Pathfinder: the Lowdown

[FatR]

Polymorph is minute/level, IIRC. You don't need to sneak. You need to generally expect combat.

[ubernoob]

Polymorph is minute/level, IIRC. You don't need to sneak. You need to generally expect combat.

Seven minutes really isn't very long. Good for dungeon crawls. Not good for much else.

[RandomCasualty2]

In my experience, GM must really go out of his way to ambush a party, if he wishes to deny them time to buff before combat. This doesn't seem to be happen often in actual games.

Yeah, pretty much you cast the spell at the entrance to the dungeon and rush in SWAT style. Given that you can move reasonably quick and if you keep the entire dungeon exploration measured in rounds, never stopping to search bodies or anything, you'll basically be able to clear at least 3 occupied rooms, if not more.

You may set off some traps, but traps are weak sauce in 3.5 anyway, and give you a bunch of XP just for walking into them like an idiot. In fact, probably the best way to power level is to fabricate yourself up some traps and walk into them repeatedly.

[Roy]

First of all, Polymorph doesn't give most of the special abilities. It gives a few like Pounce and Rake (Ex) but not any of the nice ones.

Second, most of the forms you named are 12th level or higher. By this point you have the 5th level spell Draconic Polymorph, which is just flat out better in every way (and also has been admitted to be better). More to the point, you're past the point where HP damage really matters... which means you're devoting resources to slitting the throats of cripples. Don't do that.

It grants all natural abilities, anything from your type/subtype and untyped. Every ability I mentioned is one of those. Stupid but true. If you are skeptical, give me an example and I'll find you a form where the ability is natural or (Ex). This isn't something I've made up, discovered first, or haven't discussed at length before. Honest.

The forms I named were 12th level (all). Draconic Polymorph is superior in certain cases, but it is 5th level and a personal spell, so it depends what you want from it. You cannot change the charge fighter into a 12 headed hydra (or anything for that matter) with Draconic Polymorph. Draconic Polymorph is broken too - but for different reasons. See "Cheater of Mystra".

Buffing remains a worthwile enterprise for Wizards at 12th level. Increasing HP damage potential is one of those worthwhile pursuits. You 1) control the battlefield, 2) Debuff, 3) buff (often in that order) - this is a proven method of wizard strategy in combat. Turning the fighter into a 12 headed hydra may not be a good move on round 1, but by round 3 it can be the finisher. You set the opponents up to die, then you kill them. The fighter is a useful, and even necessary tool to achieve this.

I'm new to these boards, but I assure you, I'm not new to wizard strategy.

And this is where you're flat out wrong. Aiming for only a possible finisher on the third round means you're too fucking slow. You throw out possible finishers on round 1, and further those 'possible' finishers have a much higher success rate. If you're wasting the first two rounds, then every enemy is getting two free rounds on you. And that's fucking huge. You might as well be casting save or dies on yourself in that time.

It's 12th level. The Fighter is not a part of any valid strategy. Get over it.

Also for some reason RC is being a dumbfuck and trying to play off as if AC actually matters, and is on the RNG, as opposed to +10 meaning 'might not be auto hittable'.

[Treantmonklvl20]

Here, I'll go into detail:
EL 7 encounters:
8 headed hydra - just cast ray of dizziness and then kite it. No need to blow a 4th level spell.
Huge Air elemental- Glitterdust. Done.
Horde of chokers: EBT, got them all
Ogre Mage: Glitterdust, done
Succubus: Magic Circle pretty much means that you can just afford to use diplomacy or let the enlarged fighter grappler her until she agrees to be your bitch..

Every single one of these has possible situations where your spell of choice doesn't work. Modules are funny that way - it's not always in a wide open field with no surprise round.

Not every spell a wizard casts is offensive. Polymorph is also a defensive spell, depending upon your need at the moment. It's Mind Blank, Fire Shield, Fly, Water breathing, expeditious retreat, Remove Paralysis, Remove blindness, etc, whatever you need at the time - in one spell slot.

All that matters is that polymorph isn't something you are willing to spend a standard action on because you almost always have a better action.

Who needs a standard action? If I want to cast it swift I'll use my belt of battle.

You know what else gets around SR and high saves? Solid fog. Pretty cool, eh?

You've read my guides, so you know I'm a fan of the fogs (all of them), but Solid Fog is situational.

Umm, yeah. Buffing in combat is retarded. You buff outside of combat. There's a reason that 10 min/level spells like heroism and hr/level spells like greater magic weapon exist.

Of course you buff outside of combat. However, depending on the situation, sometimes buffing in combat is your best choice. Saves you money for ressurection of party members. I can give you an example if you like.

TL;DR: TML20, show me ONE instance where a wizard would be better off casting polymorph in combat instead of casting another better spell. I'm willing to bet you can.

OK, no example then.

I'm also willing to bet that against the vast majority of enemies this isn't the case. And fundamentally, if polymorph isn't your go to option, but rather gets usage on the same level as dismissal, then polymorph totally is a niche spell to prepare for quirky situations and not something totally powerful.

Click and read "Polymorph": http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... #338358362

This isn't new modes of thought I'm speaking about. Tried, tested, tested, tested, tested, tested and true.

[Treantmonklvl20]

And this is where you're flat out wrong. Aiming for only a possible finisher on the third round means you're too fucking slow. You throw out possible finishers on round 1, and further those 'possible' finishers have a much higher success rate. If you're wasting the first two rounds, then every enemy is getting two free rounds on you. And that's fucking huge. You might as well be casting save or dies on yourself in that time.

It's 12th level. The Fighter is not a part of any valid strategy. Get over it.

Despite Ubernoob's experience and your own, I've found the vast majority of players I've spoken to find that the best spells fairly frequently don't end combat on round 1 until very high levels.

If your personal experience is different, then we are simply going to have to agree to disagree Roy.

[Murtak]

Despite Ubernoob's experience and your own, I've found the vast majority of players I've spoken to find that the best spells fairly frequently don't end combat on round 1 until very high levels.

Define "end". I have seen Web end dozens of encounters. Yet I have seen Web kill a total of one creature ever. Similarly Wall of Stone doesn't kill people. It just keeps a substantial proportion of the MM from doing anything useful.

[Heath Robinson]

Despite Ubernoob's experience and your own, I've found the vast majority of players I've spoken to find that the best spells fairly frequently don't end combat on round 1 until very high levels.

That's because both of you are talking past each other. When Roy talks about ending combat, he means that the combat is in the effective endgame stage. That is; it's like a chess endgame where it's down to the winner to play out the details, or the loser to resign.

Your friends (I presume they are your friends - or at least acquiantances that I can define as your friends for the purposes of using a shorter title should I discuss this point further) most likely define ending combat as having no more enemies left on the field.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik, giving the fighter a +5 inherent bonus to Strength at level 12 is ridiculous. That's the sort of thing that 99% of DMs are going to ban immediately. If you wanted a more realistic build, you could give him a +4 Strength belt or something.

Look, polymorph is ridiculously good in 3.5. We're not talking about playing Tome games because, quite frankly, Tome games are not what the majority of people play because they have DMs and players who aren't going to try candle of invocation/planar binding cheese. Take that war troll, for example. It's one of the best polymorph forms out there.

+5 Inherent is what you get past level 9. Everyone gets a +5 Inherent to every stat.

Take the War Troll for example. It gives you a Str equal to a Fighter of your level, and you still have Wizard BAB, and no feats.

Just by using mage armor and polymorph, you become stronger than the fighter, and you have comparable AC. You also get all the nifty special abilities of the war troll, and I'm assuming that includes regeneration and rend qualify.

First of all, you don't get all the nifty abilities, you get all the extraordinary special attacks. A list which doesn't include regeneration, even if the war Troll has it.

But no, you don't become stronger than the fighter. You have less Str than the fighter, because you don't own an enhancement item, and his Base score is equal to the War Troll.

Will the fighter have a higher attack bonus? Yes. The wizard's going to have around a +16 attack bonus (assuming no enhancement bonuses to his claws), while the fighter will have around a +20 attack bonus. However, the fact that the wizard can get close to the fighter's competency with a single spell is the problem.

Let's not make up lies and let's look at actual numbers.

At level 12, Fighter has GMWed +3 weapon, +6 Str item, and base Str of 30. Also +12 BAB.

So the Fighters AB is +28 before his boots of speed and circumstantial bonuses. He also does way more damage than you. Life, hundred of damage per round.

You on the Other hand have +6 BAB, or less because you PrCed. Str 31, but not enhancement item, and you are using claws which you didn't GMW, and basically can't in any meaningful way.

Your AB is +16. If you are hitting half the time for 50-60 damage per round, he is hitting all the time for 400 damage per round.

If he is hitting half the time for 200 damage per round, you are hitting only on a 20, for basically no damage at all.

No, not impressed with your War Troll. And I bet you couldn't even tell me what book War Troll is in without googling it.

You know why? Because you've never polymorphed into a Wartroll, because it's a waste of time.

I can tell you what book Chronotyryn is in off the top of my head, because it doesn't suck to turn into a Chronotyryn. With Shapechange. A spell that doesn't suck.

[Treantmonklvl20]

Define "end". I have seen Web end dozens of encounters. Yet I have seen Web kill a total of one creature ever. Similarly Wall of Stone doesn't kill people. It just keeps a substantial proportion of the MM from doing anything useful.

Good call.

I would define "end" as the point in which the wizard does not need to do anything, and the rest of the party can clean up without any signficant risk.

For example, I would not define a well controlled battlefield (say, separating the enemy with a Solid Fog, to use Ubernoob's example) as the "end" of the combat - you've turned the tide in your favour by this point, but there is still signficant risk to party members if you do not continue to do your job by buffing/debuffing - or even a blast (though I'm not a big fan of wizards blasting in general)

A battle where you've blinded all the enemy rogues with glitterdust, and the rest of the party have several rounds to finish them off is at an "end".

That's because both of you are talking past each other. When Roy talks about ending combat, he means that the combat is in the effective endgame stage. That is; it's like a chess endgame where it's down to the winner to play out the details, or the loser to resign.

I would consider that to be the "end". When you tip over your king, checkmate is inevitable.

However, lets say you sack your queen on turn 3 (stupid), then the game is not at an end yet, because although you have very likely lost, checkmate is not yet a certainty. I'm getting the impression that this is the point in which Ubernoob is considering the combat "over".

Your friends (I presume they are your friends - or at least acquiantances that I can define as your friends for the purposes of using a shorter title should I discuss this point further) most likely define ending combat as having no more enemies left on the field.

I did a guide (several actually) on the Wizard's CO boards regarding Wizard's being "a god" a couple years back. Since then I've been involved in many discussions there on threads or by PM. Also, a few optimizers did CO diaries of their experiences using a "god" wizard.

plug-plug (excuse shameless self-promotion) - here's a link: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... eing_a_God

This thread made my night. And I was havin a bad day, too. Something about seeing somebody get pwned by Dogbert just put a smile on my face.

Thanks, I'll go easy on you after world domination

The game as a core pathfinder wizard...

Sorry I forgot to thank you last post

This is helpful...thanks. I'll take a closer look at it, I may not give a breakdown response until next week though (I'm moving this weekend, and won't have time for in-depth analysis of anything). But I will...promise. Thanks again!

Back on topic, for what it's worth - I do notice that the majority of spells being referenced by other posters as the "end of combat" spells in the Polymorph debate are spells that got nerfed in Pathfinder...[/url]

[RandomCasualty2]

Also for some reason RC is being a dumbfuck and trying to play off as if AC actually matters, and is on the RNG, as opposed to +10 meaning 'might not be auto hittable'.

Against some monsters it does. A good amount of monsters in the MM still pretty much attack against AC as their major schtick.

I mean, sure, if you're going to buff yourself, you're better off using greater invisibility, but as a buff to the fighter, you might as well boost his strength, reach and his AC while you're at it.

Polymorph isn't a great spell to cast on yourself, but it's nice for your allies. Especially if you go in SWAT style and can grind about 3 encounters out of one spell. Even greater invisibility is only going to work for one battle, and probably needs to be cast during combat, where as poly can be prebuffed.

Now, it really is generally a waste for a wizard to polymorph himself and start doing melee attacks. But as a buff you throw on a fighter type prior to entering a dungeon, seriously, what's not to like?

[Psychic Robot]

Kaelik, you seem to have completely ignored the part of my post where I said "we're not talking about a Tome game." That's a rather important aspect to assume. Tome games are devoted to an extremely minute--perhaps even microscopic--subsection of gamers who have DMs who allow things like chain binding to produce infinite wealth. It's just like the flask rogue: it might work, but I have never, ever seen one in play. And I doubt that I ever will.

In my analysis, I’m going to assume a base Strength of 16. Then you get a +3 from leveling up, so you’re up to 19. Then you have a +4 Belt of Strength for a total of +23. Thus, your Strength modifier is +6. Then you have a +2 magic weapon (because most clerics aren’t going to use karma beads with greater magic weapon) and a base attack bonus of +12. So, yeah, your attack bonus is +20.

Regeneration is an extraordinary ability, so it is covered by polymorph. Rend also happens to be an (ex) ability. And you’re right that I don’t know what the war troll’s stats are off the top of my head, as I have indeed never turned into one. Why? Because I find it cheesy, and I don’t want to outshine the fighter at beating things to death.

[Kaelik]

Kaelik, you seem to have completely ignored the part of my post where I said "we're not talking about a Tome game." That's a rather important aspect to assume. Tome games are devoted to an extremely minute--perhaps even microscopic--subsection of gamers who have DMs who allow things like chain binding to produce infinite wealth. It's just like the flask rogue: it might work, but I have never, ever seen one in play. And I doubt that I ever will.

And I'm not talking about Chainbinding for infinite wealth either, since it makes all of this redundant. I'm talking about Chainbinding for an explicit and specific use of Wish that doesn't break the game at all.

And just like Flask Rogues, it something that comes up in many games, and is not a huge fucking deal, and comes up more often than WarTrolls.

In my analysis, I’m going to assume a base Strength of 16. Then you get a +3 from leveling up, so you’re up to 19. Then you have a +4 Belt of Strength for a total of +23. Thus, your Strength modifier is +6. Then you have a +2 magic weapon (because most clerics aren’t going to use karma beads with greater magic weapon) and a base attack bonus of +12. So, yeah, your attack bonus is +20.

I'm going to assume the Wizard Polymorphs himself into a squirrel, because complete and total incompetence is not something that I feel the need to account for. If your level 12 Fighter has a base Str 23, you are retarded and you need to die.

Try reading the fucking spell: "This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). "

12/4=3.

Regeneration is an extraordinary ability, so it is covered by polymorph. Rend also happens to be an (ex) ability. And you’re right that I don’t know what the war troll’s stats are off the top of my head, as I have indeed never turned into one. Why? Because I find it cheesy, and I don’t want to outshine the fighter at beating things to death.

Remember how I told you to read the actual spells and stop talking out of your ass like a retard? Yeah. That:

"but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form"

[RandomCasualty2]

And I'm not talking about Chainbinding for infinite wealth either, since it makes all of this redundant. I'm talking about Chainbinding for an explicit and specific use of Wish that doesn't break the game at all.

Most DMs are not going to allow wish chainbinding at all.

[Psychic Robot]

And I'm not talking about Chainbinding for infinite wealth either, since it makes all of this redundant. I'm talking about Chainbinding for an explicit and specific use of Wish that doesn't break the game at all.

It's an explicit and specific use of wish that doesn't come up in most games.

I'm going to assume the Wizard Polymorphs himself into a squirrel, because complete and total incompetence is not something that I feel the need to account for. If your level 12 Fighter has a base Str 23, you are retarded and you need to die.

I already explained how the fighter got a 23 Strength. Even if you push your Strength to 18 starting Strength--which has an extremely steep opportunity cost--you're going to end up with a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. That's just not very impressive.

Try reading the fucking spell: "This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). "

12/4=3.

My apologies. I thought it was +1 per five caster levels.

Remember how I told you to read the actual spells and stop talking out of your ass like a retard? Yeah. That:

"but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form"

I must have mis-read the spell. And it turns out that war trolls do not have rend, but rather dazing blow, which forces the target to make a DC 25 Fortitude save whenever the war troll hits with an attack. It's still pretty much as awesome as the party fighter.

[MGuy]

And I'm not talking about Chainbinding for infinite wealth either, since it makes all of this redundant. I'm talking about Chainbinding for an explicit and specific use of Wish that doesn't break the game at all.

And just like Flask Rogues, it something that comes up in many games, and is not a huge fucking deal, and comes up more often than WarTrolls.

I don't know where or who you play your games with. But I've never seen a DM allow these kind of Binding/Wish antics for anything. If they didn't flat out ban the spell they certainly weren't gonna let a group pull that shit.

[ubernoob]

Here, I'll go into detail:
EL 7 encounters:
8 headed hydra - just cast ray of dizziness and then kite it. No need to blow a 4th level spell.
Huge Air elemental- Glitterdust. Done.
Horde of chokers: EBT, got them all
Ogre Mage: Glitterdust, done
Succubus: Magic Circle pretty much means that you can just afford to use diplomacy or let the enlarged fighter grappler her until she agrees to be your bitch..

Every single one of these has possible situations where your spell of choice doesn't work. Modules are funny that way - it's not always in a wide open field with no surprise round.

Actually, aside from simplyi failing to hit them ro them making their save, all of these absolutely do work.
Here's the math:
Ray of dizziness vs the hydra - Touch AC of 9 and your attack bonus is about +5 or 7. You win pretty much every time with a lower than top level spell.
Glitterdust vs Huge Air elemental: DC 18 vs will save of +5. Win the majority of the time and if it makes it once just cast it again because you aren't using top level slots.
Glitterdust vs Ogre Mage- knocks out the invisibility (ogre mage's main thing) and has a very good chance to blind. Cast twice if needed.
Succubus- They don't have dispel magic on their list of SLAs. There's not actually a way for the succubus to threaten you.


So yeah, you totally WILL win with these every time unless you have INCREDIBLY bad luck (IE roll a 1 twice in a row against the hydra or the air elemental rolls >13 both times). If you're that worried about luck, you shouldn't be adding the fighter's dice into the mix, but should rather be casting solid fog and other no attack roll, no save effects all the time.

But yeah, implying that these won't work damn near every time is just ridiculous and makes it hard for me to take you seriously.

Not every spell a wizard casts is offensive. Polymorph is also a defensive spell, depending upon your need at the moment.

Polymorph can grant...

Immunity to an element: Neat. Also done for a longer duration by Protection from Energy at a lower level.

It's Mind Blank,

Please tell me a situation where you would ever want to polymorph yourself into a plant instead of using the much longer lasting Magic Circle at a lower level.

Fire Shield, Fly, Water breathing, expeditious retreat, Remove Paralysis, Remove blindness, etc, whatever you need at the time - in one spell slot.

You know what grants a better fly speed? Phantom Steed. Water breathing? Nobody actually cares about water breathing. I'd like to hear how you're casting polymorph if you're paralyzed. I'd also like to hear why Polymorph is needed for remove blindness when you have dispel magic on your spell list.

All that matters is that polymorph isn't something you are willing to spend a standard action on because you almost always have a better action.

Who needs a standard action? If I want to cast it swift I'll use my belt of battle.

Yeah, belt of battle is just shifting the goal posts. Good job, you found something that can grant an extra action. That's not exclusive to polymorph.

You know what else gets around SR and high saves? Solid fog. Pretty cool, eh?

You've read my guides, so you know I'm a fan of the fogs (all of them), but Solid Fog is situational.

No, it's something that's useful in a LOT of battles. Polymorph is situational. Solid fog is something you prepare 2 or 3 times because it can win a battle without a save.

Umm, yeah. Buffing in combat is retarded. You buff outside of combat. There's a reason that 10 min/level spells like heroism and hr/level spells like greater magic weapon exist.

Of course you buff outside of combat. However, depending on the situation, sometimes buffing in combat is your best choice. Saves you money for ressurection of party members. I can give you an example if you like.

Wrong. Incapacitating the enemy so that they cannot kill your party members saves costs on resurrection. Giving one party member a defense just means the enemy picks somebody else with their "Fuck you" effect.

TL;DR: TML20, show me ONE instance where a wizard would be better off casting polymorph in combat instead of casting another better spell. I'm willing to bet you can.

OK, no example then.

I'm also willing to bet that against the vast majority of enemies this isn't the case. And fundamentally, if polymorph isn't your go to option, but rather gets usage on the same level as dismissal, then polymorph totally is a niche spell to prepare for quirky situations and not something totally powerful.

Click and read "Polymorph": http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... #338358362

This isn't new modes of thought I'm speaking about. Tried, tested, tested, tested, tested, tested and true.

Y'aaawn.




Yes, I know you have had DMs in the past that have fudged dice so that your save or sucks don't work or added abilities on the fly so your BC doesn't work. I don't fucking care. The game as printed is set up so that BC and SoS can indeed protect the party better than some niche spell.

Polymorph is flexible (in that it can replicate a lot of lower level effects), but it ins't actually POWERFUL except to break the AC/Attack bonus RNG. It totally *does* break that RNG. You don't cast it in combat though. In combat you have more effective shit on your spell list.

[Psychic Robot]

I think the idea is to allow the fighter to break the AC/attack bonus RNG.

[Taleran]

I have a question, is tumble easier to pull off than the other combat related tricks?

[ubernoob]

I have a question, is tumble easier to pull off than the other combat related tricks?

PF tumble has to beat the foe's CMD iirc. It's basically unworkable.

[Taleran]

I have a question, is tumble easier to pull off than the other combat related tricks?

PF tumble has to beat the foe's CMD iirc. It's basically unworkable.

Jesus......why? And looking at the book that just finished downloading I see that thts only for 1 opponent and threatening squares, going through the opponent raises the DC even more.

[Treantmonklvl20]

Actually, aside from simplyi failing to hit them ro them making their save, all of these absolutely do work..

I don't think you really understood what I meant by "different possible situations." I'm not sure how you took that to mean, "they will save", but, we agree that they are good spells against these enemies, providing the situation and location don't bring in considerations that may change that.

I think a lot of posters will get what I mean by that. Maybe I'm wrong...shrug.

But yeah, implying that these won't work damn near every time is just ridiculous and makes it hard for me to take you seriously.

Depends what you mean by "won't work nearly every time". I certainly didn't mean they likely would save. Again...shrug. I don't think you understood my point, I'm not sure how to make it clearer...example?

Immunity to an element: Neat. Also done for a longer duration by Protection from Energy at a lower level.

Read my earlier post - you know, that one that listed half a page of immunities/defenses/movements etc you can get with Polymorph. Your quote here is like saying, "EBT can grapple goblins...so what? How often do you face goblins at this level?" Ignoring the many other things it can take care of.

Please tell me a situation where you would ever want to polymorph yourself into a plant instead of using the much longer lasting Magic Circle at a lower level.

There are many examples, lets give you the parameters. If you would like specific examples that fall within these parameters, I can provide them.

1) whenever the spell you are being targeted with is "mind-affecting" but does not excercise mental control or compulsion (one example: feeblemind)

2) Whenever you are concerned about a possible dispel. Magic Circle suppresses the affect rather than providing immunity. If the circle is dispelled, the mind-controlling/compulsion affect takes hold.

Basically, any time you would prefer Mind Blank over Protection from X. Simply, in every case, mind-affecting immunity is equal or superior to Protection from X for protection from mind-affects.

You know what grants a better fly speed? Phantom Steed.

Not flying up, or turning a corner, or hovering, etc. Phantom steed has average maneouverability.

Average is not as good as perfect.

I know that's bad news for you, because how can you hope to beat me in a debate then? 8) (I know, I know, your ribs can't take anymore.)

Also, Phantom steeds have terrible HP and AC. I always make sure I have feather fall or flight if I'm on a phantom steed.

I use phantom steed on a standard basis, it's one of those spells that is "every day" for any wizard I have, even before flight - but I'm aware of its limitations.

Water breathing? Nobody actually cares about water breathing. I'd like to hear how you're casting polymorph if you're paralyzed.

The point is to use it before you get paralyzed. Kind of like using Heart of Fire before you get burnt to a pile of ash, or using displacement before you get cut into fine deli slices.

Of course, to answer your question anyways, naturally the answer is "when the one paralyzed is not you." In that case its more like a straight Remove Paralysis spell.

I'd also like to hear why Polymorph is needed for remove blindness when you have dispel magic on your spell list.

I'm always happier with something that always works than something that may work...I guess we're just different that way.

Not that Dispel isn't a good response to blindness...though I prefer dispel as a debuff personally, rather than a reactive spell.

Really, the best response to blindness is blindsight or remove blindness. However, if you don't have them available, Polymorph is a fallback.

Yeah, belt of battle is just shifting the goal posts. Good job, you found something that can grant an extra action. That's not exclusive to polymorph.

Not at all. I'm just saying we both know ways to cast spells that require a standard action without actually using a standard action. I gave one example to remind you that Polymorph can very easily be cast in the same round as a Battlefield control/Debuff.

For example - facing 2 enemies: Solid fog to separate, then Polymorph so the rest of the party finishes off enemy #1 before Enemy #2 can escape the fog. When enemy #2 gets out, they can take of them as well.

Again, this is situational, depending on the enemy, their proximity, the makeup of your party, the surroundings, etc. That's why versatile spells are so important.

No, it's something that's useful in a LOT of battles.

This is not a contradiction with my statement, so your "No, " at the beginning doesn't make sense, when you could have logically began the sentence, "In addition, " in which case, I would agree.

Polymorph is situational. Solid fog is something you prepare 2 or 3 times because it can win a battle without a save.

It provides you with a tactical advantage that can put you in position to win, mainly divide and conquer. I disagree that Solid Fog by itself wins battles, but it certainly helps.

Wrong. Incapacitating the enemy so that they cannot kill your party members saves costs on resurrection. Giving one party member a defense just means the enemy picks somebody else with their "Fuck you" effect.

Correct Party roles will make "picking someone else" difficult in many situations.

Big: able to take hits
Stupid: Makes himself a target to protect others
Fighter: Can deliver a hit.

Also, it depends on your method of incapacitation. I've written on why save or die is overrated before, and it applies to single target save or suck as well. It's an all or nothing proposition. This has tactical risks.

One Big Enemy: You either do nothing or everything. The Big Stupid Fighter and Glass Cannon are either in lots of trouble or are feeling useless. This is like the chess player who is addicted to using his queen - ends up losing it, and then sucks for the rest of the game. Use your lesser pieces (That's the big stupid fighter and the glass cannon - your peons) to your advantage - let them do the dirty work - your job is to make it easy for them, not to take their place. Try to take their place your spells will run out fast.

I can't really think of how better to put it than I did there.

Y'aaawn.

Oh... well played sir, well played.

Polymorph is flexible (in that it can replicate a lot of lower level effects), but it ins't actually POWERFUL except to break the AC/Attack bonus RNG. It totally *does* break that RNG. You don't cast it in combat though. In combat you have more effective shit on your spell list.

Except of course when it is replicating higher level affects (like mind blank)

Sometimes, a good blast is effective, however, fireballs suck, much better to use the rest of the party as your conduit.

[NineInchNall]

As for wishes transferring over, I have no idea what would make you even think that is even an arguable claim. It's an inherent bonus that instantaneously increases your base stat. The base stat you replace with polymorph.

No, it's not. It's a bonus that persists because the effect that created it is instantaneous in duration. If your character reads a +5 book, then he has a +5 inherent bonus to a stat. It doesn't time out, and it can't be dispelled, but the bonus is there. If you can find some text that would suggest otherwise, then by all means present it, but I think you're making this up.

[violence in the media]

Correct Party roles will make "picking someone else" difficult in many situations.

Big: able to take hits
Stupid: Makes himself a target to protect others
Fighter: Can deliver a hit.

Hold on now, if Ubernoob can't assume a wide open field for all spells to work perfectly, you don't get to assume that the fighter can effectively make himself a target in any situation where he can't essentially force the monsters to attack him.

Now, on this polymorph to a plant thing for the immunity to mind-affecting magic, are you assuming the DM lets you continue to cast spells in that form? If so, why? I'm trying to figure out what corner-case scenario justifies the opportunity cost of this particular action (and subsequent spell dismissal, if your DM doesn't allow further casting) rather than just taking the effect on the chin and moving on? Feeblemind? Touch of Idiocy? Geas? Power Word? Of these, how often are you going to have the advance warning that it's coming? It seems a little ridiculous to pop into cactuar form any time you're confronted with something that might have a mind-affecting ability. How do you leave the house?

I'm genuinely puzzled here. I don't dispute that you can do it, I'm just wondering why you'd bother.

[Roy]

Also for some reason RC is being a dumbfuck and trying to play off as if AC actually matters, and is on the RNG, as opposed to +10 meaning 'might not be auto hittable'.

Against some monsters it does. A good amount of monsters in the MM still pretty much attack against AC as their major schtick.

I mean, sure, if you're going to buff yourself, you're better off using greater invisibility, but as a buff to the fighter, you might as well boost his strength, reach and his AC while you're at it.

Polymorph isn't a great spell to cast on yourself, but it's nice for your allies. Especially if you go in SWAT style and can grind about 3 encounters out of one spell. Even greater invisibility is only going to work for one battle, and probably needs to be cast during combat, where as poly can be prebuffed.

Now, it really is generally a waste for a wizard to polymorph himself and start doing melee attacks. But as a buff you throw on a fighter type prior to entering a dungeon, seriously, what's not to like?

Way to miss the point.

+10 AC means you go from being auto hit to possibly not auto hit (but still hit a very large percentage of the time) since this is level 12, and in order to achieve those results at level 12 you would need an AC in the 40s BEFORE the Polymorph. Since you won't, because you can't fucking afford it and indeed, will probably have around 25-30 my point stands.

Anyways, we've already been over why HP damage = Fail, so why do we keep discussing this anyways? Goddamn, you'd think you were a Paizil or something to not get it by now.