The Gaming Den

IGTN wrote:Really, I could see a good argument for doing away with class skills entirely, except for certain restricted skills (UMD, for instance). All they do is force classes to stay even more strictly in their niche, and class features already do that.

Yeah, I'm definately in favor or "all skills are class skills for everyone" But if we do it, we need to do it. And it's one of those changes that makes other people use all our stuff, in that if the class has no class skills, it can't be easily brought into a regular 3.5 game.

Yeah, if nothing else most aspects of the Tome game are completely modular and compatible with 3e.

Just do what I do and forget Class Skills even exist*. Then if a DM actually notices (they don't), tell them to suck their own dick. Done.

*I seriously do forget about it.

Koumei wrote:Just do what I do and forget Class Skills even exist*. Then if a DM actually notices (they don't), tell them to suck their own dick. Done.

*I seriously do forget about it.

Fair enough. My DM already agreed to the class. Though I think he wants to remove spells that he doesn't have access to. Where are the spells from exactly?

As for class skills, I just put down a bunch of knowledges concentration spellcraft and spot and listen. I figure it will be fine.

In the words of Jesus, "I dunno, lol"

Let's see if I can do it from memory:

0: Rouse (PHB2) Stand (PHB2)

1: Mass Rouse (Mass version of above), Mass Stand (ditto)

2: Jet of Steam (CDiv or Spell Compendium or something), Incendiary Slime (Complete Garbage)

3: Caustic Mire (Complete Garbage), Caustic Smoke (same), Horrid Sickness (ditto)

5: Deltane's Fiery Tentacles (a FR one. It's EBT, except everyone in the area takes CL in Fire Damage every round, Ref half. Those grabbed by tentacles get no save, they just take the fire damage. Up the ass.), Fire and Brimstone (probably Complete Garbage, maybe PHB2), Lightning Leap (same), Nightmare Terrain (Complete Garbage), Tactical Teleportation (no fucking clue. PHB2?), Storm of Fire and Ice (PHB2?)

7: Deadly Lahar (Spell Compendium)

8: Deadly Sunstroke (PHB2 or Complete Garbage)

9: Prismatic Deluge (as above), Towering Thunderhead (ditto)


Seriously, I basically just used core + CGarbage + SC + PHB2. Because they were within arm's reach.

I aspire to emulate that design philosophy.

Koumei wrote:Just do what I do and forget Class Skills even exist*. Then if a DM actually notices (they don't), tell them to suck their own dick. Done.

*I seriously do forget about it.

It's been a decade since I used them. 3.0's debut, really. We tried them and ditched them.

I had to resume using them as by Feybook coordinator's request (directive?) but other than that it's a waste of time.

No one fucking cares. If class skills are going to be restricted at all, they should be restricted by concept. And skills are so weaksauce that even the worst case scenario is incredibly tame.

The Paizo skill system overhaul is actually kind of good. Although there are certain things I find problematic with it, it is probably as a whole better than the official 3e version. Honestly, I don't think Paizo gives enough benefit to care about for having a skill be a class skill, but it does solve the problem of getting different amounts of skill ranks depending upon the order you take your classes - that's a step forward worth emulating.

If it were up to me, I'd make it so that you got a +1 trained skill bonus that increased to +3 if you had it as a class skill. And I would make it so that you couldn't put more than half your level (round up) into the skills that were not class skills. This would give people +2 in non-class skills at first level and +4 in class skills. And it would make diversifying at first level harder and diversifying later easier (just as pathfinder does), but it wouldn't make getting class skill status into something pointless.

In other news, I definitely think that a lot of kills should be combined or removed. Combining Move Silently and Hide into Stealth, folding Spellcraft into Knowledge Arcana, and folding Knowledge Nobility into Knowledge History all seem like obvious life choices.

-Username17

So how are we going to do this in the Tomes? Give all of Komei's classes "Class Skills: All"? I mean , I could see that, but it would look funny next to the classes that actually have class lists.

For what it's worth, I think we should bite the bullet and put in class skills, and add in a section about how a lot of us think that class skills are bullshit and should be ignored.

I don't think that we're quite ready to get rid of class skills, however. First some pruning would be needed: UMD, for example, would have to go the way of Wild Empathy. And that breaks backwards compatibility.

Even if you gave all skills to everyone, the worst you can do is Tumble and UMD. And most of the stuff you care about there is DC 15 or 20 anyways, so it's not as if you could not do that regardless.

No, Diplomacy doesn't count, only one person needs that.

So I say follow Koumei's lead and tell class skills to fuck right off.

So were is the Firespray spell from? I can't seem to find that in my D&D spell compendium (Not the book, a program I have that searches for spells)

...shit, I probably meant Burning Hands. I put that one in without even checking the core books, going by memory. Just be glad I didn't go "What's that weird force effect that always hits for damage no-one cares about? Oh, turnip missile!" or something.

And yeah, I think we should all make the move of "Tell class skills to fuck off", going against Frank's idea on this one. But if they really absolutely need class skills:

*Warmage: Know (Any), Spellcraft (or roll it into Arcana), Survival, Sense Motive, Concentration, Bluff

*Sohei: Know (Planes, Divine, History), Concentration, Tumble, Balance, Jump, Swim, Climb, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Diplomancy, Survival

*Witch: Survival, Concentration, Intimidate, Know (Arcana, Nature, Your Mum), Spellcraft (see above), Disguise, Bluff

*Prestige Classes: as the base class, plus thematic skills perhaps

I figure class skill lists should be kept for backwards compatibility. Keeps it modular/portable.

That said class skill lists are lame. Everyone damn should have UMD anyway just like everyone in a modern game has computer use.

At 5th level, it looks like the ability "Energy Effect (Acid and Electricity)" should be "Elemental Exchange (Acid and Electricity)" - and Elemental Exchange instead of Energy Exchange for levels 9 (Sonic) and 13 (Force, Negative). Unless I'm very very confused (true anyway)?

Draco_Argentum wrote:I figure class skill lists should be kept for backwards compatibility. Keeps it modular/portable.

That said class skill lists are lame. Everyone damn should have UMD anyway just like everyone in a modern game has computer use.

UMD isn't computer use. It's hardcore hacking. Everyone in D&D gets to use magic items. It's only the hackers who can fool a holy avenger into thinking they're paladins.

Roy wrote: So I say follow Koumei's lead and tell class skills to fuck right off.

Are you soapboxing for a "huzzah!"?

Anyway, the decision should be based on Tome's variant.
If Tome has class skills, and Warmage is a Tome class, it should fit in kind.
If Tome is instead shifted away from a 3e adaptation (Tome 2.0 and so on) and less backwards compatible, of which I'm in favor of regardless, then class skills are like earlobes; useless, unless you like dangling useless bits of crap from them.

sigma999 wrote:

Roy wrote: So I say follow Koumei's lead and tell class skills to fuck right off.

Are you soapboxing for a "huzzah!"?

What are you talking about?

Quantumboost wrote:At 5th level, it looks like the ability "Energy Effect (Acid and Electricity)" should be "Elemental Exchange (Acid and Electricity)" - and Elemental Exchange instead of Energy Exchange for levels 9 (Sonic) and 13 (Force, Negative). Unless I'm very very confused (true anyway)?

Yeah, you're right. Fixed.

A thought I had about this class - should Elemental Exchange count as having Energy Substitution for the purpose of qualifying for things? Like Lord of the Uttercold and the Uttercold Assault Necromancer from ToN?

If so, the following could be added to that ability:

"This ability counts as having the Energy Substitution feat for the purpose of qualifying for prestige classes, feats, etc. which specifically require Energy Substitution."

No Control Winds? It a seriously an iconic warmage spell (think Zhuge Liang) and calling down a tornado is one of the biggest battlefield destruction abilities available.

Koumei wrote: Just be glad I didn't go "What's that weird force effect that always hits for damage no-one cares about? Oh, turnip missile!" or something.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Vegetable

Okay...

Energy Sub: yes, it counts as that - after all, I'm not actually saying "TOME ONLY!", there is some non-Tome stuff that works well (otherwise we woudn't have bothered fixing 3.5 and instead just gone with something else). I'll fix that later when I'm not suffering a bout of laziness. Besides, I have like 30+ pieces of art to complete.

Control Winds: I'm sold on it - I probably just skipped over it amongst the eight million spells. See above for when it gets added.

Turnips: right, from now on, I'll randomly name spells and it's up to everyone else to figure out what I meant. Let's give it a test:

Shadowy Raphanizein
Throw a Fridge at Him
Liar Liar

Koumei wrote:Energy Sub: yes, it counts as that - after all, I'm not actually saying "TOME ONLY!", there is some non-Tome stuff that works well

Except none of it has Energy Sub as a pre req. But whatever.

*shrug* I'm not the one who suggested it in the first place, and I can't be fucked checking my books to verify the accuracy of others.