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[Tome of Trees] The Witch
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:17 am    Post subject: [Tome of Trees] The Witch Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Witch

Fantasy literature has always had witches. Usually they are evil and fly on broomsticks, cackling and cursing/poisoning the heroines into a coma or death, so that the prince charming can save them and fuck them, hopefully in that order. Occasionally they're just generically evil - they're bad because they're witches, but they don't particularly do anything that evil, and sometimes there are good witches.

The witch in D&D draws upon the various fantasy sources, along with an option to be a good, nature-friendly, curse-removing witch for all the hippy wicca kids out there. They gain the ability to fly, they can use cauldrons to scry and make magic potions, they have a ritual under the full moon, and they have a scary evil eye. Also, there is the mandatory Monty Python reference, and they have spellcasting which is by no means shabby.

The witch can happily be played by beginners: they have Save or Lose spells and save-penalising spells. It's as simple as "pump your DCs up high and go wild". By the same token, they have enough oddball spells there that more experienced players can go around turning the forest into their personal army, or turning a room of people into statues, reshaping them into other objects, then covering them in symbols and adding sympathy so people go and touch them. Maybe even turning the morphed statues back into flesh. Did you ever want a vase made of human flesh?

Hit Die: 1d6
Skill Points: 6+Int
Base Attack Bonus: Poor
Saving Throws: Good Fortitude and Willpower
Proficiencies: Simple Weapons and Light Armour
Armour and Spellcasting: no ASF for armour the Witch is proficient in

The Witch's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are, Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana, dungeoneering, nature, religon, local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis) and Swim (Str).

Ability Scores: the Witch wants a reasonably high Charisma, for the spell-like and Supernatural abilities, but also wants a good Intelligence or Wisdom, for spellcasting (they can choose which one). Maintaining both should not be hard, and the physical ability scores are practically optional.


Level:Abilities:
01Evil Eye, Spellcasting
02Animal Form or Familiar, Wild Empathy
03Brew Potion
04Trickery, Float on Water
05Evil Eyes
06Mass Brewing, Pluck Poison
07Dream Mastery
08Trickery
09Evil Gaze
10Cauldron Scrying
11Flight
12Trickery, Hag Bite or Bibbity Bobbity Boo
13Ritual of Youth
14Eye of Newt
15Presence of Witchery
16Trickery
17Craft Heartstone
18Hag Laughter or Rise of the Triffids
19Elixer of Life and Death
20Trickery


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Spell List:
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New and Altered Spells:
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...awesome, Firefox recognises Triffids as a word.
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Surgo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Haven't gone through the entire class yet, but I think the 6 hour limit on Brew Potion might really kill its usefulness. You can't really make something to prepare for the day ahead; it takes an entire hour so you can't really stop in the middle of the day when you need it to make one either. Since witches cast spells spontaneously, it's not as if they need to stop and make a potion of something they didn't have prepared.

I think the six hours probably just needs to be extended. Maybe to 24.
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CatharzGodfoot
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Witches usually have familiars, and sometimes crazy ones. I'd ditch animal form in favor of call familiar, and let them treat cohorts as familiars. There should be no xp penalty for the death of a familiar.

You should also make a note of whether Tricks can be taken multiple times. And for spells you should probably add mirage arcana, wall of thorns, tiny hut, and the like. What a great segue into Lurker in the Swarm.

AND THE BROOMSTICK IS NOT OPTIONAL!!!
...although any old object should probably work, whether it's a staff, carpet, or bathtub.
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Surgo
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would not ditch animal form, which is also a really classic face of witches. Maybe the option to have one or the other.
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CatharzGodfoot
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Surgo wrote:
I would not ditch animal form, which is also a really classic face of witches. Maybe the option to have one or the other.


That's true, but druids are very similar to witches and already get animal form. To me it seems like too much overlap.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Next you're going to complain that Mages get Animal Form, too, right?

-Crissa
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CatharzGodfoot
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:
Next you're going to complain that Mages get Animal Form, too, right?

-Crissa


Touché, but I'd be more comfortable giving witches polymorph than wild shape.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, what's the difference?

-Crissa
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CatharzGodfoot
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:
So, what's the difference?

-Crissa


Well, what's the difference between wizards and druids? In one case it's just one of many options. It's not a focus, because no investment is made in polymorphing--unless that's specifically what you choose to do. If it's a class ability, the investment has been made. If you don't use it (and instead use invisibility, or fly, or summon monster) you're a chump for spending limited resources for the same effect that you might have got from the already purchased animal form.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I really fail to understand your comparison. Don't wizards get more spells, therefore having more variable options, instead of a predefined constant?

Spells are just class abilities you get to choose every day.

-Crissa
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CatharzGodfoot
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:
I really fail to understand your comparison. Don't wizards get more spells, therefore having more variable options, instead of a predefined constant?

Spells are just class abilities you get to choose every day.

-Crissa


Yes, I think you understand my point exactly. I don't think that animal form should be a predefined constant among witches. I am amenable to the idea that other people think that animal form witches are so iconic that a spell won't cut it. I just don't hold that opinion myself. I feel that witches should be more like Lost Souls rangers than like druids.




P.S.

Hag Laughter is fucking amazing. Which gets me thinking: I don't like animal form, but making this a transformative class where the witch becomes a night hag (or night hag-like) might be really neat. They already get some night hag-like abilities, like dream haunting and evil eye. I'd throw in change shape (small or medium humanoid), and maybe a heartsone and/or the ability to make a hag eye with the aid of two familiars or other witches. And maybe a monstrous hag form with a bite or claw attacks. I dunno. That should probably come at about the same time as the ability to eat babies to stay young.
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Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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Surgo
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay, I read the full class now.

I like it a lot. It's really good, really well-done. I have two questions though:
* Evil Gaze: is this an actual gaze attack that only effects people in the cone and follows the mechanics of a gaze attack, or does it require an action?
* Hag Laughter: What kind of action is it?

From what I've seen you've done a really good job of picking the spell list, but I think Polymorph (the non-baleful type) would be an appropriate addition.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay, I'll go through this one person at a time:

Surgo - good idea. The reason was of course to stop them from stockpiling "free spells", but if I extend it to 24 hours then yes, they can brew potions the night before but that's the extent of their shenanigans.

Evil Gaze still requires a Swift Action to use, so I guess it's not a true gaze attack, but any feats and abilities that affect gaze attacks should be able to affect it. Hag laughter is a Standard Action, because they need to work up a proper cackle for it.

Catharz: I see no problem with giving them the option between "turn into an animal" and "have an animal friend that isn't an XP sink, if you gain a Cohort your animal friend can be a dire bear or whatever". I suppose it wouldn't hurt for the same trick to be taken multiple times and have the benefits stack, at least for some.

I'll add those spells. I don't want them to have too many, but by the same token, some spells are crying out to be had. I'll make a note that Tiny Hut may be constructed of gingerbread and thus edible (while still as resistant to nature as before). And I'll make "an object for flying" mandatory, so they can have broomsticks, vacuum cleaners and whatever.

Granting Night Hag abilities over time could in fact be pretty cool, yeah. Maybe even let level 20 have the ability to actually become a Night Hag, seeing as no-one cares what boosts you get at that level.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There we go, the Witch is updated.

I also specified that Evil Gaze and Hag Laughter require actions.




Sample Witch with recommended spells to cast for DM ease:

Olga
Neutral Evil Human Witch 6 (CR 6)
Str 8 Dex 13 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 14
HP: 27/27 (6 HD)
Init: +1
Speed: 30'

AC: 13 (+1 Dexterity, +2 Dodge)
-flat 12
-touch 13

BAB/Grapple: +3/+2
-melee +2
-ranged +4

Fort +7 Ref +4 Will +9

Feats: Elusive Target, Dreadful Demeanor, Ability Focus: Evil Eye, Many Faced

Skills: Bluff +11, Disguise +16, Intimidate +18, Know: Nature +9, Sense Motive +12, Spellcraft +9

Features:
Roll twice and pick best for Disguises, Nystul's Magic Aura (DC 15)
Demoralise as Move Action, remain Shakened while in sight
Foes get no flanking/higher ground bonus
Evil Eye (Swift, DC 17, 6 rounds), Animal Form, Wild Empathy +8
Brew Potion, Float on Water, Mass Brewing, Pluck Poison
Evil Eyes (Swift, DC 17, 6 rounds)
Trickery: Poison Immunity

Spells:
4 Cantrips/day, DC 13 (recommended: Dancing Lights, Touch of Fatigue)
4 First Level/day, DC 14 (recommended: Command, Faerie Fire, Ray of Enfeeblement)
4 Second Level/day, DC 15 (recommended: Blindness/Deafness, False Life, Summon Swarm)
3 Third Level/day, DC 16 (recommended: Bestow Curse, Deep Slumber)

Equipment:
Cloak of Resistance +1
Sassone Leaf Residue (on fingernails, touch +2, DC 16, 2d12HP/1d6 Con)
Terinav Root (on teeth/lips, touch +2 in a grapple, DC 16, 1d6 Dex/2d6 Dex)
Red Slippers
Carrot tied to nose with string
Old rusty scythe used only for CdG.
Cauldron
Pre-brewed potion of False Life

Tactics:
Olga begins Disguised, and in a pre-prepared Tiny Hut. There may very well be Dancing Lights floating around. While still disguised, she will attempt to get close enough to dose someone with poison - once for each hand, and then another if she bites or kisses the target.

When combat begins, the usual routine is to use a Move Action to Demoralise a target (+18), then use Evil Eyes on them and one other, or alternatively just Evil Eyes on the one person if they seem the kind that might be immune to Fear. She then goes on a cursing spree, handing out curses, disease, poison and blindness/deafness, as well as sleep, until everyone is incapacitated. If foes are asleep, she will gladly perform a Coup de Grace (8d4-4). If foes are more heavily incapacitated, she will move them to the cauldron so as to boil and eat them. Nobody knows why.

If it looks like she's going to be defeated but enemies are afflicted by her effects, she may bargain for her life, offering to remove these conditions if they promise to let her live.
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Draco_Argentum
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think Immune to Divinations and Immune to [Mind Affecting] effects are vastly radder than say energy resistance.

I also think the hag laughter and hag bite levels are crap for the tree hugging vegan witches. Neither of those abilities really fit the concept so its like the class almost supports friendly witch but stops a little short.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hm...What can treehugging vegans do to people that'd be unpleasant...

Well, maybe the Nice Witches can make the enemy's, uh, 'system' purge itself of all impurities. Leaving them fresh and healthy and clean...and also Nauseated and having to duck-walk until they can get a heavy-duty cleanup.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!


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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Did you know that I'd rather not include Power Word: Shit in my games?

As for the lack of options for good witches, I'm doing my best but the fact is that good witches are uncommon and a little bit lame. My knowledge of witches is moronic wiccagoths who just need to be punched in the face (I am including Willow here), and evil witches as seen in fairy tales.
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That was kinda my point. I mean, if you're trying to satisfy the Witches-Are-Nice crowd, there's not much to work with to make it viable in a fight that's going to be impressive.

I suppose you could convert the enemy to peaceful nature-worshipers who practice homeopathic medicine...But, again, lame.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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CatharzGodfoot
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tree hugging vegan witches use hag bite to be able to eat the tree that they're hugging, and hag cackle to get back at those vile meat eaters.

Speaking of witch, I just bought my sister a carnivorous plant familiar. Maybe the familiar options need to be expanded (she isn't religious, but she is vegan). A hommunculus, topiary guardian, or 'bramble buddy' would all be neat.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I weakened a couple of the Trickery options so that they weren't the obvious choices, because the alternative would be a bit too good.

Also, my gf suggested a few things for Good Witches, so now we have Bibbity Bobbity Boo (as an alternative to Hag Bite) and Rise of the Triffids (as an alternative to Hag Laughter).

Thoughts?
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Draco_Argentum
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

BBB is a decent move. Shambling mounds don't really scream level 18 to me.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Could you suggest a better legion of plant monsters? I'm sure they're out there, but I'm too tired to look for them.
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
Did you know that I'd rather not include Power Word: Shit in my games?


I don't see why not.

Tendriculous is a witchy kind of plant.
Shambling Mound is overdone, I advise against.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Tendridiculous is like the worst monster ever. They have regen that is canceled by bludgeoning and acid. Seriously, what the fuck? Axes anyone? No? Fuck. Shambling Mounds don't have the WTF template but they gain hit points from electricity meaning that they are totally unbalanced under player control. We aren't talking about how an Uttercold Assault Necromancer can put up a wall of uttercold and have skeleton archers fuck people up while healing up from a defended position - we're talking about how a puppeteer can sit there power charging your mound with his shocker (man that sounds dirty) up o infinity hit points. It's no good.

Embarrassing as it is, you probably want to bust out the Monster Manual 3 and actually use the Battlebriar. I... never thought I would say that.




In other news: Bibbity Bobbity Boo needs a duration. Animate Objects has a duration of essentially "one combat" so transforming turnips into exy harem girls would be worthless. I suggest building them in with a natural duration that goes to the corners of the day (dawn, dusk, noon, midnight). Durations in general need an overhaul into something that involves less round counting - and the Witch is a perfect and iconic class to flagship such a move.

-Frank
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Frank, if you throw enough summoned Tendriculii at an encounter, it doesn't matter.
It's just a side ability for a character. A backup and distraction.

I'd stat up an Abyssal T-plant swarm right now but don't have time before class.

If you mean the T-plant abilities are too good (worst? to fight, or to use?), there's always room for a quick hack-job edit...


.



Edit: On a second perusal, it doesn't seem to be much more than 2 abilities to change or remove.

Swallow Whole/Paralysis - This can go right out. Not needed.
The status effect lasts too long on a single save and that's no fun.
"Fighter, you're frozen for *rolls* twelve minutes. No you don't get another save. No you can't fight it off. Take your 15 Acid right now."
I'd leave the bite, but this... this must go.

Regen 10 (acid or bludgeon) - I believe Frank's word choice had thrown me off. IMO, this is atrocious implementation of an ability.
It's like a Gygaxian puzzle monster; you either have the solution or not.
At least humanoids can always punch for bludg- oh wait, it will just grapple and eat you.
BALEETED.


Sans Swallow and Regen, it's not far off from a zombie plant.
I dub thee the Sabbat Croagh.


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