Extra Combat Maneuvers

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Dominicius
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Extra Combat Maneuvers

Post by Dominicius »

For a while now I've been putting off doing any real work on the retreat rules but that in turn also gave me time to think about the about Combat Maneuvers in general. So in this time I've really had a host of other ideas that I have been following up on, so I've decided to start a separate thread for all this stuff.

I'll warn you, most of this stuff is not my own and credits will be given where I repose someone else's material from the Den (while I did make a few slight modifications to them).

Anyway, I'll be glad to know what you guys think.



Charge

Edge Option: You don't suffer the normal -2 penalty to AC against creatures that you have the edge over.


Overrun

Edge Option: You can choose if the enemy uses their strength or dexterity modifier to resist your overrun attempts.


Sunder

You may make a special sunder attempt with a melee attack. First, roll against the items AC, if the items is worn or wielded by a creature then you must first successfully hit the creature. On a successful hit instead of inflicting damage to the creature you inflict damage to the held item which may cause it to break, rendering it useless. A sunder attempt that does not destroy the targeted item provokes an attack of opportunity.
You can also sunder natural weapons by following all the steps above except that instead of dealing damage to an item you deal half your damage to the creature and the creature needs to make Fort Save equal to 10+half your level+your strength modifier or lose its natural attack until the damage you inflicted is healed.

Edge Option: If you have the Edge over an enemy you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from unsuccessful Sunder attempts.

Special - Rebuilding an Item: You can rebuild a sundered item by working for one hour per hit point that the item had. Make a Craft check against the DC needed to craft that item in the first place. Failure means that you were unable to put the item back together but you may try again later.


Shield Bash (credit goes to Mister Sinister)

You can perform a shield bash in place of any number of normal weapon attacks (you take the normal -4 penalty to attack rolls if you are not proficient with your shield). Make an attack roll, using the shield's enhancement bonus to AC as an enhancement bonus on the attack roll. The attack roll is computed as a normal melee weapon attack. If it hits, the shield deals 1d8 bludgeoning damage (bludgeoning and piercing if it is a spiked shield and 1d10 damage if it's a great shield), plus the user's Strength modifier (if you are performing shield bashes as part of Two-Weapon Fighting attack then you receive only half your strength bonus to damage) and any enhancement bonus it has. Any other bonuses a character receives for melee attacks that could apply to this attack do. However, you do not receive your shield's bonus to AC for that round.

Edge Option: If you have the Edge on an opponent, you do not lose your shield's bonus to AC after performing a shield bash.
Shieldbearer [Combat]
"And my shield."
+0: You may add your Strength modifier to your BAB for the purposes of working out whether you have the Edge for shield bashes, as well as the Edge for defending against bull rushes, trips and disarms while you have a shield equipped.
+1: You add your shield's AC bonus to your touch AC as well.
+6: Any opponent struck by a shield bash must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 your character level+your Str mod). If they fail, they receive a penalty on all skill checks, ability checks, attack rolls and saves equal to your Str modifier for 1d4 rounds.
+11: As an immediate action, you may lose your shield bonus until your next action, but instead grant it to an adjacent ally for as long as you do not have it.
+16: Your shield bashes are so awesome that each time you hit with one, your opponent is automatically bull rushed, using your damage as the distance you have 'moved' (rounded up to the nearest 5ft), and you move with an opponent that you bull rush in such a way. If you actually perform a bull rush while using a shield, you receive a bonus on the roll equal to your Strength modifier (essentially, gaining it twice)

Retreat

If combat seems hopeless you have the option of running away as a standard action. You instantly become frightened even if you are immune to fear. You remain frightened until you can no longer detect any enemies nearby and for 1 minute afterwards. You instantly gain two move actions and all your movement speeds are set to 60 ft unless they are already 40 ft or higher, in which case you gain a +20 ft bonus to all of them. You also make all rolls to escape from a grapple, bonds or similar effects with a +4 bonus while you remain frightened.
If you are ever unable to flee then you cannot use this option. If you ever become unable to flee when using this option then you lose the frightened condition and become shaken for 1 minute instead (or you become desperate if the below rules are also used).
Special: if you are riding a mount when you use this option then it receives these bonuses as well.

Edge Option: While you remain frightened you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from leaving threatened squares of enemies over which you have the edge. You still provoke attacks of opportunity for other actions normally.
Desperate Ground (credit goes to Chamomile)
"Ground on which we can only be saved from destruction by fighting without delay is desperate ground." -Sun Tzu

This is a simple rules patch for the fear rules that I'm writing up mostly because the thread on retreating made me think of it and Sun Tzu's desperate ground is a tactical concept that I enjoy adding into games. I'm not entirely sure why. I've also added a new feat called Bushido that uses the desperate ground rules.

Surrender

First off, under the desperate ground rules, frightened or panicked creatures will attempt to surrender if they are completely unable to flee, but only if surrendering will not result in death or a fate worse than death. You can make an offer to surrender to a creature you plan to torture (or whatever) on a successful Bluff check against their modified level check (1d20+character level/hit dice+WIS) or Sense Motive check. Exactly what constitutes a fate worse than death varies from one creature to another, but generally anything but torture will not qualify.

Desperation

If a frightened or panicked creature is unable to flee from or surrender to the source of their fear by any means, they become desperate. A desperate creature attempts to fight past whatever it is that prevents them from fleeing. Once the option to flee directly away from the source of their fear is available, they become frightened. A desperate creature gains a +2 bonus to all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Creatures immune to fear cannot become desperate, even if they have become frightened through some other means.

Bushido [Combat]
The only way forward is through.
+0: You gain an extra +1 bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls when desperate.
+1: You are desperate in every combat, even if immune to other fear effects. You remain desperate until the combat has finished.
+6: If you are reduced to zero or fewer hit points when desperate, you may continue fighting at no penalty for three rounds, however you automatically lose two hit points each round. You immediately fall unconscious and begin bleeding out once the duration ends or you are no longer desperate, and you may fall unconscious of your own volition at any time.
+11: If you are desperate and your opponent is not, you have the Edge on them.
+16: You may ignore the first death effect used against you when desperate. You may not ignore another death effect unless you cease being desperate and then become desperate again.

Duel of Wills
(lolsocialcombat)

Once per day, as a free action, you can engage another non-mindless creature in a Duel of Wills before the start of combat. This usually involves anything from epic speeches to staredowns. Both you and your foe roll opposed Will saves. If you roll higher by more than five then you receive a +2 bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls and saves against the loser. The loser of the duel receives the same bonuses as penalties instead when in combat against the winner. These modifications persist until combat is over. If nobody rolls by more than five then both combatants tie and no effect is gained. A target can engage in a duel of wills only once per combat.
Special: You cannot use Duel of Wills if you or your target started combat from a surprise round.

Edge Options: If you have the edge on an enemy then as long as you roll higher than what he rolled then you count as having won the duel of wills.

Conqueror's Will [Combat]
You can staredown a statue.
0: You can perform a duel of wills every 10 minutes instead of once a day.
1: When you win a duel of wills you instantly inflict non-lethal damage on the loser equal to twice your Will Save bonus.
6: When you win a duel of wills the loser is paralyzed for the first round of combat against you. This ignores any immunity to paralysis that the target might have.
11: You can now use duel of wills even against mindless targets. You may now opt to inflict lethal damage instead of non-lethal damage when you win a duel of wills.
16: Mass staredown - you are no longer limited to one target during a duel of wills and can now target as many creatures as you can see.
Last edited by Dominicius on Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus »

I really really REALLY like Duel of Wills and the feat for it, thematically.

Edit: Shouldn't Conqueror's Will +11 be "you may opt to inflict lethal damage instead of non-lethal'?
Last edited by Maxus on Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Other than for the sake of the game, why can you only use Duel of Wills once per day? I mean, "stare at someone really" hard sounds like something awesome heroes do a lot.
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Post by CatharzGodfoot »

Shouldn't a "duel of wills" just be a demoralize attempt?
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Post by Koumei »

The DoW feat is hilarious at level 1. Not in a way that needs changing, either.

Let's say a Human Monk took it. He has the Elite array, so has a Will Save of +4. His other feat isn't Iron Will, because it's Combat School or Blitz or something. And as funny as it is to picture him going "Hiya! Hwa! Wapow!" and doing 'action hero' poses with every step, we'll assume he doesn't actually activate styles out of combat, so doesn't have the +4 to Saves style up.

Against a lot of crap people fight at level 1?

CARE BEAR STARE! 8 non-lethal, BAM! ~KO!~

Granted, at level 1 the average fight is like 4 goblins or 2 orcs, so it's not even a big deal that one falls over before the fight starts. And yes, if he has a point-buy he takes 16 Wis and that becomes 10 damage at level one, woo~. If he actually DID take Iron Will just for this, then yeah, it's like 16 and even "an orc barbarian who is raging when you meet him (11 HP)" falls over for naptime. All because the monk threatened to say bad things to or about him. On the Internet.
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Post by Dominicius »

@Koumei Speaking of Iron Will, in my game I give Iron Will and similar feats the extra utility that you can opt to give up the +3 bonus to one save and instead use your cha bonus to will saves instead of wis (or str instead of con and int instead of dex).

So that also works well with the DoW mechanic.


@CG As for the demoralize thing, the intimidate skill just doesn't work in this context. In a skill vrs save the skill will win every time so I instead opted to make it an opposed will check. Now if you mean that DoW should just inflict the shakened status, that really just interacts too much with other mechanics based on fear which is not what I want. I want a bonus that more narrowly focused than what the fear conditions do.


@YLM See if I let Duel of Wills be common place then it will happen in every combat, instead of being something that you save up for bosses and other dramatic instances.
So before you get the feat you are not really considered to have special willpower but enough to be able to give a dramatic speech to your father and get a few bonuses if you win to make it feel worthwhile. But once you do take the feat it shifts from being tool for building dramatic tension and becomes a superpower that you can use to KO dragons and other crazy crap.
For everything else there is intimidate.
Last edited by Dominicius on Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:08 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

I understand that people would do it in every fight, but the problem with your fix for that is that there's an awkward "NO ONLY ONCE PER DAY" ban that hurst the versimilitude.

DoW should provide some sort of penalty to the character using it to disincentivize DoW use in every combat, but make it important for relatively-equivalent fights, since that's when a Dueling of Wills would occur.

Also, the feat's subdual damage is probably a bit too strong, as Koumei said. Having the option to not get a bonus from Iron Will doesn't fix that problem.
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius »

Double will save damage is only strong at the start of the game, It becomes manageable rather quickly as you go up in levels. And again, you don't really care about one target suddenly doping when you are facing hordes of them.

As for the verisimilitude part, don't you think that imposing penalties would hurt verisimilitude even more? Like you keep staring people down but for some reason getting worse at it the more you do it. While the once per day may not be a perfect mechanic it is better than forcing penalties on the players and is just more bookkeeping I do not wish to keep track of.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Dominicius wrote:Double will save damage is only strong at the start of the game, It becomes manageable rather quickly as you go up in levels. And again, you don't really care about one target suddenly doping when you are facing hordes of them.
Saying "the game only breaks in one spot!" is not justification unless you're talking about level 20.
As for the verisimilitude part, don't you think that imposing penalties would hurt verisimilitude even more? Like you keep staring people down but for some reason getting worse at it the more you do it. While the once per day may not be a perfect mechanic it is better than forcing penalties on the players and is just more bookkeeping I do not wish to keep track of.
I would say that "you get tired" is a better substitute than "god cockblocks your attempts for the rest of the day", yes. And you can say, quite easily, that a Duel of Wills is mentally straining and takes work each day.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
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Post by Dominicius »

Sigh.

Look, we both know that D&D is broken at level 1. It is broken in a way that is completely irrelevant to whether or not DoW was included. Neverwinter Nights 2 had you spending the first two levels in the village while you did random non-lethal quests till you got to level 3. This pretty much shows you that even Bioware acknowledges that starting you at level one in D&D is a terrible idea.

So instead of asking me to fix DoW, try looking for ways to fix D&D at level 1.


And for me personally, I hate the idea of becoming shittier at using DoW instead of it just being on a 1 day limit. With the later I can let it slide due to narrative reason but with the first I actually need to come up with some bullshit reason why staring hard at too many people will make you progressively worse at doing it.

This is just my personal view on the matter.
Last edited by Dominicius on Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BearsAreBrown »

Duel of Wills is stupid because there is no reason not to do it. Give it an action time, make it a part of an attack, something. The shitty feat can make it a free action so that only characters who want to DoW will be using DoW.
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Dominicius wrote:Sigh.

Look, we both know that D&D is broken at level 1. It is broken in a way that is completely irrelevant to whether or not DoW was included. Neverwinter Nights 2 had you spending the first two levels in the village while you did random non-lethal quests till you got to level 3. This pretty much shows you that even Bioware acknowledges that starting you at level one in D&D is a terrible idea.

So instead of asking me to fix DoW, try looking for ways to fix D&D at level 1.
OK, it's broken at level 3 too, when the difference between players is still really high for the guy with the high will save. It starts being not retarded at level 5. Now will you fix it?

EDIT: I just want to add the idea that DoW is not spending any actions to win a combat at level 1, which is significantly more broken than spending an action to win in combat at level 1. So breaking the system further is also not a good justification.
And for me personally, I hate the idea of becoming shittier at using DoW instead of it just being on a 1 day limit. With the later I can let it slide due to narrative reason but with the first I actually need to come up with some bullshit reason why staring hard at too many people will make you progressively worse at doing it.

This is just my personal view on the matter.
Um, no. You can let it slide due a narrative reason like "you're straining yourself". And guess what, when you're tired, you get worse at things (which is opposed to your view of magically forgetting how to do them). There's no good narrative reason for only being able to use DoW 1/day other than "fucking miracles".
Last edited by ...You Lost Me on Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Again, look at this fucking map you moron. Take your finger and trace each country's coast, then trace its claim line. Even you - and I say that as someone who could not think less of your intelligence - should be able to tell that one of these things is not like the other.
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Post by ckafrica »

For DoW having a bonus and a penalty is annoying because requires 2 things to track of instead of one. I'd go with bonus and maybe add it to DCs to replicate the penalty to saves the loser would have had. Double the bonus if you feel a +2 isnt enough.

My other concern is it being will saves it means a cleric or wizard will be better at intimidating than a barbarian.

Also what stat is the feat based off?
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Dominicius
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Post by Dominicius »

Anyway, after a long time of thinking things over I've come to a few conclusions about DoW and the related feat. As that seems to be the thing that has gotten the most controversy.

1. I am not going to add an action for it. The bonuses from it are not major enough to warrant it.
2. I am not going to balance the second benefit of the feat for low levels. I don't worry about the fact that players will breeze through my encounters or might one shot a boss, If it makes them feel awesome, then I have no problems having it in the game.*
But if it is a problem for you I've added a simple fix to the end of this post that you can use in your games.
3. Instead of having a bonus and penalty, let's just have a penalty. -3 to AC, Saves, AB and damage.
4. Heroes should be able to use DoW more often but not in every fight, so here is how I think to do it: if an enemy is 2 or more levels below the hero then you can use DoW for free but anything above that would still be limited to once a day. Makes sense?

---

*To calculate hit points for level one take max hit die and add the characters constitution score (instead of bonus). Calculate HP for other levels using the standard half HD+Con mod.
For monsters, a quick and easy way to handle this is to simple add their constitution score to their hp and not think about the rest. If they don't have a con score add their strength score instead. This should fix all your issues both with the ability and the early game itself.
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