Sorry about the length. I am actually trying to get into 4e, and trying to master a new system plus the need to vent made this thing snow ball.
BOOK DIVISION
The Book is just a big list of powers and options for 4 classes, Avenger, Cleric, Invoker, and Paladin followed by feats for those four classes and general feats that can be taken by any of those four classes. Considering the fact that they don’t give you enough information to actually play an avenger or invoker without the PHB II there is a good chance this book will be half useless to you, just like it is to me. I also don’t think I will ever play a paladin, so this is one of my dumber impulse buys.
The book is almost entirely mechanics. For some reason all the character classes (avenger, cleric, invoker, and paladin) have a new write up that is pretty much the same as their old one. Powers and feats have a line of fluff each to make them feel more like actual abilities that exist in a gameworld and not arbitrary abilities that do arbitrary things. Different domains have a bunch of fluff attached but the authors seemed to have realized people are just raiding them for combat abilities and so made the descriptions as general as possible. The only real fluff is the three pages of “Your Deity and You” which is barely more the section on gods in the PHB. There also is a little suggested background section, which looks exactly like something that was on the board at one time. Beyond that, there are little pieces of fluff scattered throughout the book randomly, most of which could fit on a yellow sticky note. Most of them are boring and stupid, but some of them are unintentionally hilarious. (FUN FACT: Did you know it is not mandatory for your dwarf to worship Moradin?)
Not even the intro section has any fluff in it. It is a page long with a section on using the book (alternate title, let me explain the function of a table of contents you fucknut), a plug for D&D insider and a note explaining that they authors totally understand your core character sucks now and that the DM should let you retrain or make a new character. Which leads us to the next section.
POWERCREEP
The powercreep is really extreme here. Part of this has to do with the lack of powers up to this point. If you were a wisdom cleric for example, you generally had a choice between two powers which are Wis dependant and you just choose the power that felt less like getting bone cancer. Just having an actual choice each new level is a pretty great change.
It goes beyond that though. 4e decided to limit healing a while back by making you burn surges. That kinda sucked and broke verisimilitude, but was actually a great balance idea because damage in 4e is low and otherwise players were pretty much invulnerable if they just dropped a heal every now and then.
The old “healing” at will was Sacred Flame, which gave temp hp equal to your charisma score plus half you level. Realistically, this worked out to be like 2 at first level. The new at will Astral Sigil gives 2 plus cha, but it gives actual hp with the healing keyword, so various bonuses attach. You can now heal 10 hp a round with an at will at first level, which is seriously crazy by 4e standards and I would not have believed if I did not see it myself. Christ, in core the muscle cleric had to wait until level 13 to have encounter based surgeless healing. The laser cleric had to wait until level 27 for that.
LASER CLERIC VS MUSCLE CLERIC or WOTC APOLOGIZES FOR RIGHTEOUS BRAND
The wisdom based laser cleric gets a lot more stuff here. That’s kinda good, because the old muscle cleric had righteous brand, an at will so good it put many dailies to shame. And they got a core race that had bonuses to both their primary and secondary stat. And they got actual feats that did them some good while the laser cleric got stuck with improved initiative and toughness. And they could raid cool powers like rain of blows from other classes with multiclassing. And they had many more encounter healing powers in the beginning.
While the laser cleric needed it more, the amount of extra stuff they get seems excessive. Of the five new level 1 daily powers, 3 are wisdom, one is strength. Of the five new level 13 encounter powers, 4 are wisdom based, 1 is strength based. There are more wisdom powers than strength ones in almost every category.
NEW CHANNEL DIVINITY
Previously, you could channel divinity once an encounter to add a plus 1 an attack or save or to attack undead. Divine Power gives you a new option, Healer’s Mercy, which is so awesome I think I can only describe it with the aid of back up dancers. It’s a close burst 5 power that lets everyone in the area use a healing surge. Consider the fact that previously a level one cleric can only allow his allies to use 2 surges worth of healing per encounter. This power can let your allies use four surges of healing all at once. The Level 9 daily power is this effect plus some damage, and it is actually a decent power at that level. The only reason to not take this is to see if I actually follow through on my threat to superman punch you through the goddamn Internet for doing something so stupid.
Shau's ridiculously long Divine Power Review
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Shau's ridiculously long Divine Power Review
Last edited by shau on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
POWER RATING Part 1
I was going to rate all the powers here, but there are 96 new powers, so fuck that noise. Instead I am going to highlight some of the options available for the two types of cleric. Utility powers aren’t divided because they are almost always wisdom, charisma, or no stat based. Because the 4e scale is so low, I am also going to talk about the best options that were in core to provide a frame of reference.
Note: I ended up rating almost all the powers because I am a fucking moron.
At Wills
Old Edition Laser Cleric
You had two at wills based on Wisdom, and could select 2 at wills. Sacred flame does crap damage and gives like 2 points of temp hp at level one. Lance of Flame does one more point of damage on average and gives any ally a plus 2 power bonus to hit. You usually use Lance of Flame so that at least you can support someone with a class like ranger that is actually doing something meaningful to your enemies.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
You only get one new at will, Astral Mark, but it is awesome. No damage, but you have a plus 2 to hit, it lowers an enemy’s defense by 2, and the next ally who hit them gains 2+CHA+WIS in hp. It gives the wizard about half his hp back without using a surge, and it gives a bonus to hit comparable to righteous brand (spread out amongst the whole party), and it is the most likely power to hit. It almost single handedly makes a low level laser cleric bearable and you would be a fool not to take it.
Old Edition Muscle Cleric
You have Righteous Brand, which is awesomely powerful and seriously one of the best buffing powers in the game. It won’t take you long at all to send an ally completely off the range. Alternately, you can use Priest’s Shield, but you only do that if your mother did not love you enough as a child and consequently you feel the need to hurt yourself.
New Edition Muscle Cleric.
Same as before Righteous Brand dominates. Still, Recovery Strike will be the other power you take. Recovery Strike heals hp, but less than a laser cleric because you are not getting a crap load of extra healing from healer’s lore. Even with the surgeless healing, there is a good chance that you will forget you even have a second at will.
1st level encounters
Core Laser Cleric
You have two powers you can select, Cause Fear and Divine Glow. Cause Fear does no damage but forces an enemy to flee. Then next turn they charge into you. Expect to have big arguments over this one because it says that enemies have to flee but can try to take a safe route and there is no guidance about how much of a detour they can make. Divine Glow is an area attack for crap damage but buffs your allies instead of hurting them. You usually take Divine Glow and call yourself an off controller, but that is one sucky role to have.
Divine Power Laser Cleric.
3 new options
Bane subtracts your CHA from an opponent’s attack and defense. If you have high CHA you can really throw them off the range. Unfortunately, you probably don’t have the CHA. Exacting Utterance is a pretty awesome situational power. It gives the opponent a vulnerability equal to your wisdom (so five) and also gives your allies that attack him your Wisdom in temp hp. It does not sound that good, but remember that a ranger by himself can fire off four attacks by just using an action point and spamming his at will. Note that you can keep this effect up for two turns by delaying your turn.
Core Muscle Cleric
You can have Healing Strike for small damage and healing surge or Wrathful Thunder for small damage and a debuff. Go Healing Strike because you are a healing guy.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Both are worse than your originals. Numinous Shield is small damage plus AC buff. Warpriest’s Strike does better damage and gives a debuff that is better than Numinous Shield’s buff . So you take Warpriest’s Strike if you don’t want Healing Strike.
Level 1 Daily
Core Laser Cleric and Muscle Cleric
There is a bunch of weird crap here, like the Guardian of Faith, which is like an early attempt at a summon. Pretty much everyone takes Beacon of Hope however, which is you first area heal, buffs all preceding heals in the encounter, and weakens enemies for a turn.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
Astral Condemnation would be pretty good because it passes out a damage penalty of 5 plus CHA and can be sustained. Moment of Glory, however, is an area effect that pushes an enemy and knocks them prone but more importantly gives DR 5 to all the good guys in the blast. That pretty much takes everyone out of the enemies’ damage range. Its like someone combined stoneskin and great thunderclap, then dumped it at level one in an edition in which you are supposed to care about a plus 1 to hit once an encounter. Lasts as long as it is sustained.
A smart player saves this for a big fight, which then becomes trivial. A devious player hopes that their DM did notice that sustainable powers are only supposed to last 5 minutes (I didn’t) uses this first thing on the weakest enemy they can find then keeps it up all day by spending their minor action, pretty much breaking the game until level 5 or so when enemies can finally do some decent damage through that. Either way you cast this and be the party’s MVP even if you then spend all your remaining turns going back to the tavern and hitting on the wenches. There is only one word for a power like that; fantasterrific.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Shield of the Gods is your shitty knock off of Moment of Glory. Its a smaller area and it damages instead of pushes, but the real deal breaker is the fact that is only gives plus 3 to reflex and AC to one ally. It’s an inferior defense given to only one character instead of all of them. Astral weapon gives you an extra attack for 1W as long as you sustain it. That sounds terrible, but that’s enough to bring you to striker level at will damage, even without the to hit bonus you are giving out. You might want Moment of Glory even without the right stat, because of its fantasterrificness.
Level 2 Utility
All Clerics Core
So much suck here. You are probably going to take Cure Light Wounds, because it is a healing effect and you can only muster 2 heals per encounter at this point without dipping into your dailies, making your status as the healer questionable. It costs a standard action and does not heal a lot, but it does not require a surge, which is pretty impressive at this point.
All Clerics Divine Power
5 new options
Considering the fact that you have an infinite amount of non surge based healing available to you at this point, you would think that Cure Light Wounds would be pretty bad, but that underestimates that amount of suck WotC has put here.
Divine Power gives a power bonus to an ally’s next skill check. There are two skills systems in 4e. In the original version, players always lose, and this power does not help. In the errata version, players always win, and this power does not help.
Return from Death’s Door is like healing word except that it heals less, can only be used once a day, and can only be used after somebody blows a death saving throw. It sucks.
Armor of Faith and Holy Vestments are daily defensive powers that might be powerful enough to throw somebody of the RNG, but its unlikely. Still, it is perhaps the best of a mediocre bunch.
Life Transference looks good but a closer examination reveals that its not. It is a very efficient spell, damaging you for the amount you surge for and giving an ally double that amount (plus healing lore). Also, it is encounter based.
This is the first of many powers that have a theme of hurting yourself to help an ally. The bad part about these, in addition to the fact that you have to kick your character right in the scrotum in order to help some other jerk, is that healing yourself has become rather hard. Astral sign can heal anyone in the party except for yourself and many really great healing powers that are coming up like Healing Spirit only help allies and in 4e you are not your ally. Also, many new DMs that learned from WoW know that agro means kill the priest first. Even new powers that WotC is publishing seem to encourage a kill the priest attitude. For example, Sacred Beneficence gives an ally regeneration 10 until you become bloody.
3rd Level Encounter
Core Laser Cleric
2 options. You can debuff an enemy with Command, or you damage and inflict a smaller debuff on an enemy with daunting light. Creativity Fail.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
Astral Flare is a group daze spell. Light of Arvandor does shitty damage and has a shitty buff. The only thing that keeps this from being a bad at will is that it affects a shitty area. Hymn of Resurgence seems to work on the assumption that combining many negligible effects together will make a level appropriate effect. Instead it is just really fucking annoying.
All options are pretty bad here. Pick the one you hate the least, or just pick randomly.
Core Muscle Cleric
Spilt the Sky is damage plus movement plus prone. That’s pretty much better than all of the laser options. The other one gives a massive bonus to ranged attackers, so it might be useful depending on your party. Then again, if you are playing a muscle cleric in a ranged party you are doing it wrong
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Hammer of the Gods is a weaker version of Exacting Utterance. Is still might be worth it if your team is prepared to nova after it takes effect.
5th Level Daily
All Core Clerics
Consecrated Ground is super special awesome. It does some negligible damage, but the main draw is it gives everyone in a zone 1 plus CHA hp. Remember, in 4e even a single point of healing brings you from dying to ready to rock. As long as you keep sustaining it with a minor action, everyone in the area will rise to their feet to on their turn. Its like a circle of immortality and rivals Sleep for the most powerful early daily. This is pretty much the tipping point for the core cleric, the point at which they start becoming the sort of character that can single handedly carry the party. You are going to take this and you are going to keep it and you are going to spend all your money to acquire Salves of Power so you can use it multiple times.
All Divine Power Clerics
Are you fucking retarded? Take Consecrated Ground, the power that makes death all but impossible.
6th Utility
All Clerics Core
You pick up Bastion of Health and call it a good day. With that, laser clerics are able to heal three times without burning a daily and you could even heal twice in a single turn without burning a daily. Muscle clerics get four heals. Score.
All Clerics Divine Power
5 new options
You probably take Spirit of Healing, which gives everyone in an area triple your wisdom in healing every time they attack. That should be like 15 for a laser cleric, so you can seriously heal your team around a hundred hp each round with this. Note that you can’t heal yourself however. Muscle clerics might prefer Stream of Healing, which heals an ally for 15 plus WIS every time you accept a 5 hp kick in the balls. Either way you are looking at a straight up power up of what you were originally doing.
7th Level Encounter
Core Laser Cleric
You got a choice. You can damage and debuff or damage and debuff. WotC has so many creative ideas that it is hard to contain them all.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
So many bad options. Denunciation is Bane plus a daze effect. Zealous Sanction is straight worse than your at will, because it offers surge based healing instead of surgeless and uses the same mechanic. Also it misses more.
Price of Violence is crap. The only real reason to take it is if your battles in 4e are over so quick that you feel you need more free action type effects. Tell me what you are doing if you feel this is true. It also has a tendency to fail to do anything. See, it lasts until the end of your next turn and it applies after their turn, so if they are slower than you they are actually blinded during their downtime between turns.
Core Muscle Cleric
You take Strengthen the Faithful, which is decent damage for you and works as an area heal. That’s actually pretty awesome
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Bolt of Warding is complicated to track and only ever offers five points of extra damage. Strike of Judgment is weak but hilarious because it will many times involve someone punching you in the face and you gaining life.
9th level daily
All Core Clerics
Blade Barrier for murder pinball.
Divine Power Laser Clerics
2 new options
Hey, there is actually some cool stuff here. Dismissal throws people out of the universe until they make a save, and it actually still makes them lose a turn on a miss. The best thing to do is to stack save penalties until it acts like 2e imprisonment. Everyone already takes –2 to their saves when hit with this effect and certain creatures have –5 penalty, so stranding someone in their own personal, solitary hell until the eventually starve to death is actually pretty easy.
As cool as that is, Rebuke Violence is even better. I think its inspired by the Clockwork Orange. You basically mindrape the victim into being a pacifist until you attack them. Everyone has –5 save penalty with this. Again, you want to stack so many penalties that saving is impossible. Then you never attack them. Then they die in some random encounter because they are no longer able to protect themselves and 4e is a world of darkness.
Divine Power Muscle Clerics
2 new options
Crucial Resurgence only works when you are bloody, but it lets all allies with 5 squares spend a healing surge so it is the widest area heal at this point except for Healer’s Mercy which you got at level 1 for some crack smoking reason.
Divine Fury is your weak less wisdom dependant knock off of Spirit of Healing. Its weaker and can’t be moved, but zone based surgeless healing is so good that you might have to take this while any wisdom clerics in the area laugh at you. The best part of it is its description however. It says it creates a zone of “divine fury” like that is supposed to mean anything.
“Papa, what’s that over there?”
“That some divine fury, son. Been many a year since we had some of that wash up on the farm.”
I was going to rate all the powers here, but there are 96 new powers, so fuck that noise. Instead I am going to highlight some of the options available for the two types of cleric. Utility powers aren’t divided because they are almost always wisdom, charisma, or no stat based. Because the 4e scale is so low, I am also going to talk about the best options that were in core to provide a frame of reference.
Note: I ended up rating almost all the powers because I am a fucking moron.
At Wills
Old Edition Laser Cleric
You had two at wills based on Wisdom, and could select 2 at wills. Sacred flame does crap damage and gives like 2 points of temp hp at level one. Lance of Flame does one more point of damage on average and gives any ally a plus 2 power bonus to hit. You usually use Lance of Flame so that at least you can support someone with a class like ranger that is actually doing something meaningful to your enemies.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
You only get one new at will, Astral Mark, but it is awesome. No damage, but you have a plus 2 to hit, it lowers an enemy’s defense by 2, and the next ally who hit them gains 2+CHA+WIS in hp. It gives the wizard about half his hp back without using a surge, and it gives a bonus to hit comparable to righteous brand (spread out amongst the whole party), and it is the most likely power to hit. It almost single handedly makes a low level laser cleric bearable and you would be a fool not to take it.
Old Edition Muscle Cleric
You have Righteous Brand, which is awesomely powerful and seriously one of the best buffing powers in the game. It won’t take you long at all to send an ally completely off the range. Alternately, you can use Priest’s Shield, but you only do that if your mother did not love you enough as a child and consequently you feel the need to hurt yourself.
New Edition Muscle Cleric.
Same as before Righteous Brand dominates. Still, Recovery Strike will be the other power you take. Recovery Strike heals hp, but less than a laser cleric because you are not getting a crap load of extra healing from healer’s lore. Even with the surgeless healing, there is a good chance that you will forget you even have a second at will.
1st level encounters
Core Laser Cleric
You have two powers you can select, Cause Fear and Divine Glow. Cause Fear does no damage but forces an enemy to flee. Then next turn they charge into you. Expect to have big arguments over this one because it says that enemies have to flee but can try to take a safe route and there is no guidance about how much of a detour they can make. Divine Glow is an area attack for crap damage but buffs your allies instead of hurting them. You usually take Divine Glow and call yourself an off controller, but that is one sucky role to have.
Divine Power Laser Cleric.
3 new options
Bane subtracts your CHA from an opponent’s attack and defense. If you have high CHA you can really throw them off the range. Unfortunately, you probably don’t have the CHA. Exacting Utterance is a pretty awesome situational power. It gives the opponent a vulnerability equal to your wisdom (so five) and also gives your allies that attack him your Wisdom in temp hp. It does not sound that good, but remember that a ranger by himself can fire off four attacks by just using an action point and spamming his at will. Note that you can keep this effect up for two turns by delaying your turn.
Core Muscle Cleric
You can have Healing Strike for small damage and healing surge or Wrathful Thunder for small damage and a debuff. Go Healing Strike because you are a healing guy.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Both are worse than your originals. Numinous Shield is small damage plus AC buff. Warpriest’s Strike does better damage and gives a debuff that is better than Numinous Shield’s buff . So you take Warpriest’s Strike if you don’t want Healing Strike.
Level 1 Daily
Core Laser Cleric and Muscle Cleric
There is a bunch of weird crap here, like the Guardian of Faith, which is like an early attempt at a summon. Pretty much everyone takes Beacon of Hope however, which is you first area heal, buffs all preceding heals in the encounter, and weakens enemies for a turn.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
Astral Condemnation would be pretty good because it passes out a damage penalty of 5 plus CHA and can be sustained. Moment of Glory, however, is an area effect that pushes an enemy and knocks them prone but more importantly gives DR 5 to all the good guys in the blast. That pretty much takes everyone out of the enemies’ damage range. Its like someone combined stoneskin and great thunderclap, then dumped it at level one in an edition in which you are supposed to care about a plus 1 to hit once an encounter. Lasts as long as it is sustained.
A smart player saves this for a big fight, which then becomes trivial. A devious player hopes that their DM did notice that sustainable powers are only supposed to last 5 minutes (I didn’t) uses this first thing on the weakest enemy they can find then keeps it up all day by spending their minor action, pretty much breaking the game until level 5 or so when enemies can finally do some decent damage through that. Either way you cast this and be the party’s MVP even if you then spend all your remaining turns going back to the tavern and hitting on the wenches. There is only one word for a power like that; fantasterrific.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Shield of the Gods is your shitty knock off of Moment of Glory. Its a smaller area and it damages instead of pushes, but the real deal breaker is the fact that is only gives plus 3 to reflex and AC to one ally. It’s an inferior defense given to only one character instead of all of them. Astral weapon gives you an extra attack for 1W as long as you sustain it. That sounds terrible, but that’s enough to bring you to striker level at will damage, even without the to hit bonus you are giving out. You might want Moment of Glory even without the right stat, because of its fantasterrificness.
Level 2 Utility
All Clerics Core
So much suck here. You are probably going to take Cure Light Wounds, because it is a healing effect and you can only muster 2 heals per encounter at this point without dipping into your dailies, making your status as the healer questionable. It costs a standard action and does not heal a lot, but it does not require a surge, which is pretty impressive at this point.
All Clerics Divine Power
5 new options
Considering the fact that you have an infinite amount of non surge based healing available to you at this point, you would think that Cure Light Wounds would be pretty bad, but that underestimates that amount of suck WotC has put here.
Divine Power gives a power bonus to an ally’s next skill check. There are two skills systems in 4e. In the original version, players always lose, and this power does not help. In the errata version, players always win, and this power does not help.
Return from Death’s Door is like healing word except that it heals less, can only be used once a day, and can only be used after somebody blows a death saving throw. It sucks.
Armor of Faith and Holy Vestments are daily defensive powers that might be powerful enough to throw somebody of the RNG, but its unlikely. Still, it is perhaps the best of a mediocre bunch.
Life Transference looks good but a closer examination reveals that its not. It is a very efficient spell, damaging you for the amount you surge for and giving an ally double that amount (plus healing lore). Also, it is encounter based.
This is the first of many powers that have a theme of hurting yourself to help an ally. The bad part about these, in addition to the fact that you have to kick your character right in the scrotum in order to help some other jerk, is that healing yourself has become rather hard. Astral sign can heal anyone in the party except for yourself and many really great healing powers that are coming up like Healing Spirit only help allies and in 4e you are not your ally. Also, many new DMs that learned from WoW know that agro means kill the priest first. Even new powers that WotC is publishing seem to encourage a kill the priest attitude. For example, Sacred Beneficence gives an ally regeneration 10 until you become bloody.
3rd Level Encounter
Core Laser Cleric
2 options. You can debuff an enemy with Command, or you damage and inflict a smaller debuff on an enemy with daunting light. Creativity Fail.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
Astral Flare is a group daze spell. Light of Arvandor does shitty damage and has a shitty buff. The only thing that keeps this from being a bad at will is that it affects a shitty area. Hymn of Resurgence seems to work on the assumption that combining many negligible effects together will make a level appropriate effect. Instead it is just really fucking annoying.
All options are pretty bad here. Pick the one you hate the least, or just pick randomly.
Core Muscle Cleric
Spilt the Sky is damage plus movement plus prone. That’s pretty much better than all of the laser options. The other one gives a massive bonus to ranged attackers, so it might be useful depending on your party. Then again, if you are playing a muscle cleric in a ranged party you are doing it wrong
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Hammer of the Gods is a weaker version of Exacting Utterance. Is still might be worth it if your team is prepared to nova after it takes effect.
5th Level Daily
All Core Clerics
Consecrated Ground is super special awesome. It does some negligible damage, but the main draw is it gives everyone in a zone 1 plus CHA hp. Remember, in 4e even a single point of healing brings you from dying to ready to rock. As long as you keep sustaining it with a minor action, everyone in the area will rise to their feet to on their turn. Its like a circle of immortality and rivals Sleep for the most powerful early daily. This is pretty much the tipping point for the core cleric, the point at which they start becoming the sort of character that can single handedly carry the party. You are going to take this and you are going to keep it and you are going to spend all your money to acquire Salves of Power so you can use it multiple times.
All Divine Power Clerics
Are you fucking retarded? Take Consecrated Ground, the power that makes death all but impossible.
6th Utility
All Clerics Core
You pick up Bastion of Health and call it a good day. With that, laser clerics are able to heal three times without burning a daily and you could even heal twice in a single turn without burning a daily. Muscle clerics get four heals. Score.
All Clerics Divine Power
5 new options
You probably take Spirit of Healing, which gives everyone in an area triple your wisdom in healing every time they attack. That should be like 15 for a laser cleric, so you can seriously heal your team around a hundred hp each round with this. Note that you can’t heal yourself however. Muscle clerics might prefer Stream of Healing, which heals an ally for 15 plus WIS every time you accept a 5 hp kick in the balls. Either way you are looking at a straight up power up of what you were originally doing.
7th Level Encounter
Core Laser Cleric
You got a choice. You can damage and debuff or damage and debuff. WotC has so many creative ideas that it is hard to contain them all.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
So many bad options. Denunciation is Bane plus a daze effect. Zealous Sanction is straight worse than your at will, because it offers surge based healing instead of surgeless and uses the same mechanic. Also it misses more.
Price of Violence is crap. The only real reason to take it is if your battles in 4e are over so quick that you feel you need more free action type effects. Tell me what you are doing if you feel this is true. It also has a tendency to fail to do anything. See, it lasts until the end of your next turn and it applies after their turn, so if they are slower than you they are actually blinded during their downtime between turns.
Core Muscle Cleric
You take Strengthen the Faithful, which is decent damage for you and works as an area heal. That’s actually pretty awesome
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Bolt of Warding is complicated to track and only ever offers five points of extra damage. Strike of Judgment is weak but hilarious because it will many times involve someone punching you in the face and you gaining life.
9th level daily
All Core Clerics
Blade Barrier for murder pinball.
Divine Power Laser Clerics
2 new options
Hey, there is actually some cool stuff here. Dismissal throws people out of the universe until they make a save, and it actually still makes them lose a turn on a miss. The best thing to do is to stack save penalties until it acts like 2e imprisonment. Everyone already takes –2 to their saves when hit with this effect and certain creatures have –5 penalty, so stranding someone in their own personal, solitary hell until the eventually starve to death is actually pretty easy.
As cool as that is, Rebuke Violence is even better. I think its inspired by the Clockwork Orange. You basically mindrape the victim into being a pacifist until you attack them. Everyone has –5 save penalty with this. Again, you want to stack so many penalties that saving is impossible. Then you never attack them. Then they die in some random encounter because they are no longer able to protect themselves and 4e is a world of darkness.
Divine Power Muscle Clerics
2 new options
Crucial Resurgence only works when you are bloody, but it lets all allies with 5 squares spend a healing surge so it is the widest area heal at this point except for Healer’s Mercy which you got at level 1 for some crack smoking reason.
Divine Fury is your weak less wisdom dependant knock off of Spirit of Healing. Its weaker and can’t be moved, but zone based surgeless healing is so good that you might have to take this while any wisdom clerics in the area laugh at you. The best part of it is its description however. It says it creates a zone of “divine fury” like that is supposed to mean anything.
“Papa, what’s that over there?”
“That some divine fury, son. Been many a year since we had some of that wash up on the farm.”
Last edited by shau on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
10th level Utility
All Core Clerics
Mass Cure Light Wounds for wide area surgeless healing, but while were here let’s laugh at Astral Refuge which takes one ally out of the battle for 3 turns to heal 75 percent of their hp at the cost of 3 surges.
Divine Power Clerics
Couple decent options. Word of Vigor is like Healing Word with an area. Sacred Beneficence grants regeneration 10 + WIS to somebody, which is pretty damn unbeatable at this level. On the other hand it goes away if you become bloodied so you pretty much just glued a target on your ass.
13th Level Encounters Core
Core Wisdom Clerics
Mantle of Glory is pretty awesome as its both an area attack and an area heal as the authors simultaneously decide to give your healing character an actual encounter heal and remember that previously they were giving you area effect attack powers. Divine Plague is another damage plus debuff thing. I can’t figure out what the design process looked to have produced so many of these.
“Alright, we need a couple new wisdom cleric powers.”
“How about a healing power. Because clerics are healers?”
“You’re fired. Pack your bags. Alan, you always have great ideas, what do you think we should do?”
“Maybe some sort of power that does small damage plus wisdom.”
“Perfect! I love it.”
“But wait, there’s more. It could have some sort of debuffing effect as well.”
“That’s even better than perfect. This is going to be the most interesting edition ever.”
Divine Power Laser Clerics
3 new options (plus one dual option)
I would have thought that Crown of Light was a joke if I was not looking at it right now. Instead of giving you another attack that has a buffing effect afterwards, they reach deep down inside and push their creativity to the absolute limit to give you a buff followed by an attack. Deadly Lure is like a combo between Cause Fear and Exacting Utterance except it pulls the monster into melee, which makes it both weak and against the idea of being a ranged character. Remorse is a decent debuff/heal power.
Angel’s Whisper deserves a comment because it requires wisdom and strength and thus would be a failure of a skill if not for the fact that it works on a charge and thus apparently can be used to do some obscene damage. Don’t take it until the Char Op board is back and you can see how the people who wank off to this stuff have managed to combine it with other effects to make it do game breaking damage. (Hi, Titanium Dragon)
Core Muscle Clerics
Encounter based surgeless healing or a strange version of the nerfed version of Dual Strike. You take the healing and feel lucky that the authors consistently remembered you are some kinda healing guy up to this point. They all but forget that after here.
Divine Power Muscle Clerics
1 new option
Look, you get an attack and a debuff. What a novel idea.
15th level daily
Core Laser Cleric
Purifying fire sets enemies on fire, but your allies gain hp if they are near the burning enemies. This is pretty bad, but you take it because of the awesome mental image of your team warming their bones by standing next to an immolated goblin screaming in agony and because the other option is some sort attack buff/debuff combo and I think I am having a small seizure every time I see one of those.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
Brilliant Censure is a type of buff/debuff and is probably the best option. The other two look like they should be much further down in level, especially Penance of Blood, which is like an area version of Exacting Utterance, your level 1 encounter power.
Fuck it, take Dismissal or Rebuke Violence, whichever you did not take before.
Core Muscle Cleric
You take Holy Spark for damage plus ongoing damage save ends because that is the only strength option.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 options
Strength of the Fallen gives you 4W damage plus an accuracy bonus if you are gangbanging the target. Probably best of a bad lot.
Ivory Rampart is also available, and is the best defender power I have seen. Basically a wall springs up around you and immobilizes enemies that enter it. Unfortunately, you are not a defender.
Level 16 Utility
All Core Clerics
Not a single goddamn healing power here. How the fuck do you even design that badly? You take Divine Armor for DR 5, meaning that you just spent you level 16 slot to do something that Divine Power Clerics did with their first daily. And why the hell does it have the healing tag? IT DOES NOT HEAL!
Divine Power Clerics
5 new options
I’m ashamed to admit it, but it took Lago to point out to me how awesome Cloak of Courage is. Basically you have an encounter power that gives everyone a free healing surge of temp hp, but you don’t need an enemy so you basically gave everyone 25 percent more hp and you can heal that for free after every encounter.
Radiant Beams is a very situational power but it gives 20 DR against necrotic damage, which means it pretty much throws your whole party off the damage range if it gets used.
Also see Air Walk, which is like flight if it were designed to be absolutely useless. You can go up, but you can’t avoid combat. You just hang two squares up in reach of everything, like a piñata. The real purpose of this power is noncombat challenges. You can use it to do exciting things like cross a dangerous canyon or get the sugar off of the really high shelf.
Level 17 Encounter Power
Core Laser Cleric
Enthrall is area damage plus debuff. Thunderous Word is an upgraded version of a wizard at will.
Divine Power Cleric.
3 new options
Two types of powers here, debuffing powers or damage and debuffing powers. Take Sever the Source because it is a slightly upgraded Exacting Utterance. Or stick with Thunderous Word if your team is set up for murder pinball and you can tolerate the wizard’s laughter.
Core Muscle Cleric
Blinding Light is not only a damage and debuff, but also a damage and debuff that a laser cleric had at level 7 with Searing Light. Sentinel Strike protects one ally against one enemy for a turn, which sucks, but you take it because the only other option is something the laser cleric got 10 levels ago and hated then.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Weak damage plus weak debuff or weak damage plus weak buff and largely useless teleport. The debuff version is a power that laser clerics with high cha had at level 7 as well.
What the hell did you do Muscle Cleric? You used to be getting the sweet crush your enemies and heal your allies powers, now your dumpster diving thorough stuff the laser cleric got 10 levels ago. Did you shoot the designer’s dog or something?
Level 19 Daily
Core Laser Cleric
Another night of cocaine and booze has left the designers with the impression that you are a controller again and they gave you Fire Storm. Still, this power is pretty cool. Huge area, decent damage even on a miss, the cloud of knives minion auto-die effect, sustainability, and the fact that it distinguishes between enemies and allies means that you beat controllers at the area damage game, which is the only game some of them have. Plus you can just sort of chill in there with your buds not taking any damage while your enemies burn.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
Moment of Peace stops monsters in a large area from attacking, which pretty much means they lose a turn in 4e. Miraculous Intervention is an action less healing word for the dying plus weak attack. Supernal Radiance is a damage plus ongoing damage (save ends) but pretty much will always do less than Fire Storm so fuck it.
Core Muscle Cleric
You get two options, and they both act like powers that Divine Power gives you 10 levels earlier. Indomitable Spirit is Crucial Resurgence with more damage and no bloody requirement. Holy Wrath is Sacred Beneficence but you get the regeneration plus a minor AC buff plus deal damage.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Beacon of Doom is damage plus debuff save ends, but also has a somewhat unique effect that lets surrounding allies get extra basic attacks in. If you are in a party of burly muscle men this will absolutely do enough damage that you will care. If you are in a party of weakling smart asses this will accomplish nothing except hold up the game as your allies weakly flail at the offending monster.
Realm of Battle is an attack plus buff zone with a handful, of effects. The fact that the authors think I still care about a plus 1 power bonus to attack and AC at this point in the game is so insulting that I am literally angry with rage.
Level 22 Utility Powers
All Core Clerics
Cloud Chariot is a magical flying car that carries the whole party and lasts all day. You take this.
Trap options include Clarion Call to the Astral Sea (heal plus lose a turn) and Spirit of Health which is similar to the new Spirit of Healing except it requires surges, heals far less, and show up 18 levels later.
Divine Power Clerics
5 new options
This level is filled with powers that you would have sworn had already been written. Can you seriously believe that it took them this long to print Heal and Mass Cure Serious Wounds?
The only power that compares to your magical flying car is Revive, which raises the dead without charging you 50k. Avoiding that cost might be enough to make you want to invest in it instead of your super awesome magical flying car, at least with a melee party. Still, I can’t imagine you dipping below the negative seventy hp or so it takes to kill you unless your DM loves to coup de grace dying characters.
Level 23 Encounter Powers
Core Laser Cleric
Apparently, the author ran out of debuffs because Astral Blades of Death is straight damage. Healing Torch is area damage and buff and surge healing, so that’s the one you take.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
Rebuke the Wrathful is Beacon of Doom with no damage but as an encounter. Its good or bad for the same reasons Beacon of Doom was. Word of Deterrence pushes the target and threatens them with damage if they attack. Since the damage it deals is equal to that of an average level 10 striker using an at will, the enemy attacks anyway. Spirit Flame removes negative conditions from your character, but really sucks. Spending a turn removing slowed from yourself basically just upgrades it to stun. More hilariously, it actually offers you the chance to spend a standard action you don’t have to remove stun.
Core Muscle Cleric
Damage and amazingly shitty buff or debuff. Seriously, minus 2 to defense or plus 2 to attack at this level? Take Haunting Strike for 4(W).
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Mortal Terror is 3(W) plus Cause Fear, in case you were jealous of that effect Laser Clerics got at first level. Divine Fervor is an upgraded Healer’s Strike doing more damage and letting you and an ally spend a surge instead of just you or the ally, but that is enough to easily win this tier.
Level 25 Daily powers
Core Laser Cleric
You take Seal of Binding and combine it with regeneration or healing to single handedly take out a solo by yourself.
Divine Power Cleric
2 new options
Since you pretty much are going to stick with Seal of Binding, the author felt free to get creative and publishes two really weird powers. Life Lanterns is one of the weirdest powers printed in 4e. Not good, just weird.
Divine Intervention is a power so weird I think it was written by some hobo on a mix of stimulants and hallucinogens
“Okay I got this new idea. This power works when an ally gets hit. You teleport and switch places with them and you take the hit. Buy you don’t get hurt because you replace their weapon with a healing shiv and it helps you. Not wait, not you but the guy who just teleported. Then you flash and blind everyone for some reason.”
Core Muscle Cleric
Big damage and minor debuff or smaller damage and better debuff. You rue the day you decided to not be a laser cleric on this level.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
3 new options
Damage plus ongoing damage plus debuff or damage plus buff and ally shifting when you move or a self buff followed by an attack. God I hate these things so much.
Level 27 Encounter Powers
Core Laser Cleric
With Sunburst you finally get some non daily non surge based healing. And it heals an area and attacks an area. Score.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
Stun, damage, and debuff, or stun and surgebased healing, or area damage, debuff, and roll and an extra save. Stick with Sunburst.
Core Muscle Cleric
Sacrificial Healing is decent damage plus surge based area heal. That’s pretty decent, though much worse than Sunburst.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new powers
Scouring Strike does damage over an area and gives vulnerability 5. Remember the first time we saw vulnerability 5? Level goddamn 1. Stroke of Ruin is goddamn hilarious. It does 3W damage and weakens the opponent unless the opponent is strong against necrotic damage in which case it stuns the enemy. It’s the only time you want an enemy to be strong against the damage you deal.
Level 29 daily
Almost done. Considering there are just 2 of these in core I think the designers were just as sick of this shit as I am.
Core Wisdom Cleric
You take Astral Storm because that is the wisdom one and wonder why the hell your capstone leader power is a controller power. Still it is a straight up powerup on Fire Storm
Divine Power Laser Cleric
Breath of the Gods is like a crazy grab bag of all your powers. Area damage, pushing, debuff, and surgeless healing. Not bad considering the surgeless healing. Enforced Surrender is a dominate effect with a debuff on a miss. Chains of the Peacemaker is a debuff that you take if you do not like nice things.
Core Muscle Cleric
Godstrike is 7W plus Strength…that’s it. I hate 4e so much right now.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
Astral Exile is a very late Dismissal type effect that trades the save penalty for 4W damage. That makes it straight out worse than what laser clerics got at level 7 but I bet people who know all the 4e tricks can turn this into an eternal stunlock so it is your best option. Stern Damage is damage plus ongoing damage but also blinds people who hang around that enemy. Its like you force them to where a blindingly obnoxious shirt.
All Core Clerics
Mass Cure Light Wounds for wide area surgeless healing, but while were here let’s laugh at Astral Refuge which takes one ally out of the battle for 3 turns to heal 75 percent of their hp at the cost of 3 surges.
Divine Power Clerics
Couple decent options. Word of Vigor is like Healing Word with an area. Sacred Beneficence grants regeneration 10 + WIS to somebody, which is pretty damn unbeatable at this level. On the other hand it goes away if you become bloodied so you pretty much just glued a target on your ass.
13th Level Encounters Core
Core Wisdom Clerics
Mantle of Glory is pretty awesome as its both an area attack and an area heal as the authors simultaneously decide to give your healing character an actual encounter heal and remember that previously they were giving you area effect attack powers. Divine Plague is another damage plus debuff thing. I can’t figure out what the design process looked to have produced so many of these.
“Alright, we need a couple new wisdom cleric powers.”
“How about a healing power. Because clerics are healers?”
“You’re fired. Pack your bags. Alan, you always have great ideas, what do you think we should do?”
“Maybe some sort of power that does small damage plus wisdom.”
“Perfect! I love it.”
“But wait, there’s more. It could have some sort of debuffing effect as well.”
“That’s even better than perfect. This is going to be the most interesting edition ever.”
Divine Power Laser Clerics
3 new options (plus one dual option)
I would have thought that Crown of Light was a joke if I was not looking at it right now. Instead of giving you another attack that has a buffing effect afterwards, they reach deep down inside and push their creativity to the absolute limit to give you a buff followed by an attack. Deadly Lure is like a combo between Cause Fear and Exacting Utterance except it pulls the monster into melee, which makes it both weak and against the idea of being a ranged character. Remorse is a decent debuff/heal power.
Angel’s Whisper deserves a comment because it requires wisdom and strength and thus would be a failure of a skill if not for the fact that it works on a charge and thus apparently can be used to do some obscene damage. Don’t take it until the Char Op board is back and you can see how the people who wank off to this stuff have managed to combine it with other effects to make it do game breaking damage. (Hi, Titanium Dragon)
Core Muscle Clerics
Encounter based surgeless healing or a strange version of the nerfed version of Dual Strike. You take the healing and feel lucky that the authors consistently remembered you are some kinda healing guy up to this point. They all but forget that after here.
Divine Power Muscle Clerics
1 new option
Look, you get an attack and a debuff. What a novel idea.
15th level daily
Core Laser Cleric
Purifying fire sets enemies on fire, but your allies gain hp if they are near the burning enemies. This is pretty bad, but you take it because of the awesome mental image of your team warming their bones by standing next to an immolated goblin screaming in agony and because the other option is some sort attack buff/debuff combo and I think I am having a small seizure every time I see one of those.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
Brilliant Censure is a type of buff/debuff and is probably the best option. The other two look like they should be much further down in level, especially Penance of Blood, which is like an area version of Exacting Utterance, your level 1 encounter power.
Fuck it, take Dismissal or Rebuke Violence, whichever you did not take before.
Core Muscle Cleric
You take Holy Spark for damage plus ongoing damage save ends because that is the only strength option.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 options
Strength of the Fallen gives you 4W damage plus an accuracy bonus if you are gangbanging the target. Probably best of a bad lot.
Ivory Rampart is also available, and is the best defender power I have seen. Basically a wall springs up around you and immobilizes enemies that enter it. Unfortunately, you are not a defender.
Level 16 Utility
All Core Clerics
Not a single goddamn healing power here. How the fuck do you even design that badly? You take Divine Armor for DR 5, meaning that you just spent you level 16 slot to do something that Divine Power Clerics did with their first daily. And why the hell does it have the healing tag? IT DOES NOT HEAL!
Divine Power Clerics
5 new options
I’m ashamed to admit it, but it took Lago to point out to me how awesome Cloak of Courage is. Basically you have an encounter power that gives everyone a free healing surge of temp hp, but you don’t need an enemy so you basically gave everyone 25 percent more hp and you can heal that for free after every encounter.
Radiant Beams is a very situational power but it gives 20 DR against necrotic damage, which means it pretty much throws your whole party off the damage range if it gets used.
Also see Air Walk, which is like flight if it were designed to be absolutely useless. You can go up, but you can’t avoid combat. You just hang two squares up in reach of everything, like a piñata. The real purpose of this power is noncombat challenges. You can use it to do exciting things like cross a dangerous canyon or get the sugar off of the really high shelf.
Level 17 Encounter Power
Core Laser Cleric
Enthrall is area damage plus debuff. Thunderous Word is an upgraded version of a wizard at will.
Divine Power Cleric.
3 new options
Two types of powers here, debuffing powers or damage and debuffing powers. Take Sever the Source because it is a slightly upgraded Exacting Utterance. Or stick with Thunderous Word if your team is set up for murder pinball and you can tolerate the wizard’s laughter.
Core Muscle Cleric
Blinding Light is not only a damage and debuff, but also a damage and debuff that a laser cleric had at level 7 with Searing Light. Sentinel Strike protects one ally against one enemy for a turn, which sucks, but you take it because the only other option is something the laser cleric got 10 levels ago and hated then.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Weak damage plus weak debuff or weak damage plus weak buff and largely useless teleport. The debuff version is a power that laser clerics with high cha had at level 7 as well.
What the hell did you do Muscle Cleric? You used to be getting the sweet crush your enemies and heal your allies powers, now your dumpster diving thorough stuff the laser cleric got 10 levels ago. Did you shoot the designer’s dog or something?
Level 19 Daily
Core Laser Cleric
Another night of cocaine and booze has left the designers with the impression that you are a controller again and they gave you Fire Storm. Still, this power is pretty cool. Huge area, decent damage even on a miss, the cloud of knives minion auto-die effect, sustainability, and the fact that it distinguishes between enemies and allies means that you beat controllers at the area damage game, which is the only game some of them have. Plus you can just sort of chill in there with your buds not taking any damage while your enemies burn.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
Moment of Peace stops monsters in a large area from attacking, which pretty much means they lose a turn in 4e. Miraculous Intervention is an action less healing word for the dying plus weak attack. Supernal Radiance is a damage plus ongoing damage (save ends) but pretty much will always do less than Fire Storm so fuck it.
Core Muscle Cleric
You get two options, and they both act like powers that Divine Power gives you 10 levels earlier. Indomitable Spirit is Crucial Resurgence with more damage and no bloody requirement. Holy Wrath is Sacred Beneficence but you get the regeneration plus a minor AC buff plus deal damage.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Beacon of Doom is damage plus debuff save ends, but also has a somewhat unique effect that lets surrounding allies get extra basic attacks in. If you are in a party of burly muscle men this will absolutely do enough damage that you will care. If you are in a party of weakling smart asses this will accomplish nothing except hold up the game as your allies weakly flail at the offending monster.
Realm of Battle is an attack plus buff zone with a handful, of effects. The fact that the authors think I still care about a plus 1 power bonus to attack and AC at this point in the game is so insulting that I am literally angry with rage.
Level 22 Utility Powers
All Core Clerics
Cloud Chariot is a magical flying car that carries the whole party and lasts all day. You take this.
Trap options include Clarion Call to the Astral Sea (heal plus lose a turn) and Spirit of Health which is similar to the new Spirit of Healing except it requires surges, heals far less, and show up 18 levels later.
Divine Power Clerics
5 new options
This level is filled with powers that you would have sworn had already been written. Can you seriously believe that it took them this long to print Heal and Mass Cure Serious Wounds?
The only power that compares to your magical flying car is Revive, which raises the dead without charging you 50k. Avoiding that cost might be enough to make you want to invest in it instead of your super awesome magical flying car, at least with a melee party. Still, I can’t imagine you dipping below the negative seventy hp or so it takes to kill you unless your DM loves to coup de grace dying characters.
Level 23 Encounter Powers
Core Laser Cleric
Apparently, the author ran out of debuffs because Astral Blades of Death is straight damage. Healing Torch is area damage and buff and surge healing, so that’s the one you take.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
Rebuke the Wrathful is Beacon of Doom with no damage but as an encounter. Its good or bad for the same reasons Beacon of Doom was. Word of Deterrence pushes the target and threatens them with damage if they attack. Since the damage it deals is equal to that of an average level 10 striker using an at will, the enemy attacks anyway. Spirit Flame removes negative conditions from your character, but really sucks. Spending a turn removing slowed from yourself basically just upgrades it to stun. More hilariously, it actually offers you the chance to spend a standard action you don’t have to remove stun.
Core Muscle Cleric
Damage and amazingly shitty buff or debuff. Seriously, minus 2 to defense or plus 2 to attack at this level? Take Haunting Strike for 4(W).
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new options
Mortal Terror is 3(W) plus Cause Fear, in case you were jealous of that effect Laser Clerics got at first level. Divine Fervor is an upgraded Healer’s Strike doing more damage and letting you and an ally spend a surge instead of just you or the ally, but that is enough to easily win this tier.
Level 25 Daily powers
Core Laser Cleric
You take Seal of Binding and combine it with regeneration or healing to single handedly take out a solo by yourself.
Divine Power Cleric
2 new options
Since you pretty much are going to stick with Seal of Binding, the author felt free to get creative and publishes two really weird powers. Life Lanterns is one of the weirdest powers printed in 4e. Not good, just weird.
Divine Intervention is a power so weird I think it was written by some hobo on a mix of stimulants and hallucinogens
“Okay I got this new idea. This power works when an ally gets hit. You teleport and switch places with them and you take the hit. Buy you don’t get hurt because you replace their weapon with a healing shiv and it helps you. Not wait, not you but the guy who just teleported. Then you flash and blind everyone for some reason.”
Core Muscle Cleric
Big damage and minor debuff or smaller damage and better debuff. You rue the day you decided to not be a laser cleric on this level.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
3 new options
Damage plus ongoing damage plus debuff or damage plus buff and ally shifting when you move or a self buff followed by an attack. God I hate these things so much.
Level 27 Encounter Powers
Core Laser Cleric
With Sunburst you finally get some non daily non surge based healing. And it heals an area and attacks an area. Score.
Divine Power Laser Cleric
3 new options
Stun, damage, and debuff, or stun and surgebased healing, or area damage, debuff, and roll and an extra save. Stick with Sunburst.
Core Muscle Cleric
Sacrificial Healing is decent damage plus surge based area heal. That’s pretty decent, though much worse than Sunburst.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
2 new powers
Scouring Strike does damage over an area and gives vulnerability 5. Remember the first time we saw vulnerability 5? Level goddamn 1. Stroke of Ruin is goddamn hilarious. It does 3W damage and weakens the opponent unless the opponent is strong against necrotic damage in which case it stuns the enemy. It’s the only time you want an enemy to be strong against the damage you deal.
Level 29 daily
Almost done. Considering there are just 2 of these in core I think the designers were just as sick of this shit as I am.
Core Wisdom Cleric
You take Astral Storm because that is the wisdom one and wonder why the hell your capstone leader power is a controller power. Still it is a straight up powerup on Fire Storm
Divine Power Laser Cleric
Breath of the Gods is like a crazy grab bag of all your powers. Area damage, pushing, debuff, and surgeless healing. Not bad considering the surgeless healing. Enforced Surrender is a dominate effect with a debuff on a miss. Chains of the Peacemaker is a debuff that you take if you do not like nice things.
Core Muscle Cleric
Godstrike is 7W plus Strength…that’s it. I hate 4e so much right now.
Divine Power Muscle Cleric
Astral Exile is a very late Dismissal type effect that trades the save penalty for 4W damage. That makes it straight out worse than what laser clerics got at level 7 but I bet people who know all the 4e tricks can turn this into an eternal stunlock so it is your best option. Stern Damage is damage plus ongoing damage but also blinds people who hang around that enemy. Its like you force them to where a blindingly obnoxious shirt.
Last edited by shau on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:47 am, edited 4 times in total.
PARAGON PATHS
There are 10 new paragon paths at this level, which seems impressive until you realize that they are based on a template. Its always level 11 ability, level 11 ability that triggers with you spend an action point, level 16 ability, level 11 encounter, level 12 utility, level 20 daily attack. I’m a little embarrassed that I have not picked up on that until now.
The short version of these is that they all pretty much suck compared to Divine Oracle, which gives you some cool abilities and what I think works out to be the most damaging encounter ability in the game. But lets look at these.
Anointed Champion
Not terrible really. You want to be Cha based, like a lot of things in this book. One of your abilities let’s you give yourself your CHA in DR(something) and a power you have lets you spread that around. Level 20 power damage plus a buff that lasts the whole encounter.
Astral Savant
Sucks. Seems to like buffs we don’t care about it or debuffs we don’t care about. The first level ability makes you the immortal type for spell purposes, which sounds like it would be good for polymorph abuse in 3 but does not seem to do anything here.
Battle Chaplain
Sucky muscle cleric option. Level 20 attack only helps people who are currently dieing.
Compassionate Healer
An entire class built around the concept of hurting yourself to heal others. See Life Transference for why that is a bad idea. Bad choice, because not only do you have to hurt yourself but the abilities you get in exchange aren’t that great. Take only if your character wears a gimp mask and a horsehair shirt and the only reason he goes on adventures is because of the ecstasy he gets when monsters pierce his flesh and you need it for roleplaying reasons.
Holy Emissary
Nothing to see here.
Messenger of Peace
A little text block explains that you believe in peace, not pacifism, but still does not explain why a peacenik has decided to become a murderous hobo. Despite the fact that it wants you to use sucky debuff powers, this class ain’t bad at all. The 16th level always on aability that gives a minus 2 to the attacks of nearby enemies makes it worth the price of admission. The powers you get are also nice and the 11th level one is a type of stun.
Miracle Worker
It slightly improves you healing word (one more average hp healed baby) and comes with an encounter based healing interrupt. That’s not bad really.
Seldarane Dedicate
Have you ever blasted a foe with you at will for 1d8 plus Wis and then said to yourself, “Damn, I am just too hardcore. I should start making basic attacks. But not just any basic attacks, basic attacks that depend on one of my tertiary stats.” Then this class is for you. Its for the Clerics who wants to ignore their powers and shoot things with a bow. As far as I can tell, this whole class exists to please one guy who was super impressed by his level one laser/bow cleric back in the beta.
That said, I am probably missing some big exploit like Wizards of the Spiral Tower have.
Stone Keeper
Meh muscle cleric path
Truthseeker
Unmitigated crap until you get to the final daily, which makes a foe helpless for a round, allowing your team to chain coup de grace him.
Epic Destinies
10 epic destinies all of which have the same get up once after you have been killed power and seven of which are titled Avatar of Something. The only thing you might possibly take instead of Demigod is Chosen, which has a similar abilities as the Demigod.
Feats
Laser Clerics had a hard time with the feats in core. Muslce Clerics were okay, because they could take the weapon feats and armor feats and even mutliclass to steal other strength based powers. Laser Clerics multiclassed with Warlord for an extra daily heal in the beginning then got stuck with stuff like toughness and skill training: perception. When I was making a Dwarf Cleric, I had to take away from my Wisodm score if I wanted to be able to have the correct stats for a light shield and scale mail. Than I felt really sad, because I realized I was taking away from my most important stat to try to afford a feat that is pretty much 3rd edition’s dodge.
With Divine Power, not much is changed really. There are 13 new feats for clerics at heroic tier, and 8 of them require a specific race, so don’t expect to fill up much.
Note that I am not going to review the new general divine feats. Most of them are just some BS divine effect happens when you use your racial ability.
But first, lets take a quick overview of the Divine Domains. Divine Domain feats give access 2 feats that come in two flavors, Domain feats and Divinity feats. Domain Feats give a plus 2 bonus to some skill, and buffs certain at wills, so are rarely worth taking. Divinity feats give you an alternate power to use with channel divinity, so they would have been good if not for the fact that Healer’s Mercy came along and made your channel divinity power worth having.
Domain Feats
Most of these are terrible, but a couple add to intimidate, which might be useful for a bullysaurus. Power of Storm gives intimidation plus gives you a more damaging Righteous Brand, which might be worth it. Power of Skill is actually interesting, granting a plus 1 to all skills and allowing you to use an at will in place of your basic attacks, which can be great if properly exploited. Power of Winter makes certain attacks deal more damage and become cold based, so it can be used with wintertouched.
Power of Earth looks like it might be worth because it makes certain attack gain the slow effect. Unfortunately, these are all melee attacks so you can’t kite with it.
Divinity Feats
Healing Mercy is so awesome that the only thing worth discussing is Moon Touched, and I don’t even think that can compare. Moon Touched does not cost a surge, but only effects one ally and is much weaker. When used it gives an ally hp equal to your WIS or CHA. Then at the beginning of your turn you roll a d8. If the number is even they get the roll in hp and the effect ends. If odd, they gain the number in temp hp and get another roll next turn. If they ever gain temp hp when they have temp hp the effect ends.
It’s too annoying to keep track of for my taste.
Heroic Feats
Blessing of Avandra, Darkfire Vitality, Feyborn Fortune, Holy Resolve,
These are all abilities for races that can’t be clerics or are for races that could be clerics if not for the fact that Dragonborn are so much better at that role.
Battle Healer-You get STR in hp when Healing Word is used, maybe decent for muscle clerics
Blessing of Corellon-Free healing surge for an ally when you use a racial, not bad for elf clerics.
Breath of life-Gives temp hp, but really you take this to not fry allies with your dragon breath.
Defensive Grace-Defense buff with Healer’s Mercy, Not much of a change, but it does make one of the best options even better
Defensive Healing Word- Ac buff when healing word used
Dwarf Battle Priest- A shittier Battle Healer. Nothing like a feat that relies on one of your tertiary stats
Healer’s Implement-Actually awesome, now your symbol has the same power as a healing mace.
Pacifist Healer- Great benefit, amazingly shitty downside. You don’t take this, if for no other reason than because it ruins Consecrated Ground.
Shared Perseverance- Human only, plus 1 to saving throws for allies, meh
Paragon Feats (this tier is all about Channel Divinity)
Divine Cleaning-turn undead power, but you took Healer’s Mercy
Extended Healing- more range for healing word. Unfortunately, your at wills still tether you to the almost front line
Greater Fortune- Divine fortune sucks and so does this.
Merciful Power- Healers Mercy grants saves in addition to HP. Awesome.
Radiant Vessel- situational power boost for healing word. Decent
Swift turning- but you took Healer’s Mercy
Epic Feats (all about healing word)
Beatific Healing- Cha to all your heals, score
Epic Turning- you took Healer’s Mercy
Radiant Advantage- CA to people hurt by radiant powers. Meh
Reactive Healing-No action cost for healing word when an ally dies. Pretty sweet actually.
Shared Healing- Lets you redistribute healing surges.
Supreme Healing- Healing Word doubles. Again pretty good.
Rituals
Only 2 worth discussing
Ease Spirit
This ritual gets rid of the death penalty. That would be good, except it takes 2 hours, its level 25, and is expensive as all hell so it sucks like all rituals. Just walk it off like a man
Adjure
Now this is actually awesome. Its impossible to set up, requiring you to trap an immortal for a whole hour somehow, but this is the new version of planar binding. If you manage to get a target, you are only a big knowledge religion check away for having an angel slave for a year and a day. It also cheap, it costs only 3 grand.
There are 10 new paragon paths at this level, which seems impressive until you realize that they are based on a template. Its always level 11 ability, level 11 ability that triggers with you spend an action point, level 16 ability, level 11 encounter, level 12 utility, level 20 daily attack. I’m a little embarrassed that I have not picked up on that until now.
The short version of these is that they all pretty much suck compared to Divine Oracle, which gives you some cool abilities and what I think works out to be the most damaging encounter ability in the game. But lets look at these.
Anointed Champion
Not terrible really. You want to be Cha based, like a lot of things in this book. One of your abilities let’s you give yourself your CHA in DR(something) and a power you have lets you spread that around. Level 20 power damage plus a buff that lasts the whole encounter.
Astral Savant
Sucks. Seems to like buffs we don’t care about it or debuffs we don’t care about. The first level ability makes you the immortal type for spell purposes, which sounds like it would be good for polymorph abuse in 3 but does not seem to do anything here.
Battle Chaplain
Sucky muscle cleric option. Level 20 attack only helps people who are currently dieing.
Compassionate Healer
An entire class built around the concept of hurting yourself to heal others. See Life Transference for why that is a bad idea. Bad choice, because not only do you have to hurt yourself but the abilities you get in exchange aren’t that great. Take only if your character wears a gimp mask and a horsehair shirt and the only reason he goes on adventures is because of the ecstasy he gets when monsters pierce his flesh and you need it for roleplaying reasons.
Holy Emissary
Nothing to see here.
Messenger of Peace
A little text block explains that you believe in peace, not pacifism, but still does not explain why a peacenik has decided to become a murderous hobo. Despite the fact that it wants you to use sucky debuff powers, this class ain’t bad at all. The 16th level always on aability that gives a minus 2 to the attacks of nearby enemies makes it worth the price of admission. The powers you get are also nice and the 11th level one is a type of stun.
Miracle Worker
It slightly improves you healing word (one more average hp healed baby) and comes with an encounter based healing interrupt. That’s not bad really.
Seldarane Dedicate
Have you ever blasted a foe with you at will for 1d8 plus Wis and then said to yourself, “Damn, I am just too hardcore. I should start making basic attacks. But not just any basic attacks, basic attacks that depend on one of my tertiary stats.” Then this class is for you. Its for the Clerics who wants to ignore their powers and shoot things with a bow. As far as I can tell, this whole class exists to please one guy who was super impressed by his level one laser/bow cleric back in the beta.
That said, I am probably missing some big exploit like Wizards of the Spiral Tower have.
Stone Keeper
Meh muscle cleric path
Truthseeker
Unmitigated crap until you get to the final daily, which makes a foe helpless for a round, allowing your team to chain coup de grace him.
Epic Destinies
10 epic destinies all of which have the same get up once after you have been killed power and seven of which are titled Avatar of Something. The only thing you might possibly take instead of Demigod is Chosen, which has a similar abilities as the Demigod.
Feats
Laser Clerics had a hard time with the feats in core. Muslce Clerics were okay, because they could take the weapon feats and armor feats and even mutliclass to steal other strength based powers. Laser Clerics multiclassed with Warlord for an extra daily heal in the beginning then got stuck with stuff like toughness and skill training: perception. When I was making a Dwarf Cleric, I had to take away from my Wisodm score if I wanted to be able to have the correct stats for a light shield and scale mail. Than I felt really sad, because I realized I was taking away from my most important stat to try to afford a feat that is pretty much 3rd edition’s dodge.
With Divine Power, not much is changed really. There are 13 new feats for clerics at heroic tier, and 8 of them require a specific race, so don’t expect to fill up much.
Note that I am not going to review the new general divine feats. Most of them are just some BS divine effect happens when you use your racial ability.
But first, lets take a quick overview of the Divine Domains. Divine Domain feats give access 2 feats that come in two flavors, Domain feats and Divinity feats. Domain Feats give a plus 2 bonus to some skill, and buffs certain at wills, so are rarely worth taking. Divinity feats give you an alternate power to use with channel divinity, so they would have been good if not for the fact that Healer’s Mercy came along and made your channel divinity power worth having.
Domain Feats
Most of these are terrible, but a couple add to intimidate, which might be useful for a bullysaurus. Power of Storm gives intimidation plus gives you a more damaging Righteous Brand, which might be worth it. Power of Skill is actually interesting, granting a plus 1 to all skills and allowing you to use an at will in place of your basic attacks, which can be great if properly exploited. Power of Winter makes certain attacks deal more damage and become cold based, so it can be used with wintertouched.
Power of Earth looks like it might be worth because it makes certain attack gain the slow effect. Unfortunately, these are all melee attacks so you can’t kite with it.
Divinity Feats
Healing Mercy is so awesome that the only thing worth discussing is Moon Touched, and I don’t even think that can compare. Moon Touched does not cost a surge, but only effects one ally and is much weaker. When used it gives an ally hp equal to your WIS or CHA. Then at the beginning of your turn you roll a d8. If the number is even they get the roll in hp and the effect ends. If odd, they gain the number in temp hp and get another roll next turn. If they ever gain temp hp when they have temp hp the effect ends.
It’s too annoying to keep track of for my taste.
Heroic Feats
Blessing of Avandra, Darkfire Vitality, Feyborn Fortune, Holy Resolve,
These are all abilities for races that can’t be clerics or are for races that could be clerics if not for the fact that Dragonborn are so much better at that role.
Battle Healer-You get STR in hp when Healing Word is used, maybe decent for muscle clerics
Blessing of Corellon-Free healing surge for an ally when you use a racial, not bad for elf clerics.
Breath of life-Gives temp hp, but really you take this to not fry allies with your dragon breath.
Defensive Grace-Defense buff with Healer’s Mercy, Not much of a change, but it does make one of the best options even better
Defensive Healing Word- Ac buff when healing word used
Dwarf Battle Priest- A shittier Battle Healer. Nothing like a feat that relies on one of your tertiary stats
Healer’s Implement-Actually awesome, now your symbol has the same power as a healing mace.
Pacifist Healer- Great benefit, amazingly shitty downside. You don’t take this, if for no other reason than because it ruins Consecrated Ground.
Shared Perseverance- Human only, plus 1 to saving throws for allies, meh
Paragon Feats (this tier is all about Channel Divinity)
Divine Cleaning-turn undead power, but you took Healer’s Mercy
Extended Healing- more range for healing word. Unfortunately, your at wills still tether you to the almost front line
Greater Fortune- Divine fortune sucks and so does this.
Merciful Power- Healers Mercy grants saves in addition to HP. Awesome.
Radiant Vessel- situational power boost for healing word. Decent
Swift turning- but you took Healer’s Mercy
Epic Feats (all about healing word)
Beatific Healing- Cha to all your heals, score
Epic Turning- you took Healer’s Mercy
Radiant Advantage- CA to people hurt by radiant powers. Meh
Reactive Healing-No action cost for healing word when an ally dies. Pretty sweet actually.
Shared Healing- Lets you redistribute healing surges.
Supreme Healing- Healing Word doubles. Again pretty good.
Rituals
Only 2 worth discussing
Ease Spirit
This ritual gets rid of the death penalty. That would be good, except it takes 2 hours, its level 25, and is expensive as all hell so it sucks like all rituals. Just walk it off like a man
Adjure
Now this is actually awesome. Its impossible to set up, requiring you to trap an immortal for a whole hour somehow, but this is the new version of planar binding. If you manage to get a target, you are only a big knowledge religion check away for having an angel slave for a year and a day. It also cheap, it costs only 3 grand.
Last edited by shau on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Lago PARANOIA
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I have some issues with your clerical list.
At-Wills: Sacred Flame is mandatory at higher levels. Granting saving throws as an At-Will is like sticking your genitals into a rainbow.
The Channel Divinity thing: At low levels it's indispensable but at higher levels becomes obsolete; you can throw out enough heals and burning a healing surge with no bennies attached to it is kind of a waste, especially if you're in padded-sumo land. I'd keep it until around level 10 or so.
Level 1 Encounter: I can't believe that you ragged on Cause Fear. It's awesome. Use it as a readied action to an enemy moving in range of the melee guys. They lose their attack and they get one or more opportunity attacks in the face from running away.
Level 2 Utility: If you have the Mark of Shielding feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting, the Daily Shield of Faith is actually pretty damn gar. But there's absolutely no reason to grab it over Life Transference if you're doing anything other than a 1 or 2 encounter workday. This power is an immense extension to your workday between encounters.
Level 3 Encounter; If you are a laser cleric, you take Command. You drop the guy you don't like prone and daze them. If your melee pals shift backwards and the monsters don't have reach (which is rare at low levels anyway) they lose a turn. Later, when you get Blade Barrier, you play murder pinball with this, too.
Level 9 Daily: If for some reason you don't like Blade Barrier (it's awesome even if you don't use murder pinball) Divine Power can't be beat. It regenerates 250 hit points so if you win the battle, that's potentially two or three healing surges you saved.
Level 10 Utilities: Why wouldn't you take both Spirit of Healing and/or Stream of Life for level 6 and 10? You burn a friggin' daily power and if you're out of combat everyone regains all of their hit points without burning surges. Stream of Life is definitely harder to coordinate for the healing (which is why I suggest grabbing that one at level 10) but it's too legit 2 quit.
Astral Refuge sucks. I would not want to take one of my buddies out of combat for that long. Out of combat it still sucks because it burns healing surges without graning a bonus.
Level 13: Deadly Lure is a good power power. I don't know why you're knocking it. Use it against a monster that's entangled in melee. Hilarity ensues. It's not as good as cause fear since, you know, the monster ends up next to you but drawing an attack while getting 2 to 4 OAs from your party is a good use of an encounter power. While we're on the subject, I think it's kind of amazing how the laser cleric is the only ranged class that actually interacts well with a melee-heavy party--other than the wizard, but that's because they pwn everything already.
Level 15 Daily: I would take Blade Barrier or Dismissal, depending on which power you didn't select for level 9.
At-Wills: Sacred Flame is mandatory at higher levels. Granting saving throws as an At-Will is like sticking your genitals into a rainbow.
The Channel Divinity thing: At low levels it's indispensable but at higher levels becomes obsolete; you can throw out enough heals and burning a healing surge with no bennies attached to it is kind of a waste, especially if you're in padded-sumo land. I'd keep it until around level 10 or so.
Level 1 Encounter: I can't believe that you ragged on Cause Fear. It's awesome. Use it as a readied action to an enemy moving in range of the melee guys. They lose their attack and they get one or more opportunity attacks in the face from running away.
Level 2 Utility: If you have the Mark of Shielding feat from the Eberron Campaign Setting, the Daily Shield of Faith is actually pretty damn gar. But there's absolutely no reason to grab it over Life Transference if you're doing anything other than a 1 or 2 encounter workday. This power is an immense extension to your workday between encounters.
Level 3 Encounter; If you are a laser cleric, you take Command. You drop the guy you don't like prone and daze them. If your melee pals shift backwards and the monsters don't have reach (which is rare at low levels anyway) they lose a turn. Later, when you get Blade Barrier, you play murder pinball with this, too.
Level 9 Daily: If for some reason you don't like Blade Barrier (it's awesome even if you don't use murder pinball) Divine Power can't be beat. It regenerates 250 hit points so if you win the battle, that's potentially two or three healing surges you saved.
Level 10 Utilities: Why wouldn't you take both Spirit of Healing and/or Stream of Life for level 6 and 10? You burn a friggin' daily power and if you're out of combat everyone regains all of their hit points without burning surges. Stream of Life is definitely harder to coordinate for the healing (which is why I suggest grabbing that one at level 10) but it's too legit 2 quit.
Astral Refuge sucks. I would not want to take one of my buddies out of combat for that long. Out of combat it still sucks because it burns healing surges without graning a bonus.
Level 13: Deadly Lure is a good power power. I don't know why you're knocking it. Use it against a monster that's entangled in melee. Hilarity ensues. It's not as good as cause fear since, you know, the monster ends up next to you but drawing an attack while getting 2 to 4 OAs from your party is a good use of an encounter power. While we're on the subject, I think it's kind of amazing how the laser cleric is the only ranged class that actually interacts well with a melee-heavy party--other than the wizard, but that's because they pwn everything already.
Level 15 Daily: I would take Blade Barrier or Dismissal, depending on which power you didn't select for level 9.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Agreed, I meant to put that in there but I forgot.Lago PARANOIA wrote:I have some issues with your clerical list.
At-Wills: Sacred Flame is mandatory at higher levels. Granting saving throws as an At-Will is like sticking your genitals into a rainbow.
I still don't see why you can't see how awesome this is, though I have mostly just played the low levels. It is a heal for everyone in the party and it costs you nothing character wise. It can't go obsolete because there is nothing to trade it in for. The only thing you lose is Turn Undead which you probably forgot you even had. Even at its worst and everyone is out of healing surges it still gives everyone 1 hp plus healing boosts and that is enough to turn a tpk into a win. Plus at level 10 you can upgrade it to give everyone a save as well.The Channel Divinity thing: At low levels it's indispensable but at higher levels becomes obsolete; you can throw out enough heals and burning a healing surge with no bennies attached to it is kind of a waste, especially if you're in padded-sumo land. I'd keep it until around level 10 or so.
It's not a efficient healing power, its a save your ass power. And its all but free.
Good trick, I never thought of that. Of course, you can pull almost the same hack with any of the push powers. I would still rather have Exacting Utterance personally.Level 1 Encounter: I can't believe that you ragged on Cause Fear. It's awesome. Use it as a readied action to an enemy moving in range of the melee guys. They lose their attack and they get one or more opportunity attacks in the face from running away.
Disagree for the reasons I put above. You are trading one of you own healing surges for two healing surges of someone else. That sounds good, but remember you are taking those surges from the only guy in the party who can't benefit form things like Astral Sign and Spirit of Healing. If you have a paladin or another cleric in your party you can set up a triangle trade thing, but otherwise you are taking surges away from the character most likely to need them.Level 2 Utility: But there's absolutely no reason to grab it over Life Transference if you're doing anything other than a 1 or 2 encounter workday. This power is an immense extension to your workday between encounters.
Command's not bad, but its a daze and slide or prone. It's not anything to get excited about. You can totally turn that into a stun if your team works with you, but you can do that with any prone power and honestly in almost all circumstances I think I would rather be passing out Astral Sign.Level 3 Encounter; If you are a laser cleric, you take Command. You drop the guy you don't like prone and daze them. If your melee pals shift backwards and the monsters don't have reach (which is rare at low levels anyway) they lose a turn. Later, when you get Blade Barrier, you play murder pinball with this, too.
I like Blade Barrier but it is competing with Dismissal and Rebuke Violence, which take the enemy out of combat until they make a save that they will never make if you have the right set up. That's like sleep level awesome.Level 9 Daily: If for some reason you don't like Blade Barrier (it's awesome even if you don't use murder pinball) Divine Power can't be beat. It regenerates 250 hit points so if you win the battle, that's potentially two or three healing surges you saved.
Divine Fury's better than I made it sound there but it still screams weak version of Spirit of Healing to me and I hate being offered a weaker version of something I got a few levels ago as an option. BTW, how are you getting around the no bag of rats restriction for after combat healing?
Stream of life is great and my only excuse as to why I did suggest taking it at level 10 is I tend to look at the new powers I am being giving in making my selection instead of the old ones (just like in 3.e when I would put fourth level spells in 4th level slots, not 3rd or 2nd ones.) Still, I am not seeing how Stream of life is all the better than Sacred Beneficence, unless you and the DM have a pact not to attack the healer and thus taking ever more damage personally is not an issue.Level 10 Utilities: Why wouldn't you take both Spirit of Healing and/or Stream of Life for level 6 and 10? You burn a friggin' daily power and if you're out of combat everyone regains all of their hit points without burning surges. Stream of Life is definitely harder to coordinate for the healing (which is why I suggest grabbing that one at level 10) but it's too legit 2 quit.
Again I have to ask how you do after battle healing with Spirit of Healing.
Astral Refuge does suck. That's why I said you should laugh at it.Astral Refuge sucks. I would not want to take one of my buddies out of combat for that long. Out of combat it still sucks because it burns healing surges without graning a bonus.
Are you being serious here? You arguing that a level 13 power, which you openly admit is worse than a level 1 power, is a good power. If you really want to build around leading an enemy through opportunity attack land, you stick with Cause Fear. That fact that the authors want you to take a worse version of that 12 levels later is a joke and I don't know why you think its good.Level 13: Deadly Lure is a good power power. I don't know why you're knocking it. Use it against a monster that's entangled in melee. Hilarity ensues. It's not as good as cause fear since, you know, the monster ends up next to you but drawing an attack while getting 2 to 4 OAs from your party is a good use of an encounter power. While we're on the subject, I think it's kind of amazing how the laser cleric is the only ranged class that actually interacts well with a melee-heavy party--other than the wizard, but that's because they pwn everything already.
That's basically what I said, although for me its Dismissal or Rebuke Violence.Level 15 Daily: I would take Blade Barrier or Dismissal, depending on which power you didn't select for level 9
Last edited by shau on Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Wait. If you count as your own enemy, what prevents you from putting an Astral Sigil on yourself out of combat and telling your friends to punch you very softly? That might work even in games where you aren't allowed to target objects.
Last edited by Avoraciopoctules on Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Josh_Kablack
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But for truly extreme level 30 healination it just might be worth trading that sweet sweet +2 to two stat bonus for the +25 healing on each Astral Seal that Saint yields.10 epic destinies all of which have the same get up once after you have been killed power and seven of which are titled Avatar of Something. The only thing you might possibly take instead of Demigod is Chosen, which has a similar abilities as the Demigod.
You really need allies with nondamaging attack powers. Preferably nondamaging attack powers that grant healing to you. If only there was such an at-will power, you know, like the power we're discussing right now.Wait. If you count as your own enemy, what prevents you from putting an Astral Sigil on yourself out of combat and telling your friends to punch you very softly?
Once again, the best party in 4e is 4 of the same class with the same build.
For added fun, play them all as pacifists who insist that violence is not the answer - because for that party the mechanics back it up - Team Cleric throws down an array of nondamaging unlimited healing and team monster fails to keep up with it. You hit infinite grind and eventually sit down to resolve your differences with the Otyugh via nonviolent means.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
You don't count as your own enemy. Powers only trigger from credible threats, which doesn't include your friends lightly tapping you on the shoulder.Avoraciopoctules wrote:Wait. If you count as your own enemy, what prevents you from putting an Astral Sigil on yourself out of combat and telling your friends to punch you very softly? That might work even in games where you aren't allowed to target objects.
Yes you do.Pinniped wrote:You don't count as your own enemy.
4e PHB, p. 57 under "Target", found by Absentminded Wizard wrote:When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects you and one or more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power’s effect along with your team-mates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.
What are credible threats? An enraged mosquito? A storm giant lady that wants to hug you? We're back to "grants experience or honor when killed", only experience is an abstract reward and powers not working unless the situation escalates is absolutely terrible.Pinniped wrote:Powers only trigger from credible threats, which doesn't include your friends lightly tapping you on the shoulder.
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Avoraciopoctules
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Ah, alright. Thank you. Perhaps I should try running a 4e game simply to give myself a better idea of what people are talking about when it is discussed. So far, I skimmed through some of the core books when I had the opportunity and once attended someone else's game (but we switched over to 3e after giving up midway through character creation.)
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Lago PARANOIA
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Oh, yeah, I forgot the save thing there. That'll still keep it useful.shau wrote: I still don't see why you can't see how awesome this is, though I have mostly just played the low levels. It is a heal for everyone in the party and it costs you nothing character wise. It can't go obsolete because there is nothing to trade it in for. The only thing you lose is Turn Undead which you probably forgot you even had. Even at its worst and everyone is out of healing surges it still gives everyone 1 hp plus healing boosts and that is enough to turn a tpk into a win. Plus at level 10 you can upgrade it to give everyone a save as well.
It's not a efficient healing power, its a save your ass power. And its all but free.
The reason why I was ragging on it at higher levels is that with padded sumo and additional healing effect you don't need emergency healing. And if you do need it you have other powers for it. Unless your DM has a 'no undead' policy there reaches a breakpoint where Healer's Mercy won't get used at all. But again, I forgot the save thing.
Nope. Forced movement (push, pull, and slide) do not draw OAs. You need this power.Good trick, I never thought of that. Of course, you can pull almost the same hack with any of the push powers. I would still rather have Exacting Utterance personally.
It's worth it even when you use it by itself. Because you are a goddamn cleric with Healer's Armor/Mace of Healing/Healer's Implement/etc. This makes this power very efficient when combined with, say, Healing Word. To wit:Disagree for the reasons I put above. You are trading one of you own healing surges for two healing surges of someone else. That sounds good, but remember you are taking those surges from the only guy in the party who can't benefit form things like Astral Sign and Spirit of Healing. If you have a paladin or another cleric in your party you can set up a triangle trade thing, but otherwise you are taking surges away from the character most likely to need them.
Level 7 cleric (52 hit points, HS 13) has 18 WIS, the Healer's Implement feat with a +2 symbol and a +1 Healing Mace. Which means with healing word They heal HS value + 2d6 + 7 for an average of 27 hit points. It's now time to heal between encounters. Level 7 cleric uses Life Transference twice on someone, which means that their buddy heals 40 hit points at the cost of the cleric losing 26 hit points, which the cleric gets back with healing word
Or to wit: A buddy can burn a healing surge and get back 27 hit points. Or you can burn one and they get 40 hit points. As you aptly noted, the downside is that it's a lot harder for you to find surgeless healing yourself so your own are precious. This won't completely replace healing word between encounters but it does have the admirable effect of stretching out the health of marginal frontline classes like the rogue and ranger who are both a healing surge down from you and have a riskier combat scheme.
It's not all that great, best used for murder pinball or like you described. But it's the best out of bad alternatives.Command's not bad, but its a daze and slide or prone. It's not anything to get excited about. You can totally turn that into a stun if your team works with you, but you can do that with any prone power and honestly in almost all circumstances I think I would rather be passing out Astral Sign.
You don't. A Razor Cleric just pops the Divine Power during the normal course of battle and just has enough brains not to forget about things they did a round or two ago. The regeneration lasts for 5 minutes and doesn't have a stupid restriction like not working if the cleric is bloodied.Divine Fury's better than I made it sound there but it still screams weak version of Spirit of Healing to me and I hate being offered a weaker version of something I got a few levels ago as an option. BTW, how are you getting around the no bag of rats restriction for after combat healing?
Sorry, that was ambiguous. I meant to say Stream of Life pretty much returns everyone in the party to full.Stream of life is great and my only excuse as to why I did suggest taking it at level 10 is I tend to look at the new powers I am being giving in making my selection instead of the old ones (just like in 3.e when I would put fourth level spells in 4th level slots, not 3rd or 2nd ones.) Still, I am not seeing how Stream of life is all the better than Sacred Beneficence, unless you and the DM have a pact not to attack the healer and thus taking ever more damage personally is not an issue.
Again I have to ask how you do after battle healing with Spirit of Healing.
shau, 4E is extremely bad at following the 'high level powers are better than low level powers' paradigm for anything other than strict damage. If you see two good choices for a level you should keep them in mind because there's a very high chance that the next tier of powers has nothing but duds in them.
Anyway, I can't believe that you're knocking Stream of Life. You don't need to form a pact with the DM. SoL hands out ridiculous amounts of healing for low damage. A level 10 cleric will have a 65 hit points, with a healing surge value of 16, bare-ass minimum. You should without too much trouble have a +10 to any healing you throw out. Which means a healing word heals you of a cool 33 hit points, or about 7 rounds worth of damage per healing surge. With this seven rounds you throw out 175 points of healing for a daily. That's a crazy-good trade for a healing surge.
I'm being dead serious here. Yes, it's worse than Cause Fear in almost every way you care about. But you still wheedle out OAs, which means a lot of damage, especially when combined with the vulnerability feature. It's sort of like 3.5E haste; yes, it's nerfed down considerably from what you're used to, but if you're a sword-based class Boots of Haste are still primo things to put on your feet.Are you being serious here? You arguing that a level 13 power, which you openly admit is worse than a level 1 power, is a good power. If you really want to build around leading an enemy through opportunity attack land, you stick with Cause Fear. That fact that the authors want you to take a worse version of that 12 levels later is a joke and I don't know why you think its good.
Dammit, how did I miss Rebuke Violence? Get that shit. Now. Hurry.That's basically what I said, although for me its Dismissal or Rebuke Violence.
By the by, you should also be looking into backing that ass up with a Phrenic Crown from the AV (adds a -1 penalty to saving throws vs. will per tier)
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It doesn't explicitly say, "You do not count as an enemy to yourself" only because you have to be intentionally trying to misread the rules to possibly come up with that interpretation. That's absurd.Starmaker wrote:Yes you do.Pinniped wrote:You don't count as your own enemy.4e PHB, p. 57 under "Target", found by Absentminded Wizard wrote:When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects you and one or more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power’s effect along with your team-mates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.
Credible threats are what your DM considers to be credible threats. That's the advantage of having a DM -- it lets you interject common sense when it's needed. The gods don't lend their power to someone who's getting bitten by a mosquito, a berserker doesn't get an adrenaline rush when a friend taps him on the shoulder, a tiefling doesn't get enraged when he pricks his own finger.Starmaker wrote:What are credible threats? An enraged mosquito? A storm giant lady that wants to hug you? We're back to "grants experience or honor when killed", only experience is an abstract reward and powers not working unless the situation escalates is absolutely terrible.Pinniped wrote:Powers only trigger from credible threats, which doesn't include your friends lightly tapping you on the shoulder.
If anything, a "use some common sense" rule makes 4e less like an RPG, while your utterly literal reading of the DMG makes it more like one.
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Username17
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Oh fuck off. It's absurd that squares are "adjacent" to themselves. It's absurd that "all of your allies" doesn't include you. There are lots of things that are absurd in the 4e rules. If you throw out everything that's "absurd" about 4e, you have to dump out the entire game.Pinniped wrote:It doesn't explicitly say, "You do not count as an enemy to yourself" only because you have to be intentionally trying to misread the rules to possibly come up with that interpretation. That's absurd.
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Lago PARANOIA
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No, it doesn't. That rule just reminds us of the fact that 4E is an attempt to shoehorn an MMORPG into a tabletop game.If anything, a "use some common sense" rule makes 4e less like an RPG, while your utterly literal reading of the DMG makes it more like one.
The term 'enemy' 'ally' and 'credible threat' are completely meaningless from an in-universe standpoint. All it reminds us is that special music plays when the characters go 'in combat' and you can only use powers on people who have red circles underneath their sprite.
The previous editions of D&D didn't engage in this stupid bullshit. There was no such thing as being 'in combat' or 'credible threats'. So why did 4th Edition embrace this dumbass paradigm?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
I don't know the "squares are adjacent to themselves" thing, I've not seen that before. Do you have a link? As for allies, does "All of my allies died that day" imply the speaker is dead as well?FrankTrollman wrote:Oh fuck off. It's absurd that squares are "adjacent" to themselves. It's absurd that "all of your allies" doesn't include you. There are lots of things that are absurd in the 4e rules. If you throw out everything that's "absurd" about 4e, you have to dump out the entire game.
You can't possibly tell me that distinguishing between getting kicked in the shin and getting stabbed in the throat was invented by MMORPGs. That's all that rule is, a means of distinguishing between threats and non-threats. From an in-universe standpoint, a character can tell you who his enemies and allies are, so in what sense are those terms meaningless?Lago PARANOIA wrote:No, it doesn't. That rule just reminds us of the fact that 4E is an attempt to shoehorn an MMORPG into a tabletop game.If anything, a "use some common sense" rule makes 4e less like an RPG, while your utterly literal reading of the DMG makes it more like one.
The term 'enemy' 'ally' and 'credible threat' are completely meaningless from an in-universe standpoint.
Yes, both 4e's "credible threat" rule and WoW's "grants honor or experience" rule stem from the same idea, that some powers/rules/etc. only make sense (from both the simulation and mechanical perspective) in context. WoW solves this problem with a formula, while D&D leaves it to the DM to make the call. Two completely different rules to address the same dilemma.
What would you do instead? Would you simply throw out the ability for the DM to make that judgment?
Because there are people out there who will read the rules as written, take every single word of them literally, and then have their characters march around smacking a bag of rats as if that makes sense from any perspective.The previous editions of D&D didn't engage in this stupid bullshit. There was no such thing as being 'in combat' or 'credible threats'. So why did 4th Edition embrace this dumbass paradigm?
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Lago PARANOIA
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Here have been some of the solutions proposed for the great cleave feat.Pinniped wrote: Because there are people out there who will read the rules as written, take every single word of them literally, and then have their characters march around smacking a bag of rats as if that makes sense from any perspective.
1) Eliminate or rewrite the great cleave feat altogether.
2) You can only use cleave against a foe once per round. (curbs abuse, but still doesn't stop the 'declare OA against fleeing rat' problem)
3) Disallow great cleave to work off any attacks that comes from an effect that makes more than one attack per declaration of the ability or an attack that happens outside of your turn. Needs an additional clause.
A) You can't take OAs on your own turn unless an effect specifically states that you can. Note that this combo can happen again if someone ever publishes an ability that's like 'you can take OAs on your own turn'.
4) Disallow 'bonus attacks' off of Whirlwind--one of the worse solutions, since Whirlwind was one of the few saving graces of TWFing and of course this solution became ineffective when other multi-attack powers were published like in Book of Nine Swords.
5) Leave everything as-is, but publish a clause that you can't attack rats or slugs or whatever.
Why on earth would you pick #5 as a solution? The only possible reason why you would do this is out of sheer laziness.
You know what? #5 not even a rule, let alone a solution; that's a naked codification of the Oberoni Fallacy. 'There's not a problem with the targetting system because there's a rule that lets you negate problems with the targetting system!'
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
The English language definition is immaterial. Only the game's presented definition. Which is very explicit:Pinniped wrote:As for allies, does "All of my allies died that day" imply the speaker is dead as well?
1) You are not your own ally.
2) All creatures that are not your ally are your enemy.
Therefore: You are an enemy to yourself.
I think I found your problem. If you don't suck at designing powers, you don't need that distinction.Pinniped wrote:that some powers/rules/etc. only make sense (from both the simulation and mechanical perspective)
Yes, I would throw out the ability for the DM to determine who I like and who I don't like.Pinniped wrote:What would you do instead? Would you simply throw out the ability for the DM to make that judgment?
If I want someone to benefit from my zone, they will benefit, and if I want someone to not benefit, they will not benefit. And if for damn sakes I can make my allies day better, I should damn well be able to do the same to myself.
There are exactly zero situations ever in the history of anything in which taking the ability of a player to determine who is affected by a power is a good thing.
Last edited by Kaelik on Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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spasheridan
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The fact that, by definition, I can not shoot a ray of frost at a glass of water to make ice cubes infuriates me about 4th ed. The fact that I can selectively target some AoE spells to not hit my friends, yet I cannot also avoid hitting innocents in the same AoE, continues my annoyance about this rule set.
In deciding how to resolve disputes with 4th ed, I use this rule of thumb that I have gleaned from TGD.
4th ed = you can't have nice things.
I look at the possible solutions to the dispute, and pick the one that screws the player over the most. It will invariably be the correct answers.
In deciding how to resolve disputes with 4th ed, I use this rule of thumb that I have gleaned from TGD.
4th ed = you can't have nice things.
I look at the possible solutions to the dispute, and pick the one that screws the player over the most. It will invariably be the correct answers.
The big problem is that this rule does not make sense. There is an actually a trade off happening between having a coherent gameworld and not having the combat game break apart.Pinniped wrote: Yes, both 4e's "credible threat" rule and WoW's "grants honor or experience" rule stem from the same idea, that some powers/rules/etc. only make sense (from both the simulation and mechanical perspective) in context.
If a cleric uses Sacred Flame against a goblin, an ally gets temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on a rock, an ally does not get temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on a rat, an ally does not get temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on an ally, an ally does not get temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on that same goblin several levels later, an ally does not get temp hp.
The reason for this is obvious, because 4e curls up and dies if powers start working like you would imagine they logically would. But in fixing that 4e scraps anything like a sensible game world.
Last edited by shau on Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The last line of that rule is "'Creature' or 'creatures' means allies and enemies both, as well as you." "As well as you" is redundant, there, unless "you" isn't included in either "allies" or "enemies".Kaelik wrote:The English language definition is immaterial. Only the game's presented definition. Which is very explicit:Pinniped wrote:As for allies, does "All of my allies died that day" imply the speaker is dead as well?
1) You are not your own ally.
2) All creatures that are not your ally are your enemy.
Therefore: You are an enemy to yourself.
But more importantly, the English language is immaterial? Are you arguing that the DMG should be read like a religious text and run like computer code, with no provisions made for common sense?
So the very idea of "An at-will power that heals you when you strike an enemy (but doesn't grant free, unlimited healing when not engaged in battle)" sucks? How do you accomplish that without the distinction between a threat and a non-threat?I think I found your problem. If you don't suck at designing powers, you don't need that distinction.Pinniped wrote:that some powers/rules/etc. only make sense (from both the simulation and mechanical perspective)
Except it's not like we're talking about an ambiguous situation, here, we're talking about a player "declaring" someone his enemy solely to exploit the mechanics. How's is that good gameplay or good roleplaying?Yes, I would throw out the ability for the DM to determine who I like and who I don't like.Pinniped wrote:What would you do instead? Would you simply throw out the ability for the DM to make that judgment?
In nearly all cases, you can. The few cases where you can't tend to be of the "your god empowers you to help another" variety, or the "you selflessly take (some) damage to prevent your ally from taking (more) damage" variety. I wouldn't want to discard the first possibility for thematic reasons, and I wouldn't want to discard the second for gameplay reasons.And if for damn sakes I can make my allies day better, I should damn well be able to do the same to myself.
"I have a monkey in this crate, see, and since one of my 'allies' isn't aware of the combat, the surprise round..."There are exactly zero situations ever in the history of anything in which taking the ability of a player to determine who is affected by a power is a good thing.
"No, stop being silly."
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CatharzGodfoot
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Yeah, that's obviously a problem with allowing players to consider unobservant characters allies rather than a problem with the surprise rules.Pinniped wrote:"I have a monkey in this crate, see, and since one of my 'allies' isn't aware of the combat, the surprise round..."There are exactly zero situations ever in the history of anything in which taking the ability of a player to determine who is affected by a power is a good thing.
"No, stop being silly."
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack
You can. You say to your DM, "I use my ray of frost to freeze this water", and he says, "Okay." If he says, "No, that's not written in the rulebook, and we must obey the rulebook literally", then you have a bad DM.spasheridan wrote:The fact that, by definition, I can not shoot a ray of frost at a glass of water to make ice cubes infuriates me about 4th ed.
Alternatively, show me the game where the rulebook includes rules for making ice with water and a ray of frost.
If the innocents are on your side, then they can be considered your allies. If they're willing to be excluded from such an effect, they can be.The fact that I can selectively target some AoE spells to not hit my friends, yet I cannot also avoid hitting innocents in the same AoE, continues my annoyance about this rule set.
Isn't the general consensus that 4e is far too easy on the players, giving everyone access to self-healing and encouraging players to pick their own magic items and such?In deciding how to resolve disputes with 4th ed, I use this rule of thumb that I have gleaned from TGD.
4th ed = you can't have nice things.
I look at the possible solutions to the dispute, and pick the one that screws the player over the most. It will invariably be the correct answers.
It's logical (as logical as any of this can be) for a divine power to only function when doing the work of the divine. Slaughtering goblins who can't even begin to fight back isn't a particularly holy task.shau wrote:If a cleric uses Sacred Flame against a goblin, an ally gets temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on a rock, an ally does not get temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on a rat, an ally does not get temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on an ally, an ally does not get temp hp.
If he uses Sacred Flame on that same goblin several levels later, an ally does not get temp hp.
The reason for this is obvious, because 4e curls up and dies if powers start working like you would imagine they logically would. But in fixing that 4e scraps anything like a sensible game world.