but you do not gain encounter powers. Instead, you gain at-will and daily powers. You start off with two at-will powers, gain a third at level three, and then replace them with higher-level at-will powers as you go along. You can augment these powers with your power points (which refresh after a short or extended rest), allowing you a choice in how you use your encounter-equivalent powers.
Why this is good:
1. As 3e has shown us, different mechanics for each class are a good thing.
2. It fights blandification.
3. No longer are you going to go daily-encounter-at-will-at-will-at-will for the combat! You're given options, delicious options.
4. Lots of mind-control powers and stuns, dazes, and force damage--the kind of thing you'd expect from a psionic character.
Why this is bad for 4e:
1. Many of the pro-4e crowd are in an uproar about this abomination. MECHANICS DEVIATING FROM THE NORM? Burn the witch! Cut her throat! Spill her blood!
2. "This is just change for change's sake!"
3. When the introduction of new mechanics started with 3e, it was the testing ground for a new edition. While I'm doubtful that 4e is about to give up the ghost here and now, this gives me hope for 5e and D&D in general.
For those of you not interested in reading that, the psion looks like one of the few classes in 4e that's not a giant turd because--wait for it!--it has interesting mechanics.
The playtest psion is a telepath, allowing him two powers:
1. Distract, a range 10 minor action power that causes the target of the power to grant combat advantage to the next person to attack it. The duration is one round, and you can target two creatures at level 11 and three creatures at level 21.
2. Send Thoughts: 25-words-or-less free-action telepathy with a range of 20. The target can respond as a free action. (Does this mean that the psion can send infinite 25-word messages in a round?)
Here we have two interesting, flavorful powers, which is a +1 to 4e. And the best part is that one of them isn't combat-based.
Oh, and then there comes the augmentation, a nod to 3.5 psionics.
You get power points as you level, but you do not gain encounter powers. Instead, you gain at-will and daily powers. You start off with two at-will powers, gain a third at level three, and then replace them with higher-level at-will powers as you go along. You can augment these powers with your power points (which refresh after a short or extended rest), allowing you a choice in how you use your encounter-equivalent powers.
Why this is good:
1. As 3e has shown us, different mechanics for each class are a good thing.
2. It fights blandification.
3. No longer are you going to go daily-encounter-at-will-at-will-at-will for the combat! You're given options, delicious options.
4. Lots of mind-control powers and stuns, dazes, and force damage--the kind of thing you'd expect from a psionic character.
Why this is bad for 4e:
1. Many of the pro-4e crowd are in an uproar about this abomination. MECHANICS DEVIATING FROM THE NORM? Burn the witch! Cut her throat! Spill her blood!
2. "This is just change for change's sake!"
3. When the introduction of new mechanics started with 3e, it was the testing ground for a new edition. While I'm doubtful that 4e is about to give up the ghost here and now, this gives me hope for 5e and D&D in general.
Last edited by Psychic Robot on Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:You do not seem to do anything.Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
- Psychic Robot
- Prince
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3.5 psionics work fairly well. They're more balanced than Core D&D (which is kind of like saying that volcanic eruptions are less dangerous than a nuclear apocalypse--it doesn't make anyone in Pompeii feel any better).
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:You do not seem to do anything.Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
- Psychic Robot
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- Prince
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I dunno, just seems like this class isn't really going to be about more options, but rather just the ability to spam the same option (whatever you deem best) over and over again.
The problem is that the game still lacks much tactical diversity and the options don't seem especially meaningfully different, especially considering every attack is Int vs. Will.
The problem is that the game still lacks much tactical diversity and the options don't seem especially meaningfully different, especially considering every attack is Int vs. Will.
- Psychic Robot
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- Psychic Robot
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Welcome to the rest of 4e.RandomCasualty2 wrote:I dunno, just seems like this class isn't really going to be about more options, but rather just the ability to spam the same option (whatever you deem best) over and over again.
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:You do not seem to do anything.Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
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- Prince
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Yeah, I don't know. I mean, 4E would work okay if they did this.ggroy wrote: Maybe that's what the designers' intentions were from the very beginning.
Dress up the same few cookie cutter mechanical structures, and repeatedly change the fluff "skins" on them. Rinse and repeat.
1. Give everyone one good type of attack they do well that has great effects. For instance, the psion's attacks against will are very powerful.
2. Give people a couple secondary attack types that have moderate effects.
This way people would dominate against creatures they're supposed to beat (Psion beats low will monsters), but they have to make choices against monsters with strong will. Do they want to go for their big attack, or use something weaker somewhat outside their specialty because it has a greater chance of landing?
Unfortunately, so many classes just don't even have that option. It seriously is just a no brainer to pick your best ability and spam it.
I'm rather partial to Dreamscarred Press' products. They tend to know their shit and have some interesting classes and ideas.ggroy wrote:Any 3pp's produce a worthwhile psionics supplement?
I largely ignored most 3pp splatbooks for the most part during the 3E/3.5E era. Though I did pick up some adventures made by 3pp's.
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- CatharzGodfoot
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So how do multiclassed psions work? My 4e-fu is weak, but Psion/Warlord seems like a natural. However, taking a warlord paragon path would seem to put you in an inconsistent state.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
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- Invincible Overlord
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PR, I have no idea how you can say that Psionics was 'good' or 'the best' in any context. Sure, it's true from a relative standpoint 3E psionics were better than 1E psionics, but it's completely misleading.
Psionic points were one of the worst ideas ever implemented by Dungeons and Dragons. It's not quite as bad racial level limits, but definitely worse than polymorph dumpster-diving.
Psionic points were one of the worst ideas ever implemented by Dungeons and Dragons. It's not quite as bad racial level limits, but definitely worse than polymorph dumpster-diving.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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- Invincible Overlord
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Why?
Vancian spellcasting is balanced. Spellcasting is not balanced for a huge variety of reasons, but the basic idea is. You can say that it's cumbersome or boring or contrived, but balanced is another thing.
Book of Nine Swords uses a 'Vancian' spellcasting system. Is that unbalanced or worse than power points? Is it?
Vancian spellcasting is balanced. Spellcasting is not balanced for a huge variety of reasons, but the basic idea is. You can say that it's cumbersome or boring or contrived, but balanced is another thing.
Book of Nine Swords uses a 'Vancian' spellcasting system. Is that unbalanced or worse than power points? Is it?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Because it's stupid that if Thor loves my cleric so much that he gives said cleric the ability to raise the dead, but if he asks to walk on air, it's "fuck you, Hogarth, you should have thought of that when you were praying this morning".Lago PARANOIA wrote:Why?
(Maybe I should've been more specific that it's the "prepared spells" aspect of Vancian spellcasting that I dislike, not spell slots per se.)
Last edited by hogarth on Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- CatharzGodfoot
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And why is that bad for a wizard?hogarth wrote:Because it's stupid that if Thor loves my cleric so much that he gives said cleric the ability to raise the dead, but if he asks to walk on air, it's "fuck you, Hogarth, you should have thought of that when you were praying this morning".Lago PARANOIA wrote:Why?
(Maybe I should've been more specific that it's the "prepared spells" aspect of Vancian spellcasting that I dislike, not spell slots per se.)
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
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- Invincible Overlord
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That's a thematic issue (one I personally don't have a problem with) rather than a balance issue, which given all of the balance issues D&D has automatically pushes it way down the chart of 'D&D problems'.Because it's stupid that Thor loves my cleric so much that he lets me raise the dead, but if he asks to walk on air, it's "fuck you, Hogarth, you should have thought of that when you were praying this morning".
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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- Serious Badass
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Vancian spellcasting works like playing Magic cards, because it was originally playing cards. That means that it creates tactical questions and frequently involves people slapping down a weak spell because they might as well or slappng down a very large spell when they are almost depleted because that is what they have left. This mimics the kinds of spellcasting people do in books very well.hogarth wrote:Vancian spellcasting is worse.Lago PARANOIA wrote:Psionic points were one of the worst ideas ever implemented by Dungeons and Dragons.
Spell Points just has people spam their biggest bestest thing over and over again until they run out, and then they either give up entirely or switch to a piddly thing that uses up little or no mana until they get to recharge. In short, spell points generate the kind of SpamSpamRest cycle that Diablo II characters engage in.
In short: Spell Points fucking suck and are basically the worst system of rationing power even before we get to the fact that it involves large amounts of iterative addition and people are constantly fucking it up and slowling down the game. Spell point casters are more boring, slow the game down more, and less tactical than spell slot casters. No meaningful advantages to the system exist.
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Then I don't know what your balance is with psionic points, unless you want to argue that they're not as good as spell slots 99% of the time. The psion is really just a jumped-up sorcerer with the Versatile Spellcaster feat, after all.Lago PARANOIA wrote: That's a thematic issue (one I personally don't have a problem with) rather than a balance issue, which given all of the balance issues D&D has automatically pushes it way down the chart of 'D&D problems'.
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- Invincible Overlord
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Psionic powers are simultaneously too weak and too powerful.Then I don't know what your balance is with psionic points, unless you want to argue that they're not as good as spell slots 99% of the time. The psion is really just a jumped-up sorcerer with the Versatile Spellcaster feat, after all.
Too weak end of the scale: Vancian spellcasting by design (otherwise you don't have a Vancian spellcasting system) has weaker spells get more powerful as you gain in levels. This is to prevent situations where people never waste their time using a single 2d4+1 magic missile, because on some level magic missile will always have a use. Not so for psionics. Unless you augment a spell power, the lower-level powers pretty much suck and will get you killed. So people use augments, which cuts into the pool for their higher-level powers. But then why wouldn't you just use the higher-level powers?
Too strong end of the scale: In Vancian spellcasting, you can't trade magic missiles for fireball. This is to prevent people from casting nothing but fireball. Psionic points definitionally have the power points you used to use for Verve power up Psionic Whip. So combined with the above system people do nothing but spam their strongest-level shit. Because of the whole 'trade magic missile for fireball' thing going on, they can nova for longer than primary spellcasters, but then they become totally useless.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.